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F1's biggest wastes of potential


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#501 Collombin

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 20:33

I suppose the Alan Jones and Williams combination was way more successful than could have been predicted for both parties.

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#502 ensign14

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 20:55

Surely nobody thought that the chap who had scored 0 points for March and had been totally marmelized by Peterson, and 2 points for BRM in a GP-winning car, would become the dominant driver of the mid-seventies.



#503 eibyyz

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 20:59

The Parnelli F1 team, if they'd put more effort into it, they probably could have reached the heights of Penake. (Winning a race is better than just 6 points in one and a bit seasons) Only Mario Andretti seemed to take the Parnelli F1 entry seriously and wished for everyone else involved to do likewise and they just wouldn't play ball. Is it really any wonder Andretti broke away from his contract with Parnelli when a drive at Lotus became available?

 

I thought it was the other way around-Miletich pulled the plug on Mario?  



#504 eibyyz

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 21:04

Toyota in F1.

 

Beatrice-Haas in F1.



#505 Beri

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 04:56

Beatrice-Haas in F1.


Because of Oatley? Otherwise it was not a well undertaken effort in general.

#506 EvilPhil II

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 10:59

What about the Jordan 191?

If Schumacher was able to land a 7th on the grid in his first runs in the car it always makes me wonder if that car was actually capable of so much more with the right driver(s).

#507 Risil

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 11:07

Imagine what it could've done in the hands of Heinz-Harald Frentzen!!!



#508 EvilPhil II

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 11:45

Imagine what it could've done in the hands of Heinz-Harald Frentzen!!!


Haha I probably should have been more specific. I was meaning during the entire season.

#509 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 11:55

I think the absolute qualifying position doesn't tell the whole story though. He was 3.4 seconds off pole and 0.7 seconds behind 6th place. I'm not sure an experienced top driver would have been much nearer the front.



#510 noikeee

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 12:51

I think the absolute qualifying position doesn't tell the whole story though. He was 3.4 seconds off pole and 0.7 seconds behind 6th place. I'm not sure an experienced top driver would have been much nearer the front.


Early 1990s qualifying times compared to now, are a bit like dog years vs human years, or goals in the Eredivisie vs goals in the Premier League.

But yeah I don't think Senna is qualifying that car much further up

#511 Burai

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 13:49

Roberto Moreno outqualified de Cesaris by a similar margin in that Jordan next time out in Monza as well.

 

Jordan and Schumacher's debuts have become the stuff of legend, but for me the real stand-out midfield performance in 1991 was Pierluigi Martini in the Minardi.



#512 Beri

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 14:27

Martini has always been an underrated driver in my opinion.

#513 WonderWoman61

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 14:55

I thought it was the other way around-Miletich pulled the plug on Mario?

Either way, one certainly told the other he can wipe his ass with the existing contract, that's for sure!

#514 William Hunt

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 15:51

What about the Jordan 191?

If Schumacher was able to land a 7th on the grid in his first runs in the car it always makes me wonder if that car was actually capable of so much more with the right driver(s).

 

It had quick drivers. Remember: Gachot set  the fastest race lap in Budapest, de Cesaris almost won at Spa.



#515 eibyyz

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 16:00

Strange to say about a man who won twelve GPs, but: Carlos Reutemann.  I take no pleasure in that, I was a huge fan.



#516 Spillage

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 20:59

Strange to say about a man who won twelve GPs, but: Carlos Reutemann.  I take no pleasure in that, I was a huge fan.

Seems to have been a very hit-and-miss driver. Outstanding on his day but not terribly consistent. There was surely a pretty good chance of the title in 1982 if he hadn't ajcked it in after two rounds.



#517 Taxi

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:08

The Toyota project in F1 was a big waste of potential and money. They should have won and yet because of lack of  killer instinct, consitency and top drivers they fel short. 



#518 PlatenGlass

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:48

Seems to have been a very hit-and-miss driver. Outstanding on his day but not terribly consistent. There was surely a pretty good chance of the title in 1982 if he hadn't ajcked it in after two rounds.

Maybe but I would say Rosberg > Reutemann. But it would have depended on lots of things like their individual levels of reliability.

#519 absinthedude

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:55

What about the Jordan 191?

If Schumacher was able to land a 7th on the grid in his first runs in the car it always makes me wonder if that car was actually capable of so much more with the right driver(s).

 

 

The car hit it's sweet spot at Spa....never forget that de Cesaris could well have won that race were it not for the mechanical failure....engine overheating ISTR? 

 

I remember an Autosport headline after Andrea tested the 191 for the first time...."de Cesaris scents a win". That was a seriously beautiful and good car, and one does wonder what might have been achieved if they'd had Schumacher and de Cesaris all year and more experience running in F1. Andrea came good, didn't crash much and was seriously fast. Gachot was OK but I never got the impression he was a top driver. De Cesaris, while often prone to errors, had always been one of the fastest guys out there. 

 

Martini has always been an underrated driver in my opinion.

 

He was fast, consistent and got tremendous results from the cars he drove. He has said himself that his decision not to become fluent in English limited him to the small Italian teams. Ferrari never came calling, so he stuck around Scuderia Italia and Minardi. Wasted talent but I do believe he enjoyed himself. 

 

Thinking of Toyota, I am not sure the top management in Japan ever really understood F1. They started out OK, putting a European based operation in place and did respectably in their first season....made progress, getting podiums and so on....then decided that Japan should take more control and it all went sour. Massive money wasted but I am unsure if there was ever the potential there in the setup to truly be a top team. They should have been though, given the resources. 



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#520 AnttiK

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 08:12

There was surely a pretty good chance of the title in 1982

 

I like Reutemann but I don't think he would have had a chance against Keke in 1982. Williams was much more of an underdog in '82 than in '81, and I don't think he would have been able to quite drag the same performances out of the car than Keke was able to. Perhaps if Williams was a dominant car in 1982, it would be a closer fight, but I feel with the '82 Williams Keke would always come on top. 
 
Rosberg was very strong in the second half of 1982 and in the first half of 1983, perhaps the best driver in the field for that time period. Long Beach and Monaco '83 are some of my favorite drives of all time by any driver. Ok, Long Beach was a bit messy, but so exciting to watch!  :love:


#521 Collombin

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 08:22

Rosberg was very strong in the second half of 1982 and in the first half of 1983, perhaps the best driver


He managed to get as many points as Tambay in this period, but Tambay won the title on dropped scores. Reutemann of course was a 3 time cut and shut world champion.

#522 Beri

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 09:40

One could consider Reutemann as a wasted potential? Ofcourse not when the C&S Championship is looked at 😉

#523 WonderWoman61

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 10:05

Ligier in 1979, considering they won 3 of the first 5 races.

#524 ensign14

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 10:11

The Toyota project in F1 was a big waste of potential and money. They should have won and yet because of lack of  killer instinct, consitency and top drivers they fel short. 

 

And basing themselves in Germany.  Crazy.  There was no halo effect or ease of poaching staff from other F1 teams.  But Toyota did the thing of "we know best".

 

He was fast, consistent and got tremendous results from the cars he drove. He has said himself that his decision not to become fluent in English limited him to the small Italian teams. Ferrari never came calling, so he stuck around Scuderia Italia and Minardi. Wasted talent but I do believe he enjoyed himself.

He also had an aborted first go in 1984-85, in which he managed the startling feat of DNQing in a very good Toleman.  His 1985 season was fairly atrocious as well, beaten by Rothengatter in a worse Osella (aka antediluvian Euroracing Alfa).  PLM is one of those very rare beasts - someone who earned a second chance and then demonstrated that he was worthy of it.  (See also: Peter Revson.)



#525 Collombin

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 10:41

One could consider Reutemann as a wasted potential? Ofcourse not when the C&S Championship is looked at 😉


It's the greatest single honour in all of sport! Ok maybe not, it's a circumstantial or accidental achievement but you can more or less say the same about triple crowns and grand chelems.

#526 Spillage

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 12:00

What about the Jordan 191?

If Schumacher was able to land a 7th on the grid in his first runs in the car it always makes me wonder if that car was actually capable of so much more with the right driver(s).

I feel like there are a lot of cars like this in F1's history, though. Stick a top driver in just about any midfield car and you're going to see some really strong results every now and then. If Alfa Romeo were running Verstappen and Hamilton you'd probably see them on the podium every now and then.



#527 Steve99

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 12:22



He also had an aborted first go in 1984-85, in which he managed the startling feat of DNQing in a very good Toleman. His 1985 season was fairly atrocious as well, beaten by Rothengatter in a worse Osella (aka antediluvian Euroracing Alfa). PLM is one of those very rare beasts - someone who earned a second chance and then demonstrated that he was worthy of it. (See also: Peter Revson.)


Martini was at Minardi in ‘85, as sole driver. Ghinzani was in the second Osella.

#528 Steve99

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 12:23

Martini was at Minardi in ‘85, as sole driver. Ghinzani was in the second Osella.


Sorry, just re-read your post!

#529 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 13:55

And basing themselves in Germany. Crazy. There was no halo effect or ease of poaching staff from other F1 teams. But Toyota did the thing of "we know best".


Why did they base themselves in Germany? Did they already have existing facilities and another motorsport project going there?

Were they maybe hoping to lure staff from Audi's dominant "WEC" team?

Or was it just a central location? And seemingly good idea? Ironically, the facilities are still good enough for F1 teams to make use of today, so that could never have been the reason for such mediocrity.

#530 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 14:01

Why did they base themselves in Germany? Did they already have existing facilities and another motorsport project going there?

Were they maybe hoping to lure staff from Audi's dominant "WEC" team?

Or was it just a central location? And seemingly good idea? Ironically, the facilities are still good enough for F1 teams to make use of today, so that could never have been the reason for such mediocrity.


It was born out of Toyota Team Europe, itself formed from Toyota buying Andersson Motorsport which ran Toyotas in rallying. They’d been based there since the late 70s. This was also where the Toyota GT-Ones for Le Mans were developed.

So it wasn’t Toyota randomly choosing Cologne. They were using their established facilities.

#531 Claudius

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 14:13

I'd add Alonso and Hamilton to this. Better management from Ron, and this pair could have gone on to win titles for years if they stayed together.

They literally were the strongest line up since Senna and Prost, and McLaren had really good cars between 2007 & 2012.

Potentially it also keeps Ron in charge (a happier Alonso doesn't threaten to expose them) and that also changes quite a lot from 2008 on.

 

Senna/Prost was hardly harmonius to say the least. Alonso/Hamilton would have been just as disruptive in the long run. 

I don't think any team principal can manage 2 superstars in a team for a long time.



#532 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 14:16

The car hit it's sweet spot at Spa....never forget that de Cesaris could well have won that race were it not for the mechanical failure....engine overheating ISTR? 

 

I remember an Autosport headline after Andrea tested the 191 for the first time...."de Cesaris scents a win". That was a seriously beautiful and good car, and one does wonder what might have been achieved if they'd had Schumacher and de Cesaris all year and more experience running in F1. Andrea came good, didn't crash much and was seriously fast. Gachot was OK but I never got the impression he was a top driver. De Cesaris, while often prone to errors, had always been one of the fastest guys out there. 

 

 

He was fast, consistent and got tremendous results from the cars he drove. He has said himself that his decision not to become fluent in English limited him to the small Italian teams. Ferrari never came calling, so he stuck around Scuderia Italia and Minardi. Wasted talent but I do believe he enjoyed himself. 

 

Thinking of Toyota, I am not sure the top management in Japan ever really understood F1. They started out OK, putting a European based operation in place and did respectably in their first season....made progress, getting podiums and so on....then decided that Japan should take more control and it all went sour. Massive money wasted but I am unsure if there was ever the potential there in the setup to truly be a top team. They should have been though, given the resources. 

 

I think you can pin point the first moment it went wrong, at the end of 2005 the insisted on switching from Michelins to Bridgestones just because they were Japanese. But the 2006 car was designed around Michelin's.



#533 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 14:58

It was born out of Toyota Team Europe, itself formed from Toyota buying Andersson Motorsport which ran Toyotas in rallying. They’d been based there since the late 70s. This was also where the Toyota GT-Ones for Le Mans were developed.

So it wasn’t Toyota randomly choosing Cologne. They were using their established facilities.


Thanks. I assume they use these facilities for their current WEC activities?

#534 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 15:25

Thanks. I assume they use these facilities for their current WEC activities?

 

Yes and F1 teams have been flocking for years to use their Wind Tunnel - Which have come to an end, last or possibly the year before. I do not think there were anything fundamentally wrong with the Toyota approach until Japan started interfering, I also think that they for most part had the best drivers available, Honda as a team were vastly more underachieving.



#535 wheadon1985

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 17:28

The car hit it's sweet spot at Spa....never forget that de Cesaris could well have won that race were it not for the mechanical failure....engine overheating ISTR?


I seem to recall it was an updated engine which used more oil than usual. Cosworth didn't let Jordan know so the oil tank was too small for the new engine requirements.