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Loks like tehe end f the Bugati W16


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#1 mariner

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Posted 13 August 2022 - 08:23

A glitzy VAG offiicial video here 

 

https://www.enginela...st-of-its-kind/

 

Notice how the two guys installing it in the chassis look like they are having to shove hard to move it!

 

To be honest the whole Veyron thing never impressed me that much- I think it had at least 8 radiators!


Edited by mariner, 13 August 2022 - 08:29.


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#2 BRG

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Posted 13 August 2022 - 18:28

The modern day iteration of 'Bugatti' is an anathema for me.  Ettore Bugatti described the 1920s Bentleys as the fastest lorries in the world.  I shudder to think what he would call the Veyron and its equallly ugly successor.  Bugattis were works of art on wheels, beautiful in every detail, and fast as well.



#3 Greg Locock

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Posted 13 August 2022 - 19:08

Most of these supercars leave me cold (I've worked on a couple of dead end supercar projects), but I tip my lid to Koenigsegg. The modern Bugattis have never been even slightly interesting to me.



#4 404KF2

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Posted 13 August 2022 - 23:12

Agree - they're utterly hideous pig nosed blobs for conspicuous consuming drug dealers and other nouveaux riches.

 

If a Bentley was a lorry, the modern VAG Bugs are railway locomotives. Which, ironically, is redolent of a famous painting....



#5 DogEarred

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 10:55

 

 

To be honest the whole Veyron thing never impressed me that much- I think it had at least 8 radiators!

 

I once worked on a 'supercar' prototype which needed 13 radiators and heat exchangers.



#6 just me again

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 11:33

How many lubricants was cooled?

Water
Oil
Gearbox?
Differential?
Other stuff?

#7 ensign14

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 11:38

The modern day iteration of 'Bugatti' is an anathema for me.  Ettore Bugatti described the 1920s Bentleys as the fastest lorries in the world.  I shudder to think what he would call the Veyron and its equallly ugly successor.  Bugattis were works of art on wheels, beautiful in every detail, and fast as well.

They were fast right up until they came up against someone else...remember that Bentley lorry beat all the Bugattis bar one at the French Grand Prix.



#8 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 14:33

They were fast right up until they came up against someone else...remember that Bentley lorry beat all the Bugattis bar one at the French Grand Prix.

:confused:   Bugatti won the French Grand Prix on six occasions (1926, 1928-31, 1936)  Bentley never won it although they were first loser once.



#9 mariner

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 16:01

Iw as wrong a Veyron has 10 radiators

Veyron radiators
 
The Bugatti Veyron has a total of ten radiators:
  • 3 heat exchangers for the air-to-liquid intercoolers.
  • 3 engine radiators.
  • 1 for the air conditioning system.
  • 1 transmission oil radiator.
  • 1 differential oil radiator.
  • 1 engine oil radiator.
  •  
 
 

Edited by mariner, 14 August 2022 - 16:02.


#10 Magoo

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 16:12

It may not be representative of the original Bugatti ethos, but it was an achievement of a sort. 



#11 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2022 - 18:04

It was said that they lost money on every car they sold.  



#12 Nathan

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Posted 15 August 2022 - 23:41

That's by choice.



#13 404KF2

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 02:37

Maybe they'll make an actual sports car one day, which would have made Ettore proud.

 

Nah



#14 BRG

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 08:34

That's by choice.

Yes, I am sure they knew about it from the start.  It is still a strange way to go about running a business, effectively subsidising the price of cars sold to billionaires from the profits of selling cars to ordinary oiks.  Dooh Nibor. *

 

 

* that's Robin Hood in reverse b BTW



#15 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 13:59

It was said that they lost money on every car they sold.  

 

 

Sickening thought:

 

What are the odds on that  for every bread&butter VW, Skoda, Seat and maybe the more expensive cars like the Audis an extra bonus fee was added to the sales price in order to help reduce the losses made on the Bugattis ?

 

Joe Average and the other common people paying extra in order to prevent the filthy rich having to pay what a Bugatti really costed and make these cars a bit more accessible for the not that filthy rich so they still hae more than enough left for other things.

 

Could that have been possible?

 

 

I personally think that Ettore would have preferred another kind of modern day sportscar carrying his name instead of this UberPiƫchPrestigeProject device


Edited by Henri Greuter, 16 August 2022 - 14:00.


#16 Bikr7549

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 14:19

Sickening thought:

What are the odds on that for every bread&butter VW, Skoda, Seat and maybe the more expensive cars like the Audis an extra bonus fee was added to the sales price in order to help reduce the losses made on the Bugattis ?

Joe Average and the other common people paying extra in order to prevent the filthy rich having to pay what a Bugatti really costed and make these cars a bit more accessible for the not that filthy rich so they still hae more than enough left for other things.

Could that have been possible?


I personally think that Ettore would have preferred another kind of modern day sportscar carrying his name instead of this UberPiƫchPrestigeProject device


But us Averages are paying for those cars already. The incredible cost of those cars is covered by the cost of the bread and butter products.

Agree that Ettore would probably not be pleased with what has his name on it now.

#17 BRG

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Posted 16 August 2022 - 14:26

Could that have been possible?

 

Supposedly so,  yes.  And VW compounded the error by making the VW Phaeton, a luxury car that competed directly with fellow brand Audi, and made it available with the W16 engine and that version lost money too.  Fortunately the Phaeton  sold in penny numbers (just over 1,000 in the UK over 14 years).  And was paid for by the buyers of Polos and Golfs.



#18 404KF2

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 01:59

Trickle up economics.



#19 gruntguru

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 05:50

Marketing. Losses on the Bugatti brand would be written off as promotion of VAG image.

 

Probably a pittance compared to the total marketing dollars built into every car on the market.



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#20 mariner

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 08:28

At the risk of being very cynical I think there is a simple two word answer to the existence of the Veyron and the Phaeton and it has nothing to do with marketing

 

Ferdinand Piech 


Edited by mariner, 17 August 2022 - 08:28.


#21 BRG

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 08:41

Marketing. Losses on the Bugatti brand would be written off as promotion of VAG image.

 

Probably a pittance compared to the total marketing dollars built into every car on the market.

Probably so, although I have never heard of anyone anywhere in the world seeing a Bugatti Veyron and, after a moment of blinding insight, rushing to his nearest VW dealer to buy an Up!



#22 djr900

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 08:46

Marketing. Losses on the Bugatti brand would be written off as promotion of VAG image.

Probably a pittance compared to the total marketing dollars built into every car on the market.


Is Bentley also a marketing project for VAG ?

( Don't they also own Lamborghini & Ducati ? )

#23 BRG

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Posted 17 August 2022 - 09:29

Is Bentley also a marketing project for VAG ?

( Don't they also own Lamborghini & Ducati ? )

Do any of those lose money?  If not, then they are viable on their own, plus casting some sort of positive light onto Skoda. 

 

But the mention of Ducati might be the key to all of this.  They are owned by Lambo, who are owned by Audi who are owned by VAG.  Ducati are top dogs in MotoGP.  Maybe the PR people got confused between MotoGP and F1 GP?



#24 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 02:14

I'm always a bit suspicious of the tendency of mass market car manufacturers attempting to run prestige brands, but I think VAG have made a pretty good fist of that. I suppose my cynicism stems from my apprenticeship in the NIH group at BL. Triumph would not talk to Rover, and Jaguar studiously ignored the riff-raff. Then Lotus was a quick cheap shot of 'prestige', or at least excitement, for anybody who wanted to have a go, and of course Ford had Volvo Jag and LandRover for a short and actually surprisingly useful period of time. We talked to each other at an engineering level and in Vehicle Dynamics we developed some good stuff, more to do with test procedures and what you worried about than actual hardware.



#25 gruntguru

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 02:32

At the risk of being very cynical I think there is a simple two word answer to the existence of the Veyron and the Phaeton and it has nothing to do with marketing

 

Ferdinand Piech 

 

 

Probably so, although I have never heard of anyone anywhere in the world seeing a Bugatti Veyron and, after a moment of blinding insight, rushing to his nearest VW dealer to buy an Up!

 

 

Is Bentley also a marketing project for VAG ?

( Don't they also own Lamborghini & Ducati ? )

 

Slow down guys

I didn't suggest Veyron was a marketing exercise for VAG. Only that losses on Veyron will be written off as promotion of the group and built in to the price of every product in their lineup.



#26 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 03:35

Same way a factory F1 team is funded, it is part of the marketing budget, not engineering.



#27 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 08:40

Same way a factory F1 team is funded, it is part of the marketing budget, not engineering.

 

 

If I would buy a car from a company, knowing that some of the money is used to let that company participate in F1, I would feel much better about that than I would feel about knowing that a part of what I paid for my VW, Seat or Skoda is used to somehow lower the sales prize of a Bugatti from rediculous insane to slightly less rediculous insane.



#28 gruntguru

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 22:56

Probably best we don't know any of the stuff we don't know lest we cease buying anything from any multinational company.



#29 Nathan

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Posted 18 August 2022 - 23:11

If I would buy a car from a company, knowing that some of the money is used to let that company participate in F1, I would feel much better about that than I would feel about knowing that a part of what I paid for my VW, Seat or Skoda is used to somehow lower the sales prize of a Bugatti from rediculous insane to slightly less rediculous insane.

 

What about the other 99.999% of auto buyers?  Veyron's help boost the used Audi TT market, that's for sure  :drunk:



#30 Greg Locock

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Posted 19 August 2022 - 00:36

One of my internet contacts regularly bought himself a new car, one or two a year. He got a TT. I reminded him it shared a platform with the Beetle. He got rid of it the next week. Mind you he fell for the Hummer H3 as well.



#31 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 August 2022 - 06:22

What about the other 99.999% of auto buyers?  Veyron's help boost the used Audi TT market, that's for sure  :drunk:

 

 

Explain, please.



#32 BRG

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Posted 19 August 2022 - 09:16

I think he means that they look vaguely similar?  Although why seeing a Veyron would make you go and seek out an equally ugly used car in your price range is a mystery!



#33 Charlieman

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Posted 19 August 2022 - 12:31

The modern day iteration of 'Bugatti' is an anathema for me.  Ettore Bugatti described the 1920s Bentleys as the fastest lorries in the world.  I shudder to think what he would call the Veyron and its equallly ugly successor.  Bugattis were works of art on wheels, beautiful in every detail, and fast as well.

I tend to agree but the Bugatti Royale (Type 41) was closer to a lorry than anything that Bentley made at the time. Apparently the Royale was a drivable car on 1930s roads!

 

As an engineering project, the rejuvenated Bugatti brand simply proves something which we knew already: if maximum straight-line speed is your objective, your design will tie itself in knots. Straight-line speed requires power which requires a big engine, big fuel tanks, complicated transmission, special tyres, great brakes, and the driving pleasure of a 1950s Ford Thames van.



#34 Nathan

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Posted 19 August 2022 - 14:02

Veyron lore was established in the young generation of auto enthusiasts because making a 'streetable' 1000hp Supra on stock internals was becoming a thing, a wowzers moment for that age group, then suddenly VW says 'here is a 1000hp with warranty.  And it will sail past 250mph.'  How isn't that something?  If it looked like a 250GTO it would be amazing.

 

I've long been a pre-VW Bugatti fan and personally, I think the Veyron and Chiron are right in line with Bugatti styling.  Would a Chiron win a beauty contest versus a T57G?

 

I think the T35/51, T55 (the prettiest inhouse styled Bugatti?) and various T57s bought a lot of goodwill, plus numerous coachbuilt (Figoni :clap: ) bodies put on Bugatti frames. But generally, Bugatti chassis carrying factory Bugatti bodies often don't look particularly fetching.  Black Bess and the Brecia are  :cat: and the initial T13-23 don't win beauty contests. The T57 Ventoux  :stoned:  T30s - unless gorgeously streamlined - are vanilla, as are T38, T40 , T43 (ugly?), T49. styling heading into and out of the war certainly never came close to wall poster status.  Seems people just remember a few and assume it was all.

 

Explain, please.

 

As BRG alludes to, it became fashionable for some VW tuners to ditch the usual Golf for the TT as a means to get a 'baby Bug'.  It then became a thing how close to Veyron power could you stretch a VW powertrain.


Edited by Nathan, 19 August 2022 - 14:07.


#35 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 03:00

Marketing. Losses on the Bugatti brand would be written off as promotion of VAG image.

 

Probably a pittance compared to the total marketing dollars built into every car on the market.

VW?  The amount paid for all those US diesel vehicles probably went as marketing as well and was written off on tax. 

Us mere mortals cannot do that. Many hotrodders in the US have copped in proportion huge fines to VW.

Here in Oz?  people are still being defected for modded vehicles yet all those dirty VWs are still out there. They should have all been defected. Then VW sued for repair costs and cost because they then do not offer the power and mileage claimed.



#36 ensign14

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 06:39

:confused:   Bugatti won the French Grand Prix on six occasions (1926, 1928-31, 1936)  Bentley never won it although they were first loser once.

The point is that the Bentley lorry was entered once - not by the works - and promptly beat every Bug bar Etancelin's. 

 

The list of Grand Prix cars that Bugatti beat on a regular basis is pretty short...



#37 BRG

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 10:24

The point is that the Bentley lorry was entered once - not by the works - and promptly beat every Bug bar Etancelin's. 

 

The list of Grand Prix cars that Bugatti beat on a regular basis is pretty short...

That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?  Bentley (privately) entered the French GP once and got beaten. How does that give them any sort of edge over Bugatti, who beat them, and everyone else six times?



#38 ensign14

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 11:53

Because one Bugatti beat one private Bentley, but the Bentley beat a dozen Bugattis, including works Bugattis, in a one-off.

 

Bugatti were flat track bullies in motor racing.  I'm glad they existed because they basically preserved motor sport in the late twenties and early thirties, but as soon as anyone else took it seriously, they were sucking hind tit.  Bugatti 59 anyone?



#39 gruntguru

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Posted 29 August 2022 - 22:08

Here in Oz?  people are still being defected for modded vehicles yet all those dirty VWs are still out there. They should have all been defected. Then VW sued for repair costs and cost because they then do not offer the power and mileage claimed.

The dirty VWs comply with Australian (dirty) emissions standards.



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#40 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 09:21

The dirty VWs comply with Australian (dirty) emissions standards.

NO they do not. They do not comply,, hence the reason for all the hooha. But our govt is patheticly weak.

Australian emmisions are similar to Euro standards.

VW were caught but the cars continue being actually illegal.THAT is end of story.



#41 Charlieman

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Posted 30 August 2022 - 10:32

Because one Bugatti beat one private Bentley, but the Bentley beat a dozen Bugattis, including works Bugattis, in a one-off.

 

Bugatti were flat track bullies in motor racing.  I'm glad they existed because they basically preserved motor sport in the late twenties and early thirties, but as soon as anyone else took it seriously, they were sucking hind tit.  Bugatti 59 anyone?

Thanks for introducing me to the expression "flat track bullies"!

 

I'd agree that for most of the 1920s, Bugatti had little competition. At the 1926 Targa Florio however, Bugattis comfortably led the Delages of Divo and Benoist, no slouches, before Delage withdrew. A few years later, at the first Monaco GP run on Formula Libre regulations, William Grover-Williams beat the monstrous Mercedes-Benz SSK -- one of those cars from one of the many occasions when M-B pretended that they didn't run a racing team.

 

Bugatti T59? That's kicking a player when they're already down. Bugatti, family and company, were s-l-o-w to change, and the development pace of racing cars in the 1920s was both glacial and rocket speed. Alfa Romeo and Bugatti were in the slow but steady lane of progress, Delage and Benz took the faster lane. Nobody, apart from a few of the protagonists, expected what happened in the 1930s.



#42 Wuzak

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Posted 31 August 2022 - 04:36

NO they do not. They do not comply,, hence the reason for all the hooha. But our govt is patheticly weak.

Australian emmisions are similar to Euro standards.

VW were caught but the cars continue being actually illegal.THAT is end of story.

 

Australian emission standards are based on European Standards, but are a generation or two behind.