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Do you think BMW will be left behind?


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#1 AvranaKern

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 16:02

After today's announcement and likely announcement-to-come from Porsche, the BMW will be the sole major sports car manufacturer in Europe without an F1 programme. Audi, Porsche and Mercedes will certainly have a leg up on BMW in terms of future fuel technology and engines. I was wondering if this could also adversely affect BMW's road vehicles and whether they could decide they should enter F1 as well.

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#2 Anja

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 16:04

2024: BMW announces they will enter F1 in 2026

2025: BMW announces they will exit F1 in 2028



#3 Chillimeister

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 16:19

Andretti will be obliged to partner with BMW in order to get a F1 entry. You heard it here first ...



#4 JHSingo

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 16:21

Formula DTM, coming soon to a race track near you. Just imagine the forum meltdowns...  :lol:

 



#5 William Hunt

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 17:14

There is also Opel, who are a German manufacturer but part of the Stelantis group, who seem to do nothing at all in racing right now. They used to be in DTM.

 

@ JHSingo: that's a snooker video you posted there.


Edited by William Hunt, 26 August 2022 - 17:15.


#6 juicy sushi

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 17:25

After today's announcement and likely announcement-to-come from Porsche, the BMW will be the sole major sports car manufacturer in Europe without an F1 programme. Audi, Porsche and Mercedes will certainly have a leg up on BMW in terms of future fuel technology and engines. I was wondering if this could also adversely affect BMW's road vehicles and whether they could decide they should enter F1 as well.

Given that everything is going EV-only on the passenger side, and F1 has essentially nothing relevant for that, I cannot see how this would have any effect on their road cars.  I mean, Mercedes have been dominant in F1 for over half a decade, yet their passenger EVs have been reviewed quite badly in comparison to Korean competition or Teslas, both of which cost thousands less (and don't do F1).  So, there's not connection between the two.  

 

If BMW were to enter F1, it might matter, but BMW are pretty unlikely to do that, since they have pulled out of almost all forms of motorsport entirely.


Edited by juicy sushi, 26 August 2022 - 17:27.


#7 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 17:26

I'm definitely more concerned about the DTMification of F1 than the Americanisation of F1.



#8 Ali_G

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 17:59

I'm definitely more concerned about the DTMification of F1 than the Americanisation of F1.

 


I’m worried that there are too many manufacturers which gives significant downside. I don’t think there will have been this many works teams since the pre-F1 era in GP racing.

#9 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:06

I’m worried that there are too many manufacturers which gives significant downside. I don’t think there will have been this many works teams since the pre-F1 era in GP racing.

Mid 00's



#10 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:07

1. Ferrari

2. Mercedes (exclusive with McLaren)

3. Renault

4. Honda (+ Super Aguri B-team)

5. Toyota

6. BMW Sauber



#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:10

Hello Jaguar



#12 FLB

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:29

I'm definitely more concerned about the DTMification of F1 than the Americanisation of F1.

Same. And Toto Wolff warned of it last year, when a possible BoP was being discussed.


Edited by FLB, 26 August 2022 - 18:32.


#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:39

Didn't we have that from day one of the hybrid era when Merc was the only player and allegations about limits or lack of special modes for customer teams?



#14 vlado

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:46

They will probably wait until F1 goes full electric



#15 P123

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:48

Didn't we have that from day one of the hybrid era when Merc was the only player and allegations about limits or lack of special modes for customer teams?

 

Mostly spite based paranoia.  When and why would they do that?  Somebody will trot along and tell us when driver X couldn't use maximum mode in situation Y, yet that was even true for the works teams drivers, and caused a bit of internal angst there.  They did hide a lot from McLaren, but they had thrown their lot in with the Honda jewel.



#16 P123

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:52

I'm definitely more concerned about the DTMification of F1 than the Americanisation of F1.

 

A manufacturer that has never entered previously taking a chance would be more welcome, rather than a concentration of German manufacturers with two being from the same group.  Or quitters such as BMW.  Perhaps Hyundai/ Genesis.



#17 noikeee

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:53


I’m worried that there are too many manufacturers which gives significant downside. I don’t think there will have been this many works teams since the pre-F1 era in GP racing.


I'd rather keep the manufacturers merely as engine suppliers, but if we're going to have manufacturers owning teams, I think it's better to have 4 or 5 of them than just 2 or 3. This way we have more teams that can actually win, and fewer that are forced to be subservient.

#18 sheSgoTthElooK

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 18:54

They will probably wait until F1 goes full electric

 

Clever post - that could be it. 

 

To another former poster: ... Andretti BMW (AB) sounds nice... 

 

BMW needs a corporate culture shift... with or without F1...


Edited by sheSgoTthElooK, 26 August 2022 - 18:55.


#19 mclarensmps

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 19:22

They've already been left behind in road cars (other than the M5 Comp). 

Their cars look hideous, they're toying with the ridiculous subscription model on features, their partnership with Toyota is producing cars that nobody wants (on both sides, sadly)... 

They still have brilliant engines, but everything around that is broken in my opinion. However, they do have a hypercar, so maybe that might be the gateway drug required to get them back in F1. 



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#20 absinthedude

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 19:23

Given that everything is going EV-only on the passenger side, 

 

ROFLMAO



#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:05

Mostly spite based paranoia.  When and why would they do that?  Somebody will trot along and tell us when driver X couldn't use maximum mode in situation Y, yet that was even true for the works teams drivers, and caused a bit of internal angst there.  They did hide a lot from McLaren, but they had thrown their lot in with the Honda jewel.

 

I believe the grumps came from Williams, and they would do that to protect the primary team.



#22 Ali_G

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:12

Hello Jaguar


Jag were gone by the time BMW had bought Sauber so one basically replaced the other in terms of numbers. We’re now looking at:

Ferrari
Alpine (Renault)
Mercedes
Red Bull - Porsche (VW)
Audi (VW)
Aston Martin (With the caveat of not building their own engines)

On the earlier list. I wouldn’t include McLaren given that Mercedes ownership never even reached 50%. Porsche on the other hand will own 50% of RBR.

#23 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:15

The manufacturers were just as much a risk whether they were partners or owners. It was a chunk of money whether it was the Williams partnership or the Sauber ownership, and in both cases the departure of BMW was a big blow to the team.



#24 EightGear

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:18

Aston Martin doesn't count IMO.

#25 Ali_G

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:19

The manufacturers were just as much a risk whether they were partners or owners. It was a chunk of money whether it was the Williams partnership or the Sauber ownership, and in both cases the departure of BMW was a big blow to the team.


It was. However Williams carried on. Sauber was lucky in that Peter was willing to buy the team back.

Toyota on the other hand was never sold on and that eas that. We’re lucky that Ross Brawn saved the Honda team too. That team would likely have gone under but for it being the dominant car at the start of 2009.

#26 Ali_G

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:22

Aston Martin doesn't count IMO.


Am I correct in saying that Renault don’t built their engines either. I think Mechachrome do that. Does that also complicate Alpine’s status as a factory team?

#27 EightGear

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:27

Am I correct in saying that Renault don’t built their engines either. I think Mechachrome do that. Does that also complicate Alpine’s status as a factory team?


No. It's just a feeling of - yes it is Aston Martin - but really it isn't at the same time.

#28 Clatter

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:36

Am I correct in saying that Renault don’t built their engines either. I think Mechachrome do that. Does that also complicate Alpine’s status as a factory team?


I believe the engines are designed and built at their Viry-Châtillon factory.

#29 noikeee

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 20:57

The manufacturers were just as much a risk whether they were partners or owners. It was a chunk of money whether it was the Williams partnership or the Sauber ownership, and in both cases the departure of BMW was a big blow to the team.


Better a big blow than the team stopping to exist, like what happened to the team based in Cologne.

#30 AvranaKern

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 22:10

They've already been left behind in road cars (other than the M5 Comp).

Their cars look hideous, they're toying with the ridiculous subscription model on features, their partnership with Toyota is producing cars that nobody wants (on both sides, sadly).

M5 CS is probably the most insane sports car launched over the past few years, which goes to show that BMW *can* still manufacture driving machines. I think Supra is very much desirable with that engine. But your overall points stand. They've gone a bit too bulky and electronic-heavy not to mention the weird styling. Still, I'd have expected them to at least show interest in the new engine formula.

Edited by AvranaKern, 26 August 2022 - 22:10.


#31 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 22:21

None of that is going to be fixed by being in F1.



#32 flyboym3

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 22:43

Doubt it.
Porsche and vw owners is not bmw target market.
Audi is a poor man's BMW.
Merc is more competitive but still the two operate in a slightly different target market although merc have apparently addressed some of that difference and are not as heavily focussed on the oldies.
Despite merc being in f1 and BMW not I still think BMW ///M range have better road car sports pedigree/sales than amg or s-line.

#33 r4mses

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Posted 26 August 2022 - 23:24

Doubt it.
Porsche and vw owners is not bmw target market.
Audi is a poor man's BMW.
Merc is more competitive but still the two operate in a slightly different target market although merc have apparently addressed some of that difference and are not as heavily focussed on the oldies.
Despite merc being in f1 and BMW not I still think BMW ///M range have better road car sports pedigree/sales than amg or s-line.

 

Doubt it. prestige wise it surely is AMG > M >>> S-line 

 

(unless you poll around Munich ofc :p)

 

 

/edit: and of course Porsche owners are BMW's target market. Panamera, Macan, Cayenne compete with BMW. If those buyers are affected by how the marks do in F1 is a different story.


Edited by r4mses, 26 August 2022 - 23:30.


#34 loki

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 00:58

Comparatively speaking no one bases their car buying on if a manufacturer has an F1 program.  It gives them brand exposure but I doubt that many have said “I really wanted that M5 but they aren’t in F1 so I’ll buy a Giulia instead”.  Any brand allegiance comes from things outside F1 more so than being in the series.



#35 404KF2

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 01:12

Automatic sports cars, LOL!



#36 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 08:05

Doubt it.
Porsche and vw owners is not bmw target market.
Audi is a poor man's BMW.
Merc is more competitive but still the two operate in a slightly different target market although merc have apparently addressed some of that difference and are not as heavily focussed on the oldies.
Despite merc being in f1 and BMW not I still think BMW ///M range have better road car sports pedigree/sales than amg or s-line.

I’d have said BMW is the poor man’s Audi.



#37 Lennat

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 08:25

I feel like BMWs have lost their soul in general, actually kind of starting around the time they quit F1.

#38 Ali_G

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 08:28

I’d have said BMW is the poor man’s Audi.


Saying Audi is a poor man’s BMW hasn’t dated well. I’d buy an Audi any day over a BMW now. Their electric range is much better than BMWs.

#39 w1Y

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 08:49

I have had a BMW last 5 years and its been a fantastic car. But I agree that over that time they seemed to have lost something. I've been looking at cars recently and considering electric too and have to say that the audi stands out above BMW imo.

I don't think f1 has much of an impact on that.

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#40 B38

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 09:02

BMW could use this for marketing: [German accent] unlike zhe others, we don't waste our money on F1... :rotfl:

 

Shame on me!

 

First: how dare I say spending money on F1 is a waste

Second, BMW is from Bavaria, so the accent should be Bavarian, not German.

 

Taking off to wash my keyboard with soap & vinegar.

 

Edit:

 

Fun fact:Erica Popp, daugther of BMW founder & general director Franz Josef Popp, was married to race legend Dick Seaman. Dick Seaman drove for... Mercedes!


Edited by B38, 27 August 2022 - 09:09.


#41 BRG

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 10:18

After today's announcement and likely announcement-to-come from Porsche, the BMW will be the sole major sports car manufacturer in Europe without an F1 programme. Audi, Porsche and Mercedes will certainly have a leg up on BMW in terms of future fuel technology and engines. I was wondering if this could also adversely affect BMW's road vehicles and whether they could decide they should enter F1 as well.

Audi have never been in F1 but it doesn't seem to have affected THEM adversely?



#42 Deeq

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 10:36

Neither did Tesla..and they have been stealing a march on everyone.
Infact GM, VW or Toyota #1, #2' #3 largest auto companies has not been in F1 like forever (Toyotas decade involvement aside).
This is a pure F1 fan conciete that F1 involvement matters to those companies fortunes... positively!😉

#43 noikeee

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 10:38

Being in F1 seems to have really helped Mercedes (specially in getting rid of the image that Mercedes was an old man's car), makes sense that other brands want to emulate it. Doesn't mean it's the only path to success in marketing but it can be a valid path.

#44 flyboym3

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 11:19

Saying Audi is a poor man’s BMW hasn’t dated well. I’d buy an Audi any day over a BMW now. Their electric range is much better than BMWs.

Why? Audis have always been cheaper than BMW list price. Once you get into 6 figure income clientelle they will pick a 7 series over an a8 which you rarely see on the road where I am, 7 series everywhere, a8 you'll have to remind me what it looks like.

If you drive enthusiastically then a fwd understeering audi will bore you, rwd is where the fun is.

Bmw have lost their way a little with the budget range styling though, not the trend setters they used to be.

One manufacturer that I can think of that has suffered not being in f1 is Bridgestone in the retail sector imo.

#45 cbo

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 11:27

Audi is a poor man's BMW.


Audi is a rich mans VW.

#46 ArnageWRC

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 11:31

BMW will be in IMSA and WEC.....a better fit than F1.



#47 Ramon69

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 19:16

I have had a BMW last 5 years and its been a fantastic car. But I agree that over that time they seemed to have lost something. I've been looking at cars recently and considering electric too and have to say that the audi stands out above BMW imo.

I don't think f1 has much of an impact on that.

They don't make cars like they used to and this is a statement that applies to every car manufacturer nowadays, whether we speak about reliability, quality of the materials or feeling the car when driving.



#48 absinthedude

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Posted 27 August 2022 - 20:47

Saying Audi is a poor man’s BMW hasn’t dated well. I’d buy an Audi any day over a BMW now. Their electric range is much better than BMWs.

 

BMW may be more expensive, that does not necessarily make them better or more desirable. BMW have lost a lot of the reputation they gained in the 70s and 80s, and kept into the early 21st century. Now it's more jokes about indicators being optional extras on BMWs - which people used to tell about Audis.....

 

The thing is that in the 60s-early 2000s, "executive cars" really were significantly better than regular cars. Nowadays there's really not much to set a BMW apart from a Skoda, and even less an Audi and a Skoda because they may effectively be much the same car..... Additionally, equipment that is standard on most cars is an extra on BMW models...and they're charging subscriptions for various features which means ongoing costs and not actually owning anything. The days are gone when many people were willing to pay extra for a BMW, Mercedes or even Audi because they were significantly better than a "regular" car....significantly smoother engines, more comfortable ride, better top speed, better brakes, better handling and so on. These days, the BMW really doesn't perform significantly better than anything else and people aren't willing to pay lots more for faux wood inserts on the dashboard and tan leather seats with blue lights under them when the thing drives pretty much the same as anything else. 

 

Mercedes has read the market much more successfully and reduced prices, made the brand seem a bit less exclusive and are doing good business. Audi has always been seen as somewhere inbetween (and honestly I don't know why as they've never particularly impressed me since the original Quatro) and have been very successful in marketing that position. 

 

So BMW is already being "left behind"....but I don't know that F1 is going to make any difference. The company mis-read the market 10-15 years ago and has yet to really find it's 2020s mojo. 



#49 loki

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Posted 28 August 2022 - 03:51

Context:

 

In 2021 BMW sold approx. 2.3 million cars worldwide.

 

In 2021 Audi sold approx. 1.6 million cars worldwide.

 

Carry on…



#50 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 August 2022 - 06:22

Context:

 

In 2021 BMW sold approx. 2.3 million cars worldwide.

 

In 2021 Audi sold approx. 1.6 million cars worldwide.

 

Carry on…

Certainly backs up the point that BMW are lower in the executive hierarchy than Audi.

 

Ive always summed it up as: BMW (Junior management/class C drug dealers) -> Audi (Middle management/class B drug dealers) -> Mercedes-Benz (Executive management/class A drug dealers).