191 replies to this topic

[Garagista]

I know it was many moons ago, but a team that can fire at the time 3x WDC in Prost in the middle of a season, What would they do if Charles started blurting it all out in public?

 

There is no free-speech when you sign for Ferrari, even Alonso with the "under-oversteer" 2014 car didn't say that much publicly, at least not at the levels he did with the Mclaren, speaking against the car/team. 

[kumo7]

Ferrari is in a difficult situation, especially because the car is a fantastic beast. Operational side perhaps could be the factor to improve the results.

With no critics to none, I do think if either Lewis or Fernando is in the car, the both would have placed the team more towards the edge. I read some critic on the boss, yes I am sure boss or the top managements can make a difference, but driver is a crucial factor as well. I am not promoting the idea, but the driver could push the team.

Just my two cents:

[Astandahl]

Ferrari is in a difficult situation, especially because the car is a fantastic beast. Operational side perhaps could be the factor to improve the results.

With no critics to none, I do think if either Lewis or Fernando is in the car, the both would have placed the team more towards the edge. I read some critic on the boss, yes I am sure boss or the top managements can make a difference, but driver is a crucial factor as well. I am not promoting the idea, but the driver could push the team.

Just my two cents:

 

Both behind their teammates.

 

(Yeah i know they have been better on pure performance but just it highlights how they have got bad strategies, made mistakes, etc.)
 

Edited by Astandahl, 15 September 2022 - 15:25.

[kumo7]

Both behind their teammates.

(Yeah i know they have been better on pure performance but just it highlights how they have got bad strategies, made mistakes, etc.)

Yes point wise both Lewis and Fernando is not scored their points in full potential. But my point is not about putting either Lewis or Fernando ( or even both) in Ferrari cars. What I mean is the role that they play in racing operations, not about this year, but their approach towards taking their team towards their liking, demanding approach to the racing.

More push from the drivers would make differences, l think.

Edited by kumo7, 15 September 2022 - 15:33.

[RedRabbit]

Yes point wise both Lewis and Fernando is not scored their points in full potential. But my point is not about putting either Lewis or Fernando ( or even both) in Ferrari cars. What I mean is the role that they play in racing operations, not about this year, but their approach towards taking their team towards their liking, demanding approach to the racing.

More push from the drivers would make differences, l think.

Well, you can only have the Lewis and Fernando that are this year, and not some fantasy team from years gone by - and let's be a little real, Mercedes are utterly lost this year, so what worth is Lewis actually providing?

If we credit those drivers for developing great cars, why can't we credit Charles for any input he had in the F1-75?

[Astandahl]

"Hamilton and Alonso would fight against Verstappen till the last race. They don't make mistakes, and they do their own strategies."

 

Yet they are both behind their teammates in the WDC (who are not as good as Max).

 

Now imagine if they had to deal with the usual Ferrari clown show.

Edited by Astandahl, 15 September 2022 - 16:57.

[ARTGP]

I don’t think Hamilton, Verstappen, or Alonso would make much difference to the current operational struggles at Ferrari.

I actually think Charles is the most patient of the bunch.

Edited by ARTGP, 15 September 2022 - 17:07.

[aportinga]

1992/93 were failry bad years for Ferrari but they never had a car like they have this season.

 

Ferrari management needs to be terminated across the board IMO.

 

If they don't recognize this then they deserve to be the butt end of F1.

[Muppetmad]

That's the thing: it doesn't matter how good you are if your pitwall is so incompetent. Leclerc had a handy lead at Monaco: it's quite the feat to turn that into a fourth place come the end of the race.

[Mechanic44]

Can’t see how it’s one of the biggest failures in history, they just had a bit of bad reliability and management. Plenty of seasons where other teams have had the same. Charles had a few mistakes also but even if Ferrari didn’t have these mistakes or team strategy the way Max and Redbull are now they wouldn’t have stood a chance anyway going into the final stretch of the season. The TD has obviously hurt Ferrari a touch and the pace of the car just isn’t what it was.

[dia6olo]

Ferrari are the most successful team in F1 history, now granted that stat is slanted because they have been in the sport a long time but to ask the question of if they are one of the biggest failures in F1 history is ridiculous.

I can't recall if it was last week or the week before but one of the commentators mentioned a stat that Ferrari have been on the podium (cant recall the numbers exactly but it was over 50% possibly as high as 60%) of all the races they have competed in, that's how ridiculous the question is!

[Muppetmad]

Sure, but the topic of the thread is Ferrari 2022 specifically.

[jpm2019]

Well its definitely the biggest image blow i have seen. I even think its better to be caught cheating than being this incompetent image wise.

[Mechanic44]

Well its definitely the biggest image blow i have seen. I even think its better to be caught cheating than being this incompetent image wise.

What you mean pull off another 2019 but without the secret handshake?

I think they certainly tried certain things this year that could be edging towards “cheating” because the drop off since the TD came in has been quite big, Binotto says he has no answers why they have dropped off this year.

The start of the year was looking so good it’s been a huge huge downward spiral but still not one of the worst in history. Redbull have just been too good, well Max and Redbull.

Charles and Ferrari will come again.

[spa2000overtake]

Ferrari in my opinion was the fastest car in the beginning season, i thought until Hungary they are evenly matched in terms of speed with Red Bull chassis.

After the summer break Red Bull has been dominant in the last 3 races and they have managed to solve all the downforce,weight issues. Title was decided between Spain and Canada where Ferrari had golden opportunity to win multiple races but reliability,teams mistakes costed it all however.

Compare to last 2 seasons this is definitely a big improvement last season Ferrari and Leclerc could have only dream about winning races or challange the title in 2021.

[dia6olo]

Sure, but the topic of the thread is Ferrari 2022 specifically.

Fine, let's talk 2022, 4 wins and is it 8 or 9 poles from 16 races, not to shabby for one of the biggest failures in F1 history...

[danmills]

Arrivabene was ditched for far less. I actually thought he was decent.

Binotto is abysmal in this role.

[kumo7]

Well, you can only have the Lewis and Fernando that are this year, and not some fantasy team from years gone by - and let's be a little real, Mercedes are utterly lost this year, so what worth is Lewis actually providing?

If we credit those drivers for developing great cars, why can't we credit Charles for any input he had in the F1-75?

You want to go real, the you know that measurable input is quite critical. He needs to win, but he could not.

Could Ferrari operate differently ? That is the quest.


Which means Ferrari changes something, including the racing operation and the policy on drivers…?

Edited by kumo7, 15 September 2022 - 23:13.

[kumo7]

1992/93 were failry bad years for Ferrari but they never had a car like they have this season.

 

Ferrari management needs to be terminated across the board IMO.

 

If they don't recognize this then they deserve to be the butt end of F1.

 

That's the thing: it doesn't matter how good you are if your pitwall is so incompetent. Leclerc had a handy lead at Monaco: it's quite the feat to turn that into a fourth place come the end of the race.

 

Still 2023 Ferrari is perhaps the best car on the grid. And Charles is failingto compete already for the WDC. This is a erious issue.

The guys I mentioned truly made sure that the race unfolded in a different ways. I donno what exacltly these drivers do off the race trak, but on the race week-ends.

For sure it addrfesses the operation in a differnt ways that the LEC is doing, hence achieving more. 

Should it be solely due Mattia, then Ferrari will lose the brain behind the 2022, the best car on the track.

[Ragamuffin]

More disappointment than anything. Ferrari fighting for the championship is one of the sports' great frissons.

[Konsta]

Binotto is utterly clueless - from motorsport.com:

 

Reflecting on the early season races, as he was talking before the Hungarian GP, Binotto said even post-race analysis of the decisions made had not highlighted blunders.

“While maybe you may see Monaco, Silverstone and Paul Ricard as issues, I don't see them as issues, because I think we made sometimes the right decisions,” he explained.

“I'm not convinced right now that what we made was wrong. I am still convinced that we made what was the right decision at the time. Unlucky sometimes, but not wrong.

 

He is happy that they get things right SOMETIMES for crying out loud!!

[ConsiderAndGo]

Binotto is utterly clueless - from motorsport.com:

Reflecting on the early season races, as he was talking before the Hungarian GP, Binotto said even post-race analysis of the decisions made had not highlighted blunders.
“While maybe you may see Monaco, Silverstone and Paul Ricard as issues, I don't see them as issues, because I think we made sometimes the right decisions,” he explained.
“I'm not convinced right now that what we made was wrong. I am still convinced that we made what was the right decision at the time. Unlucky sometimes, but not wrong.

He is happy that they get things right SOMETIMES for crying out loud!!

This really does sum up the season, frankly.

Mediocrity is accepted at Ferrari. They coulda built a car two seconds a lap quicker than anyone else, and they’d still be getting all the basics wrong.

No one is asking, nor expecting, a 100% record in terms of operations, strategy, reliability etc.

But, to be happy to get SOME decisions correct, then DOUBLING DOWN on the shocking ones, is a really sad read and is telling to what we can expect from them in the next couple of years without leadership change.

He should be moved back into engineering, where he is clearly very good. He doesn’t have the personality to be TP; he’s too nice, too accommodating to other teams, has zero political nouse and doesn’t have the backbone to admit mistakes. Ferrari need a much stronger personality in that role asap.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 16 September 2022 - 08:21.

[RedRabbit]

Still 2023 Ferrari is perhaps the best car on the grid. And Charles is failingto compete already for the WDC. This is a erious issue.
The guys I mentioned truly made sure that the race unfolded in a different ways. I donno what exacltly these drivers do off the race trak, but on the race week-ends.
For sure it addrfesses the operation in a differnt ways that the LEC is doing, hence achieving more.
Should it be solely due Mattia, then Ferrari will lose the brain behind the 2022, the best car on the track.

None of those drivers you mentioned ever had to work with current Ferrari strategy and race operations team. None of them.

Have you been paying attention to how many races Hamilton has lost on strategy to his own teammate? Or how many races Alonso has started near the front of the grid and barely scraped a point due to poor Alpine strategy? So please show us a good amount of examples where those 2 made races unfold any better.

I really don't think any other drivers will get any different results to Charles and Carlos

[kumo7]

None of those drivers you mentioned ever had to work with current Ferrari strategy and race operations team. None of them.

Have you been paying attention to how many races Hamilton has lost on strategy to his own teammate? Or how many races Alonso has started near the front of the grid and barely scraped a point due to poor Alpine strategy? So please show us a good amount of examples where those 2 made races unfold any better.

I really don't think any other drivers will get any different results to Charles and Carlos

 

OK so you want fats. Have to look it up.

 

So then from me to you, I do think tat LEC is the best car on the grid. Can you imagine Lewis not winning races in one of his best Mercedes car, or one of his best McLaren cars? I can hardly do so.

How bout Fernando in one of his best Renault car? I can hardly imagine. 

 

This is what I mean. 

 

While you ask facts on individual races on how Lewis and Fernando raced, I go with global facts. This is the year of LEC.

[Astandahl]

OK so you want fats. Have to look it up.

 

So then from me to you, I do think tat LEC is the best car on the grid. Can you imagine Lewis not winning races in one of his best Mercedes car, or one of his best McLaren cars? I can hardly do so.

How bout Fernando in one of his best Renault car? I can hardly imagine. 

 

This is what I mean. 

 

While you ask facts on individual races on how Lewis and Fernando raced, I go with global facts. This is the year of LEC.

When Ferrari was the best car Rueda sent him from P1 to out of the podium 3 times. The only race that Leclerc ****ed up where he could have won is France.

 

You can't win alone in F1. You need the driver, the car and the team.

Edited by Astandahl, 16 September 2022 - 13:14.

[kumo7]

When Ferrari was the best car Rueda sent him from P1 to out of the podium 3 times. The only race that Leclerc ****ed up where he could have won is France.

 

You can't win alone in F1. You need the driver, the car and the team.

 

I agree, fully.

[taran]

When Ferrari was the best car Rueda sent him from P1 to out of the podium 3 times. The only race that Leclerc ****ed up where he could have won is France.

 

You can't win alone in F1. You need the driver, the car and the team.

True but just imagine the monumental meltdown Hamilton would have after the first time, let alone the third.

 

Top drivers push their teams and demand better performances.

 

While I disagree with Hamilton's tirade in Holland for example, it shows how he responds to (perceived) cock-ups.

Or just remember how Verstappen bitched about the DRS flap on his car.

 

Both drivers became world champion with their teams and both (still) get highly upset when things go wrong in a single race.

 

Now contrast that with Leclerc.....

[Astandahl]

True but just imagine the monumental meltdown Hamilton would have after the first time, let alone the third.

 

Top drivers push their teams and demand better performances.

 

While I disagree with Hamilton's tirade in Holland for example, it shows how he responds to (perceived) cock-ups.

Or just remember how Verstappen bitched about the DRS flap on his car.

 

Both drivers became world champion with their teams and both (still) get highly upset when things go wrong in a single race.

 

Now contrast that with Leclerc.....

Lewis had a meltdown last year in Turkey as well when he was against changing the tyres. The team went for it and they ****ed up.

 

Having a meltdown didn't really at work as this year George got all the best strategies.

[FLB]

John Elkann is going to have to show the humility he so often talks about... by admitting the decision to put Binotto in charge was wrong.

Edited by FLB, 16 September 2022 - 16:06.

[gpking]

True but just imagine the monumental meltdown Hamilton would have after the first time, let alone the third.

Top drivers push their teams and demand better performances.

While I disagree with Hamilton's tirade in Holland for example, it shows how he responds to (perceived) cock-ups.
Or just remember how Verstappen bitched about the DRS flap on his car.

Both drivers became world champion with their teams and both (still) get highly upset when things go wrong in a single race.

Now contrast that with Leclerc.....

I mean Leclerc was screaming in the radio during the race in monaco and told the team they can't do mistakes like that again after the race and they still did few races after.

[TheAviator]

Leclerc has mellowed down since 2019, I blame "psychology coaching".

Its not THE issue though. Its Binotto. His lead of team has made it laughing stock in a season where for good part of it, they had best car. Thats inexusable.

[Autodromo]

Fine, let's talk 2022, 4 wins and is it 8 or 9 poles from 16 races, not to shabby for one of the biggest failures in F1 history...

I think the point of this thread is that these numbers are not bad, but not up to the potential they have shown.  For example, winning pole and not winning the race.  And the way they have lost the top step of the podium.  I don't think it is the biggest failure in F1 history, but anyone with eyes can tell that Ferrari drops the ball more often than they move up through some great strategy or improvement to the car.

[Lowgrip]

To me, it shows Leclerc isn't a champion driver (yet).
Successful team bosses like Horner, Wolff and or even Frank Williams back in the day all accept a certain amount of 'toys out of pram' because that is part of the make up of a champion driver. People like Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Verstappen etc. all have a nice side but in the car, they are all driven and ruthless and determined to win. They all demand high performance from their respective teams and will tell them if they are not getting it. You know that as a team with these drivers. Toto even believes his team is Hamilton's trash can. Champion drivers will not accept slacking off or persistent poor performances like shoddy pits stops and incomprehensible race strategies. IIRC either Ron Dennis or Frank Williams said champion drivers were a pain in the ass but simply faster than nice ones.

We don't know if Leclerc has given Binotto a well deserved piece of his mind or not but it seems unlikely from what we have seen. And that seems the problem at Ferrari. There is nobody there to slam the table and demand improvement. There is a lack of leadership from Binotto and Leclerc and Sainz both lack the leadership abilities to step up IMO.

There is still a bit of the fabled Ferrari honeymoon going on with Leclerc (when new drivers are cherished and the old driver like Vettel discarded in the trash) and I suspect that Leclerc's position as a former Ferrari junior also prevents the team subconsciously from taking him all that seriously. Much like McLaren treated Hamilton because "they" had made him....

Leclerc clearly had the asshole vibe when fighting Vettel for the #1 position in the team. He also pulled a shitty trick at Monza 2019 to get the pole and prevent his only rival Vettel from winning the race.

There is an assassin in there but it seems buried deep all of a sudden. And until Leclerc becomes a demanding driver like the other champion drivers, he will not be joining their ranks.

And then his time at Ferrari will be short too as he'll be blamed like Alonso and Vettel and discarded.

A little detail had been left out though.

Alonso had Briatore and the entire Spain.
Hamilton had Dennis + his father.
Verstappen has Marko, his father, Horner and the entire Netherlands.
Leclerc has only Leclerc.

IMHO, taken in isolation, Leclerc at his peak has the speed + combat skills none of the drivers above can touch.

People also really underestimate the difference a team can make. We only hear about cars in terms of gaps but never about the teams.

It must be really bad as a driver when entering into the pits, somewhere in your head you are questioning if the team is being right or wrong.
Compare that with RedBull(with their lead driver at least) where you can be almost sure you can 100% trust them, not to mention the pit stops and undercuts that are always spot on.

Edited by Lowgrip, 17 September 2022 - 02:28.

[dia6olo]

A little detail had been left out though.

Alonso had Briatore and the entire Spain.
Hamilton had Dennis + his father.
Verstappen has Marko, his father, Horner and the entire Netherlands.
Leclerc has only Leclerc.

IMHO, taken in isolation, Leclerc at his peak has the speed + combat skills none of the drivers above can touch.

People also really underestimate the difference a team can make. We only hear about cars in terms of gaps but never about the teams.

It must be really bad as a driver when entering into the pits, somewhere in your head you are questioning if the team is being right or wrong.
Compare that with RedBull(with their lead driver at least) where you can be almost sure you can 100% trust them, not to mention the pit stops and undercuts that are always spot on.

100% agree.

[WindmillRacer]

Alonso had Briatore and the entire Spain.
Hamilton had Dennis + his father.
Verstappen has Marko, his father, Horner and the entire Netherlands.
Leclerc has only Leclerc.

IMHO, taken in isolation, Leclerc at his peak has the speed + combat skills none of the drivers above can touch.

 

 

You're entitled to your opinion off course, but that is nonsense IMO. Leclerc has the speed, but all those drivers posess amazing driving skills. To me, Charles has still a lot to proof.

[Muppetmad]

The point about mentors and support is a very important one. It seems to me that Leclerc's most important mentors growing up were his father and Jules Bianchi; cruelly, he has lost them both.

[ARTGP]

When did this become about Leclerc? He is certainly not the issue here....

Edited by ARTGP, 17 September 2022 - 11:39.

[RA2]

Failed this season, but they have produced the best looking engine.

 

\\

[RedRabbit]

Leclerc has mellowed down since 2019, I blame "psychology coaching".

Its not THE issue though. Its Binotto. His lead of team has made it laughing stock in a season where for good part of it, they had best car. Thats inexusable.

Binotto lacks the proper racer instinct to really pounce on opportunities. Great engineering manager, but not competitive enough as a team boss.

If he was, he would have replaced the biggest flaw so far - trackside operations and strategy, who have been allowed to blunder their way through races for almost a decade at Ferrari.

They won't challenge for any titles until those personnel are changed.

[WindmillRacer]

Binotto lacks the proper racer instinct to really pounce on opportunities. Great engineering manager, but not competitive enough as a team boss.

If he was, he would have replaced the biggest flaw so far - trackside operations and strategy, who have been allowed to blunder their way through races for almost a decade at Ferrari.

They won't challenge for any titles until those personnel are changed.

 

I think Binotto is good on the technical side, giving his position at Ferrari before he became team boss. I've read somewhere that Binotto now admits that changes are necessary, but he doesn't believe so much in changes in staff but instead in better training\knowledge.

[RedRabbit]

I think Binotto is good on the technical side, giving his position at Ferrari before he became team boss. I've read somewhere that Binotto now admits that changes are necessary, but he doesn't believe so much in changes in staff but instead in better training\knowledge.

The race operations team have all been in F1 for around 10 years. Some of them have more experience in F1 than someone like Toto Wolf or Christian Horner.

They have had enough time to gain the knowledge needed to make better decisions, and it's quite obvious the current senior level just aren't capable.

[RedRabbit]

I'm not suggesting they be fired, just replaced on the pit wall and moved into a different role at the factory maybe.