50 replies to this topic

[Zmeej]

The purpose of this thread is not to highlight the Goldenness of Yore (although there is certainly some in evidence), but rather David Croft’s monsoon flood of misplaced theatrical hysteria, vapid jocularity, and time-filling recitations of statistics as important things happen on track.

 

My fave GP has been Spa for quite some time, but during this year’s this past Sunday, finally got so fed up that I couldn’t watch more than 10 laps in fits and starts.

 

Compare the torrent of excrementality DaCr unleashes to this:

 

Thanks to “Big Zeddie” for having loaded it onto YouTube 10 days ago.

 

As an added attraction, there is, as “Chris & Christine” sez in the comments section:

 

1:02:09 James Hunt giving his idea for a Watership Down sequel.

 

 

As it happens, Hunt had been utterly silent for about half an hour prior to that, no doubt sleeping off a hangover under the desk.

 

Anyway, be it resolved that there should be a wave of outrage that washes the execrable Cravid Doft out of the booth he blights.

 

Discuss.

[William Hunt]

'You don't like too happy Alan' (to Alan Jones). Jones: "No but I'm gonna have a couple of Foster's" (Australian beer brand)

[Zmeej]

Very nice example of the Aussie’s geniality.

 

He also took the fact that Villeneuve’s spin took him out quite well.

Edited by Zmeej, 31 August 2022 - 13:49.

[Zmeej]

Hmmm.

 

Guess there will be no “wave of outrage.”

[pacificquay]

Murray was an institution but many of his commentaries of that era were in the style of radio commentaries, rather than enhancing the pictures.

 

Interesting also the “trousers on fire” thing as default only really happened much later.

 

The “and look at that” moment with Mansell in Adelaide 86 was noticeable because of it being ramped up rather than the default style of the time.

 

Also I wonder if some of the criticism of today is a snobbish thing - Hunt was a classic public school boy and Murray was quite posh too, whereas Croft and Brundle are much more of the people.

Edited by pacificquay, 01 September 2022 - 16:09.

[Leibowitz]

Not a single ‘old switcheroo’ in sight.

[HerbieMcQueen]

Murray was an institution but many of his commentaries of that era were in the style of radio commentaries, rather than enhancing the pictures.

 

Interesting also the “trousers on fire” thing as default only really happened much later.

 

The “and look at that” moment with Mansell in Adelaide 86 was noticeable because of it being ramped up rather than the default style of the time.

 

Also I wonder if some of the criticism of today is a snobbish thing - Hunt was a classic public school boy and Murray was quite posh too, whereas Croft and Brundle ar E much more of the people.

I consider Marty B a fine commentator, and a great addition to Formula One on television. It's not a class thing, at least not for me. It's a "standards in broadcasting and public life" thing, which across the board has generally suffered a sharp downturn. There's a common occurrence of infantilisation that precedes it, sadly, which explains the existence of David Croft in television broadcasting. Listening to Murray Walker (despite his many mistakes) and James Hunt still carries an air of gravitas that ensures in my mind that I'm listening to a grown adult.

[garoidb]

Murray was an institution but many of his commentaries of that era were in the style of radio commentaries, rather than enhancing the pictures.

 

Interesting also the “trousers on fire” thing as default only really happened much later.

 

The “and look at that” moment with Mansell in Adelaide 86 was noticeable because of it being ramped up rather than the default style of the time.

 

Also I wonder if some of the criticism of today is a snobbish thing - Hunt was a classic public school boy and Murray was quite posh too, whereas Croft and Brundle ar E much more of the people.

 

Yes, and it was possibly the most sensational competitive happening of the decade so the excitement was warranted.

[PlatenGlass]

As it happens, Hunt had been utterly silent for about half an hour prior to that, no doubt sleeping off a hangover under the desk.

I don't think this was massively abnormal for Hunt. James Hunt was good for the odd quote and for finding YouTube clips but I'm not sure he was a great commentator race in, race out.

[MKSixer]

I consider Marty B a fine commentator, and a great addition to Formula One on television. It's not a class thing, at least not for me. It's a "standards in broadcasting and public life" thing, which across the board has generally suffered a sharp downturn. There's a common occurrence of infantilisation that precedes it, sadly, which explains the existence of David Croft in television broadcasting. Listening to Murray Walker (despite his many mistakes) and James Hunt still carries an air of gravitas that ensures in my mind that I'm listening to a grown adult.

This.

 

It is exactly the case of the dumbing down of the sport to appeal to the greater fan-base.  For us in the States, Steve Matchett, Bob Varsha, and David Hobbs did a great job and the addition of Leigh Diffey only improved the commentary.  Having a color guy, a professional driver and a professional mechanic were fantastic to the over-wrought drama craziness that we have now.

[Primo]

It must be remembered that Murray was a commentator during an era when on-screen info was very sparse so there was a lot more information that he was responsible for bringing to our attention. Still, I think he talked too much. I think they all talk too much. Actually, I think the TV production team should look into bringing more of the relevant sounds from the cars, the tires, from the speed, into our remote viewing areas. If they did, the commentators would not feel they have to fill every second with words. Would it be so hard to have a hypercardioid mounted together with the camera? Yes, and the cameras... there's a lot they could do to bring sense of speed to our sofa's. If they did, the commentators would look like nitwits talking during a Stravinsky ballet if they'd keep the current stream of words per minute.    

[Spillage]

The “and look at that” moment with Mansell in Adelaide 86 was noticeable because of it being ramped up rather than the default style of the time.

That evening my dad fell asleep in front of the telly after a Saturday night in the pub and was woken up by Murray shouting 'AND LOOK AT THAT' when Nigel's tyre exploded. Murray could get anyone into F1!

[Zmeej]

Hmmm.

 

Of course, youse are commenting on the better of the commentators, out of affection and/or mixed feelings about the Late Great Murray,

but …

[BoDarvelle]

This.

 

It is exactly the case of the dumbing down of the sport to appeal to the greater fan-base.  For us in the States, Steve Matchett, Bob Varsha, and David Hobbs did a great job and the addition of Leigh Diffey only improved the commentary.  Having a color guy, a professional driver and a professional mechanic were fantastic to the over-wrought drama craziness that we have now.

 

This.

 

I'm hoping ESPN has it's own broadcast team going forward with the new contract and that they can find guys of a similar level. I can't stand Crofty and the Brit bias of the Sky team.

[George Costanza]

Back then... James Hunt was awesome and Murray Walker.

There's no one like Murray today.

Edited by George Costanza, 02 September 2022 - 02:04.

[William Hunt]

Martin Brundle is the best F1 commentator of all time imho. Murray Walker was great fun to listen to but... he made a lot of mistakes, like mixing up driver names or missing important information. Hunt was fun too but he was very biased, in particular to Riccardo Patrese. 

 

But my favourite commentator was maybe Jackie Stewart when he was commenting the Indy 500 races in the '70s & '80s.

Edited by William Hunt, 02 September 2022 - 02:15.

[potmotr]

Martin Brundle is the best F1 commentator of all time imho. Murray Walker was great fun to listen to but... he made a lot of mistakes, like mixing up driver names or missing important information. Hunt was fun too but he was very biased, in particular to Riccardo Patrese. 

 

 

I think what we have to consider is that for the majority of his career Murray Walker had *very* little information to work off, other than the often terrible-quality television images from local TV (Hunt and Walker didn't attend a lot of the races they commented on) and perhaps a lap scorer if they were lucky. No digital feeds saying who had stopped etc. So I think he actually did an amazing job making a race sound so exciting given the limitations.

 

I loved how straight-talking James Hunt was! He'd 100 percent not get away with some of his comments today, given the snowflakey world we live in, his commentary would instantly be clipped up and posted on social media and he'd be cancelled.

 

Some of his commentary was hilariously savage. Like this clip from the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix where Rene Arnoux and Andrea de Cesaris were racing each other, or as Hunt said "the blocker versus the blinker" (de Cesaris had a nervous tick which made him blink)

 

https://youtu.be/eI-rZPyX8b0?t=1360

Edited by potmotr, 02 September 2022 - 13:28.

[George Costanza]

I think what we have to consider is that for the majority of his career Murray Walker had *very* little information to work off, other than the often terrible-quality television images from local TV (Hunt and Walker didn't attend a lot of the races they commented on) and perhaps a lap scorer if they were lucky. No digital feeds saying who had stopped etc. So I think he actually did an amazing job making a race sound so exciting given the limitations.

I loved how straight-talking James Hunt was! He'd 100 percent not get away with some of his comments today, given the snowflakey world we live in, his commentary would instantly be clipped up and posted on social media and he'd be cancelled.

Some of his commentary was hilariously savage. Like this clip from the 1989 Canadian Grand Prix where Rene Arnoux and Andrea de Cesaris were racing each other, or as Hunt said "the blocker versus the blinker" (de Cesaris had a nervous tick which made him blink)

https://youtu.be/eI-rZPyX8b0?t=1360

James Hunt wouldn't care. He would say it still. Even today he wouldn't care about being canceled.

Edited by George Costanza, 02 September 2022 - 20:28.

[Zmeej]

This is an excellent extensive highlights video* of the 1996 Japanese GP

which underscores my personal estimation that the best team covering F1 races consisted of:

 

Murray Walker - coverage

Jonathan Palmer - colour

Tony Jardine - pits

 

This is an "upon reflection" assessment, given that for the longest time I preferred James Hunt for the many reasons potmotr outlines.

 

 

* Re the "Video unavailable" screed:

 

A hearty "Go fuc8k yourselves, Formula One Management."

Edited by Zmeej, 03 September 2023 - 23:14.

[F1 Mike]

I never liked Jonathan Palmer, found him incredibly dull to listen to. Funnily enough I enjoy listening to his lad Jolyon on 5 live and F1TV, really excellent commentator!

If Croft could just tone down the clowning around and cringey phrases like "switcheroo" I think he'd be fine. He works very well with Brundle.

But the quality of commentary we have today across the various channels and platforms is still very good overall.

Ben Edwards is like the modern Murray Walker

Edited by F1 Mike, 06 September 2022 - 23:37.

[Zmeej]

Just watched the last 35 laps of the Indycar race in Portland, Oregon, after enduring yet another round of Croftoidal bullshittery at excessive volume.

 

DaCro is such a malignant influence that for the first time in my life will say, without qualification, that Marecan coverage of racing in the USA is vastly preferable.

 

Meantime, highlight thangs from the F1 channel on Youtube suggest that its main commentator has contracted Croftitis.

[SenorSjon]

My children always wonder why he is shouting so much. F1TV has Sky commentary during FP/Q and I can't understand you would suffer a whole race with him. The F1 International feed has own commentary on races and that is much better. I really liked the BBC duo with Coutlhard and Brundle in the box. They were not too long before retired and had much inside information with many contacts still working in F1, especially with Jordan roaming the paddock. But then commercial rights flew and all things went down.

[piket]

I preffered John Watson to James Hunt in terms of color commentator.
Hunt had too many biases, and Murray as well . Sometimes both were unbearable to listen to.

[pdac]

I think the presenting team only changes things to a limited extent. The vast majority of change (both for the better and for the worse) is down to the production and direction. People in the industry today have been exposed to different experiences and different culture and have a different approach to their work. They set the tone for the coverage and the presenters just follow that remit. It's not just F1 that has changed, it's all programming output - everything.

 

Those older people who remember it being different may (will) compare things and often come to the conclusion that the past coverage was better. But the changes are a reflection of changing times and there is no way that anyone is going to resurrect the past.

[7MGTEsup]

Was never a fan of Murray but loved James Hunt's dry sarcastic commentary.

 

Back in the early/mid 90's I would quite often watch on Eurosport as I preferred Ben Edwards and John Watson.

[dissident]

My main gripe with Croft is the shouting, otherwise he's tolerable.

 

Certainly beats the local commentary I watched while growing up (back when F1 was FTA in my country).

[Jops14]

Yeah there is so much shouting, and as they’ve moved to headsets there is a noticeable echo whenever he shouts.

It just gets so tiresome, please just take a breath for a second and pause

[PitViperRacing]

It's just Croft. He sucks. He yells and gets so many basic things wrong (calling out wrong car/driver etc) I wonder how he got into commentary.

The rest of the team is good.

[cheekybru]

The worst thing about croft is he gets loud and excited thinking a car will overtake, when the car is much too far behind

Then he is talking calmly about something else and not noticing when a car is actually close and about to attempt a move 🥴

[flatlandsman]

The shouting is not actually his issue I am convinced it is being done deliberately and drivne by directors and production, I see it in all sorts of racing, Addison does it now in GTWC and BTCC< sometimes it is warranted but a lot of times it is forced, you can hear it. Bike racing is a joke, fake aggression and fake excitement from nearly every bike racing commentator, that once you hear it clouds your viewing.

 

What I loved about Murray was he knoew he got excited and every now and then he would take a breath and you would get the low, quiet Murray as he simmered again!

 

James was a perfect foil, an antidote, a kick in the reality and considering what he had to work with, little data and tiny screens his seeing of races was very good at times, not always, at times. He could see stuff going on and explain it fairly well.

 

He had opinions some of them biased, which was a shame, but I saw no issue with him criticising some of the driving of people like Jarier, Arnoux, Grouillard and the like as some of the things they did were atrocious back then!

[TMC44]

Slightly off topic. But for me the best racing  commentator was The Voice of Brands Hatch  Mr Brian Jones. What a voice, and loved by those who raced and watched at Brands. A charming gentleman.

[Whatisvalis]

For me the best team right now is on F1TV - Alex Jacques and Palmer are fantastic together - DC is ok - he dithers a bit - Alex Brundle was ok for F2, hopefully Sky poach him because he’s a bit much for a full GP.

Alex Jacques - perfect balance of passion, knowledge and humour.

[Afterburner]

For me the best team right now is on F1TV - Alex Jacques and Palmer are fantastic together - DC is ok - he dithers a bit - Alex Brundle was ok for F2, hopefully Sky poach him because he’s a bit much for a full GP.

Alex Jacques - perfect balance of passion, knowledge and humour.

I agree that they're superior to Sky, but I much preferred Ben Edwards to Alex Jacques last year. Edwards, Palmer, and Collins were the ideal trio; I don't feel like Palmer and Jacques play off each other as well because their styles are too similar.

The most important part of being a good commentator is knowing how to properly interpret and convey the emotional magnitude of what's happening on screen. Some of this, as has been pointed out, is likely a production initiative—compare Croft's typical coverage of a practice to that of a race and its night and day. Unfortunately I don't think there are currently any commentary teams in any form of racing who can do this properly. I can't tell if it's the production direction of if delivering artful monologues like Sam Posey used to do or poetically summarising the sporting consequences of pivotal moments is just a lost art now.

[Dunc]

I grew up watching GPs with Murray Walker as lead commentator but James Hunt had died by the time I was a fan. I still miss Murray's take on things, he could combine gravitas with enthusiasm and clearly had a good sense of humour.

 

In the post-Murray era...

 

Ben Edwards has been the best commentator and has come closest to Murray in terms of the quality of his broadcasts and being a pleasure to listen to. I actually liked James Allen and think a lot of the criticism of him was really unfair, so would put him in second place. Crofty I'm meh about, he's not great and I find his catchphrases annoying but he's tolerable. The two worst lead commentators have been Jonathan Legard and Alex Jacques. The former was all over the place with long soliloquys and had a style better suited to cricket then F1 while the latter has a voice that just grates on me - very personal thing but I just can't stand his accent. Of the colour commentators, both Brundle and DC started out well but are now past it and should be eased out. Palmer is half-decent, nothing exceptional. Really, I think there's a gap in the market for new commentators, both lead and colour.

Edited by Dunc, 08 September 2023 - 11:58.

[PayasYouRace]

I preffered John Watson to James Hunt in terms of color commentator.
Hunt had too many biases, and Murray as well . Sometimes both were unbearable to listen to.

Murray’s only bias was that he thought everyone was brilliant.

[PayasYouRace]

I think the presenting team only changes things to a limited extent. The vast majority of change (both for the better and for the worse) is down to the production and direction. People in the industry today have been exposed to different experiences and different culture and have a different approach to their work. They set the tone for the coverage and the presenters just follow that remit. It's not just F1 that has changed, it's all programming output - everything.

Those older people who remember it being different may (will) compare things and often come to the conclusion that the past coverage was better. But the changes are a reflection of changing times and there is no way that anyone is going to resurrect the past.

One thing I was thinking about is how modern commentators are often expected to present and advertise as well as commentate. Crofty does it for any Sky extras. Leigh Diffey has to do if for anything on the US channels. You’d never hear Murray Walker or Paul Page or whoever doing that, which is ironic for Murray because he worked in advertising.

[pdac]

One thing I was thinking about is how modern commentators are often expected to present and advertise as well as commentate. Crofty does it for any Sky extras. Leigh Diffey has to do if for anything on the US channels. You’d never hear Murray Walker or Paul Page or whoever doing that, which is ironic for Murray because he worked in advertising.

 

Everything now is more 'professional' - meaning calculated and organised by others. In the days of Murray, for example, you could go onto a TV quiz show just by writing an application and being lucky enough to be picked. Now you need to send in a video of yourself, explain what kind of person you are, go for an audition, etc. to prove that you're going to be the kind of person that fits in with what the producers and director are after.

 

The same, I think, happens with the commentary team. They need to perform according to the agenda of the producers and directors. If that involves promoting the channel they work for, then it has to be done or they are out (regardless of how good they are at the real job).

[PayasYouRace]

The same, I think, happens with the commentary team. They need to perform according to the agenda of the producers and directors. If that involves promoting the channel they work for, then it has to be done or they are out (regardless of how good they are at the real job).

And unfortunately it’s to the detriment of the broadcast. We’re not getting the best person for the job.

[flatlandsman]

Murray did not think everyone was brilliant, if you actually listen back at times he is fairly critical of some drivers!

 

I think in typical Murray and BBS style he was the consummate professional, and would not stoop to bad mouthing drivers, that was James' job!

 

But he did do it now and again!

[azza200]

He did say some negative comments about some of  drivers the pay drivers in F1 from 1990 to 1998. Ricardo Rosset at Monaco comes to mind for one example 

 

[Dunc]

Murray was from a particular generation of commentators, who didn't do the job full-time for many years and had to have 'proper' jobs to support themselves as TV wasn't seen as a career. In addition, they had usually experienced the Second World War. In Murray's case, he served on the front line as a tank commander and then rose to the top of advertising, an incredibly tough industry. He could look at F1 with a sense of perspective which is sadly lacking from most people working in F1 media (and media in general - speaking as former media bod) today. Bill McLaren was another good example of this. We won't have another Murray because people going into media now see it as a career rather than a hobby and often have little experience of life outside of it. Ironically, TV is not what it was and increasingly we're starting to see more and more of the best F1 content move online, hopefully creating a new generation of talent who might be an antidote to what we have now.

[DW46]

Murray was from a particular generation of commentators, who didn't do the job full-time for many years and had to have 'proper' jobs to support themselves as TV wasn't seen as a career. In addition, they had usually experienced the Second World War. In Murray's case, he served on the front line as a tank commander and then rose to the top of advertising, an incredibly tough industry. He could look at F1 with a sense of perspective which is sadly lacking from most people working in F1 media (and media in general - speaking as former media bod) today. Bill McLaren was another good example of this. We won't have another Murray because people going into media now see it as a career rather than a hobby and often have little experience of life outside of it. Ironically, TV is not what it was and increasingly we're starting to see more and more of the best F1 content move online, hopefully creating a new generation of talent who might be an antidote to what we have now.

Easy to forget Murray was commentating on a Sunday having been developing the Groundhog and A Mars a day.

[Collombin]

A Mars a day.

Murray said he didn't do that one, but he was probably mistaken.

[DevilDare]

Considering before Croft we had to deal with the likes of Jonathan Legard and James Allen... yeah I'll take Crofty.

 

The hate how he simplifies the sport is unjustified as I'm sure he and Brundle are instructed to do so as evident every GP weekend when they explain DRS, tyre rules etc etc. for the umpteenth time. The shouting and the mistakes.. fair enough, it can get annoying but the so called "Murrayisms" that everyone loved are basically just that. One of the early replies above about the difference being is that it sounded more adult like has to be one of the more self pretentious things I have read on here and that is saying a lot.

Edited by DevilDare, 07 September 2023 - 11:35.

[Risil]

Murray was from a particular generation of commentators, who didn't do the job full-time for many years and had to have 'proper' jobs to support themselves as TV wasn't seen as a career. In addition, they had usually experienced the Second World War. In Murray's case, he served on the front line as a tank commander and then rose to the top of advertising, an incredibly tough industry. He could look at F1 with a sense of perspective which is sadly lacking from most people working in F1 media (and media in general - speaking as former media bod) today. Bill McLaren was another good example of this. We won't have another Murray because people going into media now see it as a career rather than a hobby and often have little experience of life outside of it. Ironically, TV is not what it was and increasingly we're starting to see more and more of the best F1 content move online, hopefully creating a new generation of talent who might be an antidote to what we have now.

 

For all the virtues of Youtube sports content I'm not so sure "sense of perspective" is a phrase I'd use to describe it

[Mart280]

I think Croft comes across as being to cosy and having had his feet under the table for too long, I would love to see Ben Anderson given the job, it would be a return to a slightly more cerebral approach to the race commentary and I think he would work well with Brundle.

[Dunc]

Murray said he didn't do that one, but he was probably mistaken.

 

'Trill make budgies bounce with health' was his claim to fame.

[DW46]

Murray said he didn't do that one, but he was probably mistaken.

I think I read his Autobiography in the early 00’s, a fascinating life and eye opener for this of us born in the 80’s 😂

[DW46]

'Trill make budgies bounce with health' was his claim to fame.

Gonna fess up, not heard that one 😂

[Dunc]

Gonna fess up, not heard that one

 

My late mum remembered it when it came up on 'This is your life' in the 1990s.

 

For all the virtues of Youtube sports content I'm not so sure "sense of perspective" is a phrase I'd use to describe it

 

Fair point! Really we just need people in F1 - on track/off track/in related media and support businesses who have some experience of life outside it. The generation of drivers up until the late 70s would have been able to remember the war/post-war reconstruction etc so at least had some understanding that for all we love it, F1 isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. Toto Wolff is maybe the closest we have at the moment with his career in business and near fatal accident, as recounted on Desert Island Discs.