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How do you solve a problem like Colton Herta?


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#1201 markpenske

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 14:51

Well, 2023 is going to have a little less interest than it could have had. Would have been fascinating to see how Herta would have gotten on.

I agree 100%. I feel hugely disappointed. Even though with AT he would most likely been battling for 8th-15th place His personality and exiting driving style would have been something to look forward to. To bad they couldn't have worked out a winter series for him to gain the needed points.



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#1202 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 14:59

As a slight tangent, I am following the OK Karting World Championships through the thread started by William Hunt, as well the official FIA youtube channel - And note how few US drivers there are, rest of the world much better represented.

 

https://forums.autos...arno-15-180922/



#1203 Disgrace

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 18:21

The super license system seems to be a giant con. Perhaps at one time it really was put in place to prevent drivers buying a ride. But it's now a handy way to ensure drivers pay monopoly feeder series fees. To get to F1, you have to buy your way up.



#1204 RA2

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 10:00

The super license system seems to be a giant con. Perhaps at one time it really was put in place to prevent drivers buying a ride. But it's now a handy way to ensure drivers pay monopoly feeder series fees. To get to F1, you have to buy your way up.

 

 

second in F2 2020 = twentieth in Indy 2022

 

 super license is the gold standard in grading drivers as eligible for F1  :rotfl:  



#1205 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 10:40

I don't get why some people so badly want to stick to this rule. The rule is 1. fairly new and 2. brought into life to keep bad pay drivers out of F1. Not Indycar race winners.

F1 has been going about without this rule for some 65 years and now all of a sudden F1 will get completely out of control if we let Herta bypass the SL system.

Exactly this - the system as it is didn't exist until Verstappen entered F1 straight from F3. What a disaster that was. 😐

A minimum age limit is fine, but a points system aligned to championship position to earn a superlicense, that takes multiple years to accumulate is so unnecessary, all to get into a series where a driver is unlikely to even win a race, possibly his entire career.

Edited by RedRabbit, 19 September 2022 - 10:41.


#1206 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 10:43

The super license system seems to be a giant con. Perhaps at one time it really was put in place to prevent drivers buying a ride. But it's now a handy way to ensure drivers pay monopoly feeder series fees. To get to F1, you have to buy your way up.


Didn't prevent Latifi getting a ride.

#1207 alframsey

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 11:58

Can someone remind me why they felt the need to introduce a points system for super license?

#1208 AncientLurker

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:17

Can someone remind me why they felt the need to introduce a points system for super license?

- Greedy/desperate teams taking on terrible pays drivers. (Which it hasn’t stopped, just improved the quality of pay drivers a bit.)
- Good young drivers not paying (literally) their dues in the lower ranks and jumping straight to F1, exposing the ladder system to be a bit of a sham. This all but forces drivers through the ladder now. We won’t have a Max or Kimi bursting into the scene out of nowhere again.
- Funnel more money through FIA and their ladder system.

I am good with the 18+ limit they added after Max btw. I think the pressures and risks for very young adults could be a dangerous combination. The point system is a scam.

Edited by AncientLurker, 19 September 2022 - 12:21.


#1209 noikeee

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:40

Can someone remind me why they felt the need to introduce a points system for super license?

Three reasons:

1. Stop incredibly bad paydrivers with no results anywhere, buying F1 seats
2. Normalise the series so it becomes a clear ladder of F4-F3-F2-F1. Previously it was often a very confusing mess with lots of different championships with conflicting names.
3. Stop underage people from getting into F1

Unfortunately it seems to be creating all sorts of unintended (?) consequences as well. It seems to be helping the slightly less rubbish very wealthy paydrivers, that can just about get feeder series results after paying for the best F2-F3 seats. The Mazepins and Latifis.

Edited by noikeee, 19 September 2022 - 12:42.


#1210 JvsKVB77

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:43

Didn't prevent Latifi getting a ride.

And he was not get it before he can achieve a good result. Of cource system can be better if it will give less points for second,third etc seasons.

 

 

A minimum age limit is fine, but a points system aligned to championship position to earn a superlicense, that takes multiple years to accumulate is so unnecessary, all to get into a series where a driver is unlikely to even win a race, possibly his entire career.

Before points system driver from Indycar need to be in top-4 in any of last 2 seasons, so Herta does not have enough result even for that system. 
System is good, points for some series maybe need correction sometimes, but general principle, that you must have good results to enter F1 - nothing wrong with it. 


#1211 alframsey

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:47

It seems to me then that it was created with justifiable intentions but I thought of problems, yet he FIA are slow to accept, recognise and fix these issues? I’m sure they will put another problematic fix in place in ten years time.

I honestly can’t believe how **** our governing body is.

#1212 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:49

Didn't prevent Latifi getting a ride.

 

I'm not sure it should either to be honest.

 

Latifi is "only" a few tenths off of Albon and Russell. He'll never be a front-runner but he's not one of the worst drivers ever to race in the sport. And he's certainly not a dangerous or dirty driver.

 

Williams would not have taken him onboard if he isn't delivering a greater net positive contribution to the team than the available alternatives. Which may include keeping the team alive in the first place, or funding development that lowers lap times (which also benefits the quicker driver in the team).



#1213 pdac

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 12:58

The superlicence system is a filter. It's not a perfect filter, though, so sometimes things get through that should not and sometimes things that should pass through fail to do so. That's the nature of the beast. Is it unfit for purpose? I don't think so. Could it be improved? Of course.



#1214 absinthedude

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 13:32

Didn't prevent Latifi getting a ride.

 

And quite right too. He's not set the world on fire, and is currently the worst driver on the grid....but he's competent, not a danger on track, not so far off the pace that he causes regular problems being lapped five times by the leaders and so on. THAT is the kind of driver that the SL was designed to weed out. Not Latifi. Not Herta. Not anyone the likes of which we've seen in the last decade and a half or so. 



#1215 absinthedude

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 13:35


I honestly can’t believe how **** our governing body is.

 

On Saturday the wife called Virgin Media to reduce our cable/internet bill as we just finished our two year contract and the monthly cost jumped 30% - we split the bills, I do some she does some...good for both our credit ratings. First thing on the table was that we were perfectly happy to drop all the sports channels including Sky F1. 

 

Long story short, swapped the sports for Netflix and are still paying less than before the price hike.  Bye, Sky Sports F1.



#1216 RedRabbit

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 14:46

And quite right too. He's not set the world on fire, and is currently the worst driver on the grid....but he's competent, not a danger on track, not so far off the pace that he causes regular problems being lapped five times by the leaders and so on. THAT is the kind of driver that the SL was designed to weed out. Not Latifi. Not Herta. Not anyone the likes of which we've seen in the last decade and a half or so.


So, in this thread, Latifi is ok, but in any other driver ranking threads or the Williams threads he is considered a useless waste of a seat, that could be taken by a driver with more talent or ability.

Latifi has been badly exposed this year.

And the money he brings doesn't overcome his lack of pace in terms of car development - and it isn't just ultimate speed, it's overall race pace too. The wiser/more experienced F1 engineers know that the cheapest way to make a car faster is to get a better driver.

#1217 eibyyz

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 15:44

Colton Thomas Herta:  Wise beyond his years.  https://www.motorspo...cense/10371269/



#1218 absinthedude

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 18:34

So, in this thread, Latifi is ok, but in any other driver ranking threads or the Williams threads he is considered a useless waste of a seat, that could be taken by a driver with more talent or ability.

Latifi has been badly exposed this year.

And the money he brings doesn't overcome his lack of pace in terms of car development - and it isn't just ultimate speed, it's overall race pace too. The wiser/more experienced F1 engineers know that the cheapest way to make a car faster is to get a better driver.

 

I think you completely misunderstand the purpose of the superlicense.

 

It's nothing to do with ensuring only the best of the best of the best get through. it's to ensure a minimum standard of competence such that all SL holders don't pose a danger on track. Teams then choose from the pool of SL holders. 

Yes, Latifi is the slowest and least good driver in the field in 2022. He's not doing much good for Williams. But he's not actually a danger to himself or his competitors. He'd easily make the 107% rule, for example, and isn't a wildman on track. 



#1219 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 18:42

So over the past 20 years or so, who would it have saved us from? Yuji Ide who was successful in Japan and had nearly 40 super license points? Was the issue there that he was inept or his team was crap and there wasn't much testing? Chandok and Senna? GP2 winners after all(but not very high) but same issues with their teams being terrible and them not getting any running ahead of time. You could have put the reigning F2 car in the Super Aguri or the Hispania and they'd still have been in the way.

 

There have been a lot of ride buyers but who has truly been unworthy? 



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#1220 Muppetmad

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 18:54

Mazepin was not fit for F1 (and no, not simply because he was slow and crash-prone - he had proven himself a menace in the junior formulae too) - but he qualified for a super licence anyway.



#1221 BobbyRicky

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 19:15

So over the past 20 years or so, who would it have saved us from? Yuji Ide who was successful in Japan and had nearly 40 super license points? Was the issue there that he was inept or his team was crap and there wasn't much testing? Chandok and Senna? GP2 winners after all(but not very high) but same issues with their teams being terrible and them not getting any running ahead of time. You could have put the reigning F2 car in the Super Aguri or the Hispania and they'd still have been in the way.

 

There have been a lot of ride buyers but who has truly been unworthy? 

 

I nominate Sakon Yamamoto as winner of the "And what is Deletraz doing?"-award.

Honorable mentions to Estaban Tuero, Narain Karthikeyan and Zsolt Baumgartner.



#1222 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 19:21

Karthikeyan had 4th overall in British F3 and World Series by Renault. Not my first pick but hardly objectionable.

 

Baumgartner really had a really poor run in F3000, even by anemic F3000 standards, but turned out to not be a menace once he was on the grid; oddly.

 

Sakon is another one who would have been way way way down the list of drivers you'd sign.

 

This is also largely an issue of the situations the teams find themselves in. Williams/Haas aside, who needs drivers with lots of money*? They've each had two of our questionable ride buyers but who managed to fit the FIA's exacting requirements.

 

 

*the whole The Strolls do F1 thing is a law unto itself



#1223 Myrvold

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 19:23

Senna? GP2 winners after all(but not very high) but same issues with their teams being terrible and them not getting any running ahead of time.


Senna was 2nd overall in GP2. That's an instant super licence.



#1224 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 19:33

Right but 2nd in GP2 in a **** team with no testing is more of an issue than a wanker who gets a proper chance to prepare. The worst is someone who isn't really F1 class AND has a garbage opportunity. 

 

Marussia and Caterham had some no names but that's because those teams were broke, not really the weakness of the SL.



#1225 markpenske

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 19:41

Colton Thomas Herta:  Wise beyond his years.  https://www.motorspo...cense/10371269/

"Asked if he had considered accumulating the requisite points by competing in Asian Regional Formula in this off-season and whether he had chased FP1 opportunities, Herta replied: "I think it was possible to do something like [Asian Regional Formula], but I feel like I shouldn't have to go race in a feeder series after I've been a professional driver for four years. So I didn't fully consider it."

To me that is the most disappoint part of that interview. If my math is correct Herta will need to win the Indycar championship next year in order to qualify. That seems like an impossible task driving for Andretti Autosports.



#1226 AustinF1

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 20:23

BTW, y'all ... I started a poll regarding both this issue and the Andretti Autosport situation. Love to see what you think!

 

https://forums.autos...a-sl-situation/



#1227 noikeee

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 22:24

So over the past 20 years or so, who would it have saved us from? Yuji Ide who was successful in Japan and had nearly 40 super license points? Was the issue there that he was inept or his team was crap and there wasn't much testing? Chandok and Senna? GP2 winners after all(but not very high) but same issues with their teams being terrible and them not getting any running ahead of time. You could have put the reigning F2 car in the Super Aguri or the Hispania and they'd still have been in the way.

There have been a lot of ride buyers but who has truly been unworthy?

Ide, Yamamoto, Yoong.

I do think you have a point that the reason why this happened is the teams were running on fumes. Thanks to F1 dramatically increasing in popularity and the budget cap and the scarcity of the 10 franchises, this isn't really a massive issue anymore. But it was an ongoing issue for a very long time before. It was worse in the 90s, we really had some dismal ones then, the Lavaggis and Deletrazes and Philippe Adams etc etc.

People the other day on the chat were mentioning (you can name yourself if you're lurking, mate :D), quite rightly, that if it wasn't for the Superlicense points we'd probably have had Gelael, Roy Nissany, so we don't know for sure to what extent it has worked, maybe it's done more good than it looks like at first.

So idk I think I'm pro relaxing the system, certainly for some series like Indycar, but I'm not 100% sure of getting rid of it, I think there's pros and cons.

Edited by noikeee, 19 September 2022 - 22:25.


#1228 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 22:40

I think without the SL barrier those guys still don't really get in because there aren't the desperate teams to the same extent. I dunno, maybe they take Galael rather than Latifi? I think Latifi is actually kinda worse, a la Mazepin, because you just spend the cubic dollars to tick the FIA boxes and you get in. It's just a more nuanced and niche disappointment because it's off the radar. Kinda like Mercedes letting Mazepin run in their car to get ready. It's just...eww. Is everything for sale, even the world championship team?


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 19 September 2022 - 22:45.


#1229 noikeee

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 23:08

I think without the SL barrier those guys still don't really get in because there aren't the desperate teams to the same extent. I dunno, maybe they take Galael rather than Latifi? I think Latifi is actually kinda worse, a la Mazepin, because you just spend the cubic dollars to tick the FIA boxes and you get in. It's just a more nuanced and niche disappointment because it's off the radar. Kinda like Mercedes letting Mazepin run in their car to get ready. It's just...eww. Is everything for sale, even the world championship team?


That's why I think there might be a danger, even now, of things going all the way down to simply appointing the highest bidder, at least in some cases.

The SL attempts to soften this, it just does it clumsily.

#1230 noikeee

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 00:33

To rephrase everything.

I guess it all depends on whether we think it's worth it to lose the odd good guy (Herta) so we can upgrade the extremely terrible guys (Gelael, Nissany,... Deledda??) with the only slightly very terrible guys (Mazepin, Latifi).

#1231 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 00:42

I'd say so. It's supposed to be a sport and a meritocracy and blah blah. 

 

But more pragmatically, we aren't actually at that much risk of Galael/Nissany/etc/et al so sacrificing Herta is basically believing in sorcery.



#1232 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 07:41

Also; do we rather have a backmarker team that runs e.g Nissany and Pourchaire (just making something up here) - or no such back marker team at all?

 

Because that's often what it boils down to. It's not that these teams are taking the money from pay drivers and pocketing them, leaving more talented drivers outside of the sport. It's often the case that the pay drivers are the pre-requisite for the team existing at all.



#1233 loki

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 07:55

I reckon ol’ Bin has “fixed” this problem…



#1234 Clatter

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 08:26

Not sure you can say that Perez is in F1 because of Red Bull. Verstappen... well, Red Bull were the only ones that gave him a straight to F1 shot, and after that deal was signed he was added to the "jr.team".
It does feel a bit weird to add in Perez and keeping Ricciardo there.


Enrique Bernoldi? The driver that Marko was so furious about Sauber not taking instead of Räikkönen, that it basically marked the process of leaving Sauber (left as a title sponsor after that year) and getting their own team. Then proceeded to give a chance to Patrick Friesacher, Robert Doornbos and Scott Speed. I mean, there are drivers that has failed. Then you have all the drivers that have been signed up to the jr.team and not made. When you have "unlimited" money, 4 F1 seats to fill, so you are a popular jr.team, and only pay 50% of the budget needed for the juniors, you can sign a lot of drivers, some are bound to be a success. There are more "fails" than successes.

Perez is 100% in F1 because of Red Bull. He obviously wasn't a RB junior, but he was out the door without RB.

#1235 RedRabbit

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 08:38

I think you completely misunderstand the purpose of the superlicense.

It's nothing to do with ensuring only the best of the best of the best get through. it's to ensure a minimum standard of competence such that all SL holders don't pose a danger on track. Teams then choose from the pool of SL holders.
Yes, Latifi is the slowest and least good driver in the field in 2022. He's not doing much good for Williams. But he's not actually a danger to himself or his competitors. He'd easily make the 107% rule, for example, and isn't a wildman on track.


With only 20 seats available on purpose, F1 is supposed to be the best, not just "can you safely drive an F1 car?"

#1236 RedRabbit

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 08:59

I think you completely misunderstand the purpose of the superlicense.

It's nothing to do with ensuring only the best of the best of the best get through. it's to ensure a minimum standard of competence such that all SL holders don't pose a danger on track. Teams then choose from the pool of SL holders.
Yes, Latifi is the slowest and least good driver in the field in 2022. He's not doing much good for Williams. But he's not actually a danger to himself or his competitors. He'd easily make the 107% rule, for example, and isn't a wildman on track.


If it was just to ensure a bare minimum of competence, then surely any driver with a couple seasons of finishing in the Top 10 of IndyCar has shown that? Same with Super Formula.

#1237 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 11:47

With only 20 seats available on purpose, F1 is supposed to be the best, not just "can you safely drive an F1 car?"

 

Then 2nd in F2 shouldn't be enough either? Because that gave Latifi enough points. And he isn't among "the best".

Or maybe gove a 20% reduction in super license points for every new season you do in the same championship? That would've kept Latifi out with his results.



#1238 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 11:47

Perez is 100% in F1 because of Red Bull. He obviously wasn't a RB junior, but he was out the door without RB.

 

But the list I posted my answer to had both Perez and Ricciardo there...



#1239 JvsKVB77

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:01

 

Or maybe gove a 20% reduction in super license points for every new season you do in the same championship? That would've kept Latifi out with his results.

Yes, this correction for feeder series in system would be very usefull. 



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#1240 Clatter

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:16

But the list I posted my answer to had both Perez and Ricciardo there...

But the list wasn't of drivers who got to F1 because of RB, but are in RB because of them. Perez would not be in F1 now without RB.

#1241 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:18

If you did 3 years of F2 and finished 6th, 6th, and 5th you'd get a license. 5th, 4th, and 4th would do it in F3. With enough money those are easily achievable.



#1242 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:18

But the list wasn't of drivers who got to F1 because of RB, but are in RB because of them. Perez would not be in F1 now without RB.

 

I can't see Perez out of F1, there's enough Mexican sponsorship. He might not want to drive for Haas however.



#1243 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:19

Yes, this correction for feeder series in system would be very usefull. 

 

That would then remove any realistic chance for anyone in SuperFormula, IndyCar, WEC and loads of other championships.



#1244 Myrvold

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:19

But the list wasn't of drivers who got to F1 because of RB, but are in RB because of them. Perez would not be in F1 now without RB.

 

"It does feel a bit weird to add in Perez and keeping Ricciardo there."



#1245 JvsKVB77

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:20

If you did 3 years of F2 and finished 6th, 6th, and 5th you'd get a license. 5th, 4th, and 4th would do it in F3. With enough money those are easily achievable.

How many bad drivers have been able to be 6 in F2 at first year? 



#1246 JvsKVB77

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:21

That would then remove any realistic chance for anyone in SuperFormula, IndyCar, WEC and loads of other championships.

Simlpy make rule, that reduction only for feeder series, not for this. 



#1247 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:35

How many bad drivers have been able to be 6 in F2 at first year? 

 

I was being generous. You really only need a 6th and a 4th in your final two years. You could go Last, last, 6th, 4th and get into F1. Cream of the crop.



#1248 JvsKVB77

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 12:50

I was being generous. You really only need a 6th and a 4th in your final two years. You could go Last, last, 6th, 4th and get into F1. Cream of the crop.

Yes, that why system need be more tighten for drivers with many seasons in one feeder series. 



#1249 William Hunt

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 16:05

With only 20 seats available on purpose, F1 is supposed to be the best, not just "can you safely drive an F1 car?"

 

Are saying that Latifi is 'amongst the best' and better as Herta then? Imho teams should be free to choose their driver but then there also should be 30 instead of 20 cars