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Do the VSC rules need to change?


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Poll: Do the VSC rules need to change? (88 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the perceived strategic benefit of pitting under VSC be countered?

  1. It should stay as it is (51 votes [57.95%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.95%

  2. VSC should be abandoned, SC only (5 votes [5.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.68%

  3. VSC should not allow a shorter pitstop than under normal racing conditions (27 votes [30.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.68%

  4. Red flag and restart every time (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Other (explain) (5 votes [5.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 5.68%

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#1 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:49

Do the VSC rules need to change? Should you be allowed a shorter pitstop under VSC? Should more be done to ensure a pitstop means the same under VSC has the same effect on strategy as under normal racing conditions?

 

Discuss.



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#2 Augurk

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:50

Well now, this is new.



#3 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:50

No. Sometimes Mercedes don't win the race, and that's OK.



#4 Risil

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:50

How would you change the VSC rules to ensure pitstops have the same time loss in yellow and green conditions?



#5 TomNokoe

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:52

Pits closed under VSC. Pits open under SC. This is the least-worst option IMO.



#6 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 15:58

How would you change the VSC rules to ensure pitstops have the same time loss in yellow and green conditions?

 

Why I created a thread to discuss.

 

Minimum pitstop time under VSC would be one.

 

The point is, creating a benefit for certain competitors during certain race conditions could be viewed as not pure sport.

 

There have clearly been occasions where the leader or second place have received a significant 'boost' in pitting under VSC conditions.

 

At the minute it feels a little bit like the house 0 number on the house roulette wheel, an equalized that serves to tip the race away from the leader. Or as in today's case, protecting a large lead.

 

It just seems out of kilter with the pureness of what racing against the clock should be.

 

To those who vote it should stay as is, why should a VSC benefit certain drivers at the cost of others? I don't see a reasonable answer to this.



#7 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:11

It all depends on where Hamilton is in relation to Verstappen, right?



#8 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:12

No. Sometimes Mercedes don't win the race, and that's OK.


Haha, so true

#9 Scotracer

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:13

You win some you lose some. 



#10 ensign14

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:15

The VSC rules are a damn sight fairer than the safety car rules.

 

It's the pitstop rules that are the problem.  Best F1 season this millennium was the one in which they banned tyre changes.  That was genuine uncertainty race by race.



#11 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:16

How would you change the VSC rules to ensure pitstops have the same time loss in yellow and green conditions?

Somebody on this forum had a great idea some time ago: use two different pit lane speed limits, one for green conditions and one for (V)SC, and adjust the latter until the time loss is the same.



#12 smitten

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:16

I think the rules for pitting under VSC, SC, and Red Flag are unfair and always have been.  They just chuck a big pile of chance into the mix, which takes some of the fun out of it for me.  The problem is, what does fair actually look like in these circumstances?  All the teams have been playing this set of rules for some years now so should have a good grasp of when they can use them in their favour.



#13 JimmyClark

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:16

The VSC rules are a damn sight fairer than the safety car rules.

It's the pitstop rules that are the problem. Best F1 season this millennium was the one in which they banned tyre changes. That was genuine uncertainty race by race.


It also had the least overtaking of any season in the past 30 years.

#14 Ben1980

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:16

Pit stops not allowed under a vsc. Or if they are , and as everything shows the difference between a normal stop and a vsc stop you have to wait the difference.

The vsc seems to be awful anyway. The gaps never stay the same.

#15 Risil

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:17

Somebody on this forum had a great idea some time ago: use two different pit lane speed limits, one for green conditions and one for (V)SC, and adjust the latter until the time loss is the same.

Make it so!



#16 AlexPrime

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:17

No, it adds an element of unpredictability.

#17 mcjohnson

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:21

The point of VSC is to neutralise the race, and this isn’t being achieved if significant strategic advantage is being gained from pitting during a VSC (VS someone who may have just pitted, for example).

The challenge is you just don’t know how long a VSC is going to last, thus making an adjustment to the pit process is impossible.

Maybe the solution is that, when you return to track, your deltas are adjusted to put you at race pace + pit stop delta.

#18 FortiFord

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:24

No, it adds an element of unpredictability.


So do banana skins

#19 smitten

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:24

Somebody on this forum had a great idea some time ago: use two different pit lane speed limits, one for green conditions and one for (V)SC, and adjust the latter until the time loss is the same.

Should we also have a factor there for VSCs that turn into full SC or Red Flags?



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#20 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:25

The point of VSC is to neutralise the race, and this isn’t being achieved if significant strategic advantage is being gained from pitting during a VSC (VS someone who may have just pitted, for example).

The challenge is you just don’t know how long a VSC is going to last, thus making an adjustment to the pit process is impossible.

Maybe the solution is that, when you return to track, your deltas are adjusted to put you at race pace + pit stop delta.

 

That could be live calculated and adjusted via delta until all cars were actually in a truly neutralised position, even if the VSC period gets extended.

 

Just requires taking gaps before VSC went live then ensure these gaps are there before restart, including shuffling anyone post pit stops.



#21 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:26

Having a slower pit speed limit during a VSC would work quite well and would be easily implemented.

I’m generally of the “win some, lose some” point of view, but if a solution is needed, then lowering the pit speed limit while the track is full course yellow would have my support.

#22 Bliman

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:29

So do banana skins

I rather have sprinklers on the track that can turn on and off at random :p. Could also help with smoke canisters.


Edited by Bliman, 04 September 2022 - 16:29.


#23 Ben1980

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:31

If the tv seems to know what the difference will likely be. And the aim is to neutralise just make them wait the difference.

#24 Beri

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:39

The VSC add another dimension to Grand Prix racing. And its fine as it is. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
I'm no fan of the VSC as it was created because of an accident that should not have happened if drivers simply have two braincells to think. Alonso nearly rearing Norris because they were racing in a yellow sector, just about when the SC came out, is an example that drivers can not be trusted to actually pay attention to a dangerous situation. Which is appalling in my book and which is ofcourse the reason why the VSC was introduced in the first place. But it is something that should not be needed if drivers simply did think with those two braincells.

#25 Laptom

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:39

Yes, let's remove another element where a TEAM can excel in.
Last year a minimum pitstop time, and now remove another tactical unpredictable variable.

What is next?

Best races, with best inventions were with a lot less rules.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

#26 ARTGP

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:40

I dunno. It depends on whether Max or Lewis benefits from it 😂

#27 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:41

Yes, let's remove another element where a TEAM can excel in.
Last year a minimum pitstop time, and now remove another tactical unpredictable variable.

What is next?

Best races, with best inventions were with a lot less rules.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

 

Well, we are told it neutralises the race.

 

Evidence shows otherwise.

 

Do you think it should neutralise the race?



#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:43

Well, we are told it neutralises the race.

Evidence shows otherwise.

Do you think it should neutralise the race?

It often neutralises the race. But that is not the intent. The intent is to slow the drivers so that marshals can work safely.

#29 P123

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:45

Well now, this is new.

 

Haha- yeah, whenever Lewis benefited from it in the past it was suddenly a topic of major consternation for some. 

 

In general, the only thing that needs to change is the entry to the pits and the exit.  They should be at VSC speed too.



#30 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:45

It often neutralises the race. But that is not the intent. The intent is to slow the drivers so that marshals can work safely.

 

A safety car does that but DOESN'T neutralise the race as it gets rid of gaps earned.

 

The very existence of the VSC is to maintain race gaps. If it doesn't do that, it needs to change or be removed.



#31 Spillage

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:45

I think they should close the pitlane during VSC periods (with an exeption made for essentual repair workr). VSC adds an element of blind luck to proceedings that you don't really get with a full SC, which at the very least brings the field together after someobody gets a cheap pitstop. With the VSC it's a crapshoot - it just hands ten seconds to the driver who pits durinbg the window and penaltises the driver who pitted just before it through no fault of their own.


Edited by Spillage, 04 September 2022 - 16:47.


#32 ARTGP

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:29

Haha- yeah, whenever Lewis benefited from it in the past it was suddenly a topic of major consternation for some. 

 

In general, the only thing that needs to change is the entry to the pits and the exit.  They should be at VSC speed too.

 

"VSC" doesn't have a "speed" though.  It's just a delta time (see Russell vs Perez at the end of the French GP).

Drivers can just blast through the entry and exit because they've already lost so much time trundling at 100kph and being physically stopped. The final sector and the first sector both contain the pitlane. 


Edited by ARTGP, 04 September 2022 - 17:30.


#33 Beamer

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:35

I miss the 'depends on what suits merc/Lewis best option...

#34 Rumblestrip

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:39

Somebody on this forum had a great idea some time ago: use two different pit lane speed limits, one for green conditions and one for (V)SC, and adjust the latter until the time loss is the same.

 

So a pit speed limit is set for safety reasons, and then you have a higher limit set when you're expecting lots of drivers to pit at the same time?



#35 Arundo

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:47

VSC, SC and Red Flagging all can give a driver a benefit as we have seen in the past many times. Only fair thing is to stop all cars on track or bring them in with no work on cars allowed and drive them out with the same gaps as before. Which requires alot of work and disruptions.

So leave it as it is as none of the options are 100% fair to everyone.

#36 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:49

So a pit speed limit is set for safety reasons, and then you have a higher limit set when you're expecting lots of drivers to pit at the same time?

No, the speed limit would have to be lower during (V)SC so you won't gain any time compared to a normal pit stop.

#37 Rumblestrip

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:50

VSC, SC and Red Flagging all can give a driver a benefit as we have seen in the past many times. Only fair thing is to stop all cars on track or bring them in with no work on cars allowed and drive them out with the same gaps as before. Which requires alot of work and disruptions.

So leave it as it is as none of the options are 100% fair to everyone.

 

It's a sport where thousandths of seconds can mean the difference between winning and losing, there's no way you can take all of that into account with another new procedure. I say leave it as it is. Random events are core to how sport works, the human element and all that. If we take that away what are we left with? We may as well run a computer simulation.



#38 Rumblestrip

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:50

No, the speed limit would have to be lower during (V)SC so you won't gain any time compared to a normal pit stop.

 

Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood.



#39 Arundo

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:52

It's a sport where thousandths of seconds can mean the difference between winning and losing, there's no way you can take all of that into account with another new procedure. I say leave it as it is. Random events are core to how sport works, the human element and all that. If we take that away what are we left with? We may as well run a computer simulation.


Yes that was the point of my post every option can give a driver a benefit. So yes just leave it as it is.

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#40 ensign14

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:02

It also had the least overtaking of any season in the past 30 years.

Most of the "overtakes" that decade were pitstop overtakes.



#41 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:31

No, the speed limit would have to be lower during (V)SC so you won't gain any time compared to a normal pit stop.

The (V)SC pit lane speed limit would obviously have to be track specific:
Let's say the normal speed limit is 80 km/h and the normal pit stop time loss is 20 seconds.
For some reason the (V)SC pit stop time loss at this track is only 12 seconds.
The pit lane is 400 metres, and it takes 18 seconds to travel 400 metres at 80 km/h.
So during (V)SC you'd want to increase the time it takes to travel those 400 metres
from 18 seconds
to 18 + (20 − 12) = 26 seconds
So on this track the (V)SC pit lane speed limit would have to be 55.38 km/h.

Drivers would still gain some time when stopping and leaving the pit box during (V)SC compared to a normal stop from/to 80 km/h. But only about half a second, I think.



#42 Wolbo

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:56

No. Sometimes Mercedes don't win the race, and that's OK.

:lol:

 

Nailed it.



#43 pacificquay

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:10

No. It encourages teams to think on their feet and leads to drama.



#44 RedRabbit

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:13

It often neutralises the race. But that is not the intent. The intent is to slow the drivers so that marshals can work safely.


Can we get this on T-shirt?

#45 Otaku

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:14

Close the pits, done

#46 Gravelngrass

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:16

Most of the "overtakes" that decade were pitstop overtakes.


Yep, no stops is the best way to maximize the probability of on-track racing between cars that have similar tyre (obvious) and weight conditions. See Motogp before their aero dependency damaged the racing…

#47 RedRabbit

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:18

A safety car does that but DOESN'T neutralise the race as it gets rid of gaps earned.

The very existence of the VSC is to maintain race gaps. If it doesn't do that, it needs to change or be removed.


No. It isn't. It is to slow cars down in situations that require marshalls track side for a short time.

#48 wj_gibson

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:36

I think that the benefits and losses per driver tend to balance out over the season as there will be multiple VSC periods across 22 races. I would just leave it as it is.



#49 Timorous

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 20:04

I would overhaul the whole thing.

1) agree with Tom and ban pit stops under VSC. If you happen to be in the pits when the VSC is called then you got incredibly lucky at the timing but that would be pretty rare.

2) abolish the safety car. If a situation like Bottas occurs where a VSC is insufficient then red flag the race.

3) under the red flag you can change tyres, front wings and bodge the car but there is a time penalty. This penalty depends on the work done. Changing tyres costs whatever the pit lane loss calculation is for that race, changing a front wing costs that + 10s (or whatever the average front wing change takes). Bodging body work is a bit trickier but you could time how long they are doing it for and add that on. Doing multiple things just costs the most expensive one.

So by way of example if 1st is 10s ahead of second, a red flag drops and 1st changes tyres they lose 18s so would be 8s behind 2nd. It also means if there is damage to a car it can be repaired but it still costs time.

4) when the cars enter the pits under a red flag they stop infront of the cars garage instead of in the fast lane, this makes it easier to do shuffling around.

5) once the order is given that the race will resume all the work done is added to each competitors time and a new order is generated.

6) cars are released from the pits 1 by 1 with the gap between each car maintained. This will be by distance not time gap since the speed differentials will mess up releasing by time delta.

7) the race resumes immediately on exiting the pits so there is no lost lap of cars trundling down the pits.

While all of the above sounds like a whole lot longer than a current red flag I don't think it will be, calcs can be done pretty easily, since the cars are not in the fast lane shuffling prior to restart is easier. Also no faffing with lapped cars, they are positioned as it was prior to the red flag.

The whole point of the above is to neutralise a race and lose a minimal amount of laps without screwing strategy for drivers. It means the vsc and red flag no longer have major strategic impacts like they do now and you won't lose 3/4/5 laps of the race to a safety car.

I guess in the case with a run away winner it would mean that it doesn't throw a spanner in the works but in cases with interesting strategy offsets it won't ruin them and the latter is pretty common.

#50 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 20:26

The (V)SC pit lane speed limit would obviously have to be track specific:
Let's say the normal speed limit is 80 km/h and the normal pit stop time loss is 20 seconds.
For some reason the (V)SC pit stop time loss at this track is only 12 seconds.
The pit lane is 400 metres, and it takes 18 seconds to travel 400 metres at 80 km/h.
So during (V)SC you'd want to increase the time it takes to travel those 400 metres
from 18 seconds
to 18 + (20 − 12) = 26 seconds
So on this track the (V)SC pit lane speed limit would have to be 55.38 km/h.

Drivers would still gain some time when stopping and leaving the pit box during (V)SC compared to a normal stop from/to 80 km/h. But only about half a second, I think.

 

I'm not sure if this is necessarily correct. If you're 18 seconds behind under normal racing conditions (so a pitstop) then that will increase under a VSC. I think they reduce their speed by 40%, so while the VSC is out, the gap will be more like 30 seconds. So you'd need to make the speed limit low enough so that they'd lose 30 seconds by pitting.