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Sainz yellow flag pass on Ocon


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#1 SenorSjon

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:51

When Bottas car was already on the main straight with a frantic yellow flag being waved, Sainz completed the pass on Ocon. The team ordered him back, but he didn't give it back and then we got the SC.

No investigation was on the screens for what seemed a very clear situation. It seemed that Sky Italia said it was the pass was instigated before the yellow flag and he could finish it. That seems like a very big can of worms and we had drivers penalized in qualy for very minor yellow infringments compared to this.
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#2 tagy22

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 16:59

Looks like Sainz was ahead. So if there was no yellow flag before the one shown it was fine.



#3 smitten

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:06

So do you have to slow before the yellow, or after you've passed the yellow?  Do you have to slow before the pit lane limit, or after you've passed it (rhetorical q, obviously).  Road etiquette would indicate you slow before you reach a sign, but racing drivers will stretch a point to breaking.

 

FWIW, I think the intent is to slow as you are approaching and that Sainz was naughty.



#4 SophieB

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:12

I think he’s ok, isn’t he? If there was no yellow flag, as long as he then was able to follow the restrictions on the upcoming zone, no foul, is there? I think the not giving back when asked just means he was taking his chances with the stewards.

 

Unless there was also a yellow flag in the sector before, I can’t see what he’d be done for here.

 

Interesting, though.



#5 Clatter

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:30

So do you have to slow before the yellow, or after you've passed the yellow? Do you have to slow before the pit lane limit, or after you've passed it (rhetorical q, obviously). Road etiquette would indicate you slow before you reach a sign, but racing drivers will stretch a point to breaking.

FWIW, I think the intent is to slow as you are approaching and that Sainz was naughty.

In the case of the pitlane, they have to be at or below the limit as they cross the line. They will leave that as late as possible. I assume the yellow flag is treated the same way. It marks the start of the zone, with a green flag at the end of it. It didn't look good as far as safety is concerned, but don't think it breaks any regs. I think the rules for yellow flags are very poor anyway, as it doesn't specify how much a driver should slow down by.

Edited by Clatter, 04 September 2022 - 17:31.


#6 ArnageWRC

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:40

You're seeing things/ or looking for things that aren't there......You're not a race official so stop worrying.

 

Another thread not needed....



#7 uzsjgb

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:48

You're seeing things/ or looking for things that aren't there......You're not a race official so stop worrying.

 

Another thread not needed....

 

I needed it, because I was asking myself the same question. I remember Ferrari telling Sainz to let Ocon pass, am I mistaken?



#8 Afterburner

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:51

I'm not sure if "I was too busy passing cars to see the yellow" is a good enough excuse to get out of a penalty for passing cars under yellow.



#9 Diablobb81

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 17:57

How the hell did he escape a penalty? https://youtu.be/Fw0-51X0t8I?t=237

#10 ARTGP

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:00

How the hell did he escape a penalty? https://youtu.be/Fw0-51X0t8I?t=237

 

Technicalities that may save Sainz aside, doesn't anyone else feel there is something fundamentally flawed with the yellow procedures when a driver is focused on his overtake when there is a car at the end of the straight? 


Edited by ARTGP, 04 September 2022 - 18:01.


#11 Diablobb81

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:03

Technicalities that may save Sainz aside, doesn't anyone else feel there is something fundamentally flawed with the yellow procedures when a driver is focused on his overtake when there is a car at the end of the straight? 

 


He is full on racing into a yellow flag, side by side with another car while another car is stopped on the race track. If safety is "well, he was 2 centimeter ahead at the yellow flag" something is really wrong.

#12 SophieB

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:05

He is full on racing into a yellow flag, side by side with another car while another car is stopped on the race track. If safety is "well, he was 2 centimeter ahead at the yellow flag" something is really wrong.

I see where you’re coming from, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn’t it.



#13 Diablobb81

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:11

I see where you’re coming from, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn’t it.

 


Sure, but he also might have been ahead because Ocon slowed down and we might get a game of chicken. It's playing fast and loose with the rules. The other point that you also have to slow down for a yellow flag. So even if he is not penalised for overtaking under yellow he should be for pretending to slow down.

#14 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:14

I see where you’re coming from, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn’t it.

I assume the whole sector was yellow, like usual, and yellow lights are on his dashboard.

To judge this we should know when the yellow flag was thrown.

#15 SenorSjon

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:15

The pass was completed under the yellow flag because Ocpn lifted earlier it seems. It is just very weird to don't see it at least investigated.

#16 Heyli

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:17

He is full on racing into a yellow flag, side by side with another car while another car is stopped on the race track. If safety is "well, he was 2 centimeter ahead at the yellow flag" something is really wrong.

You can quite clearly see in that video that the guy on the left is waving his yellow flag the whole time, and at that time Sainz was still behind Ocon.

 

How that is anything other than a clear cut penalty is beyond me.



#17 tagy22

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:49

You race until you pass the first yellow flag and resume when you pass the green. Sainz was ahead when they passed the yellow. So I don't see why there should be a penalty.

 

I agree it doesn't look great, but as said there has to be a line, we can't have drivers using their judgment of when a yellow zone begins. 


Edited by tagy22, 04 September 2022 - 18:51.


#18 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 18:58

You race until you pass the first yellow flag and resume when you pass the green. Sainz was ahead when they passed the yellow. So I don't see why there should be a penalty.
 
I agree it doesn't look great, but as said there has to be a line, we can't have drivers using their judgment of when a yellow zone begins.

Exactly. I remember a similar incident in Formula E that went unpunished/uninvestigated.

On TV, with the reverse angle, it looks incredibly stupid and dangerous because you see the hazard, then the flag, then the cars. From the drivers' perspective it's the other way around.



#19 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:03

You race until you pass the first yellow flag and resume when you pass the green. Sainz was ahead when they passed the yellow. So I don't see why there should be a penalty.

I agree it doesn't look great, but as said there has to be a line, we can't have drivers using their judgment of when a yellow zone begins.

So why did Ferrari check it and after checking asked Sainz to let Ocon by, which he refused.

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#20 Primo

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:09

Ferrari investigated it, told Carlos to give the place back but could not since there was a subsequent SC (during which he cannot give the place back since Ocon would be penalized for passing under SC) and the Ocon pitted, making it even more impossible. Still, if the crime was committed, which Ferrari believed it was, a penalty must be applied. Of course, we cannot trust Ferrari to make a correct judgement. 

Even stranger that there was nothing about the wheel gun or the unsafe release - are Ferrari in the pity-window and nobody want to lay stone upon burden?  



#21 tagy22

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:14

So why did Ferrari check it and after checking asked Sainz to let Ocon by, which he refused.

 

I'd guess they thought it was too close to call? Didn't have time to check it properly? Made a mistake?

 

Probably just trying to err on the side of caution knowing they would be able to pass Ocon easily again anyway.

 

I think the rules a pretty clear so surprised there is a debate tbh.



#22 RedRabbit

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:21

What exactly is unsafe about it though?

#23 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 19:42

Even stranger that there was nothing about the wheel gun or the unsafe release - are Ferrari in the pity-window and nobody want to lay stone upon burden?

Sainz got a penalty for the unsafe release.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 04 September 2022 - 19:42.


#24 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 20:22

What exactly is unsafe about it though?

IMHO it's not the intent of yellow flags that drivers speed up into the yellow flag just to have their front wing by 1 cm in front at the flag post. Ocon will now have learned that he should not slow down and be full throttle exactly up to the flag post as well. So next time we'll have 2 drivers racing right up to the yellow flag post. What could go wrong.


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 September 2022 - 20:24.


#25 New Britain

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 20:34

I don't know about the physical yellow flag, but it took a shockingly long time (at a guess, 30 seconds) between when Bottas pulled over [and there was a brief fire] and when the big square light (far more visible from the head of the pit straight than a flag would have been) changed from green to yellow. My guess is that a driver starting up the pit straight would as usual have clocked the big green light and carried on until he saw the stranded car.



#26 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 20:35

People must remember this (go to about 1:08):

 



#27 ANF

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 21:55

Anyway, can somebody explain why it took one full racing lap before race control deployed the SC? What were they waiting for? Bottas said his engine was gone, so he wasn't trying to get the car refired, was he? Why leave a stationary car at the end of the main straight for that long under local yellows when they could have used the VSC?


Edited by ANF, 04 September 2022 - 21:55.


#28 Myrvold

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 22:06

Leaving aside the "must slow down under yellows" side of things. If you draw a line from the marshall post and across the track, whatever car is ahead at that line has the position. I think Sainz made it just before the yellow flag, so while he hadn't cleared Ocon, he was ahead at that point in terms of timing and e.g a photo finish. 

This type of "ahead" is different that when it comes to leaving room etc. on straights and corners.



#29 Gareth

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 22:08

Another odd incident in a GP with a number of them.

1. Really oddly long time from Bottas stopping to an SC being thrown (probably not when compared to Tsunoda x2, but definitely compared to like the last 3 seasons of racing). Is this how we’re doing it now? Or was this race a one off?

2. Was DRS disabled? I don’t recall seeing that message. If it wasn’t, why on earth wasn’t it?

3. Ferrari ordering to return the position - surely a hand back doesn’t ‘cure’ a yellow flag infringement (which is a safety, as well as a fairness, issue).

4. The FIA deciding you race full beans until the exact point of the yellow flag - rather than from the moment you see a yellow, you start to exercise caution. I definitely approach it the latter way on a karting track, but maybe I do it wrong?

Odd all round.

#30 Myrvold

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Posted 04 September 2022 - 22:12

Another odd incident in a GP with a number of them.

1. Really oddly long time from Bottas stopping to an SC being thrown (probably not when compared to Tsunoda x2, but definitely compared to like the last 3 seasons of racing). Is this how we’re doing it now? Or was this race a one off?

2. Was DRS disabled? I don’t recall seeing that message. If it wasn’t, why on earth wasn’t it?

3. Ferrari ordering to return the position - surely a hand back doesn’t ‘cure’ a yellow flag infringement (which is a safety, as well as a fairness, issue).

4. The FIA deciding you race full beans until the exact point of the yellow flag - rather than from the moment you see a yellow, you start to exercise caution. I definitely approach it the latter way on a karting track, but maybe I do it wrong?

Odd all round.

 

1. Good question.

2. Because of 1 (no SC/VSC)

3. It can do in the eyes of the FIA, all down to what kind of infringement as usual...

4. You only need to be cautious in the yellow zone, so, a bit grey area there. I approached it as "full tilt until yellow" in karting, but more cautious in circuitracing and rallycross. 



#31 redreni

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 00:32

I see where you’re coming from, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, doesn’t it.


Yes but for as long as I've been following motorsport the line hasn't been drawn at the point a car actually passes the yellow flag. Yellow flags are different to green flags in that respect. You have to respect a yellow flag as soon as you see it.

Maybe that point has been lost in F1's various attempts to semi-automate yellow flag enforcement by defining when and in which sectors yellow flags are deployed and relying on the timing and scoring system to flag up any unduly fast yellow sector times. People now have a concept of the yellow flag condition only existing on the section of the track between the yellow and green flags.

Imho the stewards should be looking at the footage to see if Sainz could have seen the yellow flag before he completed that pass. And they should be looking at both drivers to see if they slowed down.

#32 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 00:41

Of course he could see the flags. They were on his side, on the pit wall. As was the car parked there

Makes all the driver safety talk kind of useless.

Let’s allow the drivers to pass, side by side, at 200mph along a yellow flag because one of them was inches in front

#33 SenorSjon

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 07:36

And without doing anything, this sets a precedent for the next time. Very odd when they shout safety every two sentences.


Edited by SenorSjon, 05 September 2022 - 07:37.


#34 SenorSjon

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 07:37

Leaving aside the "must slow down under yellows" side of things. If you draw a line from the marshall post and across the track, whatever car is ahead at that line has the position. I think Sainz made it just before the yellow flag, so while he hadn't cleared Ocon, he was ahead at that point in terms of timing and e.g a photo finish. 

This type of "ahead" is different that when it comes to leaving room etc. on straights and corners.

 

You see Ocon lifting earlier, being hesitant with the yellow flag while Sainz drops the loud pedal less and completes the pass.



#35 Roadhouse

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 08:31

If that's what they want they should extend the yellow zones by at least another marshall post, because what happend yesterday should never happen again.

#36 Sterzo

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 10:32

On UK circuits, the norm is that a stationary yellow is held out one post before the waved yellow. Was it in this case? Now, if you see a waved flag come out when you've already passed the previous post, should you not assume you are already in a yellow zone?

 

(Open to correction, as always).



#37 SophieB

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 10:44

Yes but for as long as I've been following motorsport the line hasn't been drawn at the point a car actually passes the yellow flag. Yellow flags are different to green flags in that respect. You have to respect a yellow flag as soon as you see it.

Maybe that point has been lost in F1's various attempts to semi-automate yellow flag enforcement by defining when and in which sectors yellow flags are deployed and relying on the timing and scoring system to flag up any unduly fast yellow sector times. People now have a concept of the yellow flag condition only existing on the section of the track between the yellow and green flags.

Imho the stewards should be looking at the footage to see if Sainz could have seen the yellow flag before he completed that pass. And they should be looking at both drivers to see if they slowed down.

I think there’s a couple of overlapping things going on. There’s the moral aspect - a driver should slow down when he sees there’s a hazard on track - and there’s the legal framework that has developed to try and enforce that. In my view, the latter doesn’t fully account for the situation we saw yesterday. In breaking the track up into sectors, and making strict markers between them, then yes, I think a side effect of it all is how you say - that the hazard only exists there, and the infringements can only exist there. I don’t think much can be done about that.  If the hazard is also having an effect in the preceding sector, wave the flag there too, maybe.



#38 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 10:45

On UK circuits, the norm is that a stationary yellow is held out one post before the waved yellow. Was it in this case? Now, if you see a waved flag come out when you've already passed the previous post, should you not assume you are already in a yellow zone?

 

(Open to correction, as always).

 

Changed several years ago to have a single waved yellow preceding double waved yellows. 

 

F1 however seems to have implemented dual yellow flag systems - yellow flags as before and a supposedly complimentary light panel system. 

 

However in typical F1 fashion they position the light panels at somewhat arbitrary locations that often do not match the flag point locations and seem to be operated independently of the flag marshals.

 

Thus we have have confusion between where the yellow flag zones start and finish and which, if any, takes precedence.



#39 Sterzo

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 10:53

Changed several years ago to have a single waved yellow preceding double waved yellows. 

 

F1 however seems to have implemented dual yellow flag systems - yellow flags as before and a supposedly complimentary light panel system. 

 

However in typical F1 fashion they position the light panels at somewhat arbitrary locations that often do not match the flag point locations and seem to be operated independently of the flag marshals.

 

Thus we have have confusion between where the yellow flag zones start and finish and which, if any, takes precedence.

Which could explain why no action was taken. "Did Sainz break a rule, old boy?" "Haven't a clue, mate."



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#40 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 11:24

Which could explain why no action was taken. "Did Sainz break a rule, old boy?" "Haven't a clue, mate."

 

The photo in the OP appears to show a light panel on the opposite side of the track and some distance after the flag point. - from that shot there is no way of telling what, if anything, the panel is showing, which is absolute crap design as there is no indication to marshals positioned after the panel.

 

There have been several examples of dodgy decisions regarding yellow flag infringements since the panels were introduced.

 

I recall trying to find out more about the system for a post in another topic at the time.

 

Another crap decision is the positioning of the flag point in question - pretty short sighted to place it on the end of the pit wall where it can easily be confused by pit boards etc, especially as there appears to be a marshal post directly opposite the flag point.

 

Although as a ex-flag marshal I would definitely not condone drivers disobeying the flags, from experience I would say there has to be common-sense in judging the actions of the drivers in such marginal situations as this one.

 

From the on-board camera on the Ferrari, the yellow flag was only visible after he pulled out and started to pass Ocon, who would himself have had a much better view of the flag.  Did Ocon himself lift off in response to the flag, which would have made the Ferrari move look worse than it actually was.

 

I guess the telemetry would give a true answer as to how the situation actually panned out.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 05 September 2022 - 11:25.


#41 Clatter

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 12:40

Another odd incident in a GP with a number of them.

1. Really oddly long time from Bottas stopping to an SC being thrown (probably not when compared to Tsunoda x2, but definitely compared to like the last 3 seasons of racing). Is this how we’re doing it now? Or was this race a one off?

2. Was DRS disabled? I don’t recall seeing that message. If it wasn’t, why on earth wasn’t it?

3. Ferrari ordering to return the position - surely a hand back doesn’t ‘cure’ a yellow flag infringement (which is a safety, as well as a fairness, issue).

4. The FIA deciding you race full beans until the exact point of the yellow flag - rather than from the moment you see a yellow, you start to exercise caution. I definitely approach it the latter way on a karting track, but maybe I do it wrong?

Odd all round.


Your definitely doing it wrong. They could easily get the desired effect by extending the yellow zone, but I think the problem was RC being too slow to react to the situation. The actual flag that was waved was close to the car and the Marshall probably didn't wait for any instructions, but just got on with it. There really should be some sort of investigation as to what is going on in RC.

#42 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 14:13

I assume the whole sector was yellow, like usual, and yellow lights are on his dashboard.

To judge this we should know when the yellow flag was thrown.

 

Only if RC have thrown the switch to neutralise that sector.

 

I think people are trying to make too much of this incident.

 

  • A car stops well off the racing line at the end of a long straight, which means it should be quite visible to approaching drivers.
  •  
  • The car stops roughly 100+ m past a flag post displaying a waved yellow.

Some on here are suggesting that the whole sector should be put under yellow.  I wonder what they would suggest doing if the car had stopped in the middle of the track on the exit of the corner, so totally out-of-sight to any approaching cars.

 

The whole concept of yellow flag marshalling is to display the minimum necessary to cover the situation. 

 

As the old saying from flag marshals training sessions goes - 'Remember - you cannot wave a waved yellow'. 

 

This was from the days when you only had a single yellow flag on post and it was either stationary or waved so once you were waving it you had no additional resources available to escalate you response, apart from to waving it harder and/or faster.

 

The more you over-use the yellow, the lower the response from the drivers tends to become.


Edited by ExFlagMan, 05 September 2022 - 14:26.


#43 spa2000overtake

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Posted 05 September 2022 - 16:00

Another odd incident in a GP with a number of them.

1. Really oddly long time from Bottas stopping to an SC being thrown (probably not when compared to Tsunoda x2, but definitely compared to like the last 3 seasons of racing). Is this how we’re doing it now? Or was this race a one off?

2. Was DRS disabled? I don’t recall seeing that message. If it wasn’t, why on earth wasn’t it?

3. Ferrari ordering to return the position - surely a hand back doesn’t ‘cure’ a yellow flag infringement (which is a safety, as well as a fairness, issue).

4. The FIA deciding you race full beans until the exact point of the yellow flag - rather than from the moment you see a yellow, you start to exercise caution. I definitely approach it the latter way on a karting track, but maybe I do it wrong?

Odd all round.

It seems to be me that all happened so quickly when Bottas stopped the car in after the crossed line near pitlane exit. The stewards did not put the yellow flags and safety car suddenly after Bottas retiring the car. Sainz meanwhile overtake not far away of Bottas car position Ocon, when the flags were put up simultaneously.

Have the rules changed with the yellow flags this year or was this a error from FIA?