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Should a driver be able take driving grid penalty at same time as taking car penalties?


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#1 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 13:45

This weekend Tsunoda is serving a penalty for driving infringements.

 

Alpha Tauri are taking the opportunity to change the PU, with a back of the grid penalty.

 

Does this mean that the driving penalty is negated> Should hey be able to take driving penalties alongside car penalties?



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#2 pacificquay

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 13:56

No. The driving penalty should be reassigned to his next race.



#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 13:57

No, because a driving penalty would be an opportunity to change bits of the car. If you have 5 driver grip drops and 5 for engine, you go +10. And they should rollover to the next event or something if you qualify 6 slots from the back.



#4 Clatter

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 13:59

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.

#5 jAnO76

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:02

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.


I think I like that idea. Which in itself does not bode well, as I am hopelessly wrong about a lot of things.

#6 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:24

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.

 

That is a slightly different discussion.

 

It is also odd that Perez having his first extra ICE is getting a +10 place penalty, while Max on his 2nd extra ICE is only getting +5. Probably should be the other way around.



#7 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:25

Would Alpha Tauri have changed Tsunoda's PU if he didn't have the driver penalty?



#8 cpbell

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:35

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.

 

 

I think I like that idea. Which in itself does not bode well, as I am hopelessly wrong about a lot of things.

 


I also like the idea, as it could be WCC only and therefore not penalise the driver.



#9 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:45

I also like the idea, as it could be WCC only and therefore not penalise the driver.

 

That is a tough call.

 

Just look at the performance Mercedes was able to get last year for Hamilton by putting in a few new ICE near the end of the season. 

 

The driver massively benefits from new PU parts, especially the ICE.



#10 Clatter

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:45

That is a slightly different discussion.

 

It is also odd that Perez having his first extra ICE is getting a +10 place penalty, while Max on his 2nd extra ICE is only getting +5. Probably should be the other way around.

 


It should, but that's the rule merc were able to take advantage of several times last year.

#11 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:47

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.

 

For team, driver or both?



#12 Clatter

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:50

For team, driver or both?

 


I was thinking team, but teams could still take the mickey if the were well placed, so maybe both.

#13 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 14:54

I was thinking team, but teams could still take the mickey if the were well placed, so maybe both.

 

Then the top teams will just throw engines at the car as long as they keep within the budget cap. As it doesn't matter for Ferrari, Red Bull etc. if they are 1st or 4th in the WCC. However it matters very much if they are 1st or 2nd in the WDC.



#14 Primo

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:10

I guess the drivers penalty could be added last, if there is any more spots to lose. Actually, that could always be the rule -  if you have a 5 spot penalty and find yourself at P 18 after Q and car penalty, then you can only "serve" 2 of your 5 grid spots and save the rest for later. That way, a grid penalty for Latifi would take him a whole season to serve :)



#15 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:13

I think the solution to the PU penalties rules is to allow them more for teh season.

 

If they have 7 or 8 PUs in stock for the season, they should be able to use 5 or 6 without penalty.



#16 shure

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:19

That is a slightly different discussion.

 

It is also odd that Perez having his first extra ICE is getting a +10 place penalty, while Max on his 2nd extra ICE is only getting +5. Probably should be the other way around.

yeah that anomaly came up last year, too.  It does seem really odd that the penalties decrease over time



#17 shure

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:20

I think the solution to the PU penalties rules is to allow them more for teh season.

 

If they have 7 or 8 PUs in stock for the season, they should be able to use 5 or 6 without penalty.

I would be surprised to see that happen.  It flies in the face of the entire engine conservation policy they've been implementing since the early 2000s



#18 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:23

I would be surprised to see that happen.  It flies in the face of the entire engine conservation policy they've been implementing since the early 2000s

 

But  they are already using that many. Just getting penalties doing it.



#19 shure

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:40

But  they are already using that many. Just getting penalties doing it.

Agreed.  They should increase the penalties, as at the moment the teams are using it as a strategic option and that's not the intent.  Last year was a farce in that regard and this year more teams appear to be doing it.  They should only be allowed to exceed the allowance by showing the old unit has a problem and handing it to the FIA for verification in exchange for their replacement.  I'll bet the number of new engines would magically reduce overnight



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#20 Red5ive

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:50

No - but there is a lot more wrong with this penalty system than just that.

 

F1 once again descending into a farce for the 2nd race in a row with nearly half the grid with penalties - meanwhile they interview 2 drivers who wont be starting 2nd and 3rd.....



#21 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:55

Agreed.  They should increase the penalties, as at the moment the teams are using it as a strategic option and that's not the intent.  Last year was a farce in that regard and this year more teams appear to be doing it.  They should only be allowed to exceed the allowance by showing the old unit has a problem and handing it to the FIA for verification in exchange for their replacement.  I'll bet the number of new engines would magically reduce overnight

 

Maybe a PU component can only be replaced after it fails in a race!



#22 w1Y

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 15:56

I want to see time penalties for new parts or points. Time penalties would be a real punishment and maybe add some spice to the race.

Have to be taken at first put stop.

Edited by w1Y, 10 September 2022 - 15:57.


#23 PlatenGlass

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 16:36

Then the top teams will just throw engines at the car as long as they keep within the budget cap. As it doesn't matter for Ferrari, Red Bull etc. if they are 1st or 4th in the WCC. However it matters very much if they are 1st or 2nd in the WDC.

 

With a budget cap, I don't see the need for limiting engine parts and having penalties any more. The problem of the ridiculous number of grid penalties should go away.



#24 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 16:38

With a budget cap, I don't see the need for limiting engine parts and having penalties any more. The problem of the ridiculous number of grid penalties should go away.

 

Agreed.



#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 16:39

How does a budget cap apply to engine manufacturers? How does it work when they don't all supply an equal amount of teams. How does it work when some manufacturers have factory owned teams and some just supply engines on a factory basis(Mercedes vs Honda in 2021).


Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 10 September 2022 - 16:39.


#26 Clatter

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 16:43

I want to see time penalties for new parts or points. Time penalties would be a real punishment and maybe add some spice to the race.

Have to be taken at first put stop.

 


Only if it's a meaningful time penalty, and not the 5 second penalty they seem to hand out for most things.

#27 Anderis

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 16:55

I think car penalties should be a points deduction.

This is impossible to balance.

 

A small points deduction will not matter for teams who score a lot of points, a big points deduction would influence the standings too much between teams with few points (it would be literally more important than their race performances). You can also try to deduct a % of points but it doesn't work either because it's ridiculous to take, for example 5% of 6 points, it doesn't matter for teams with few points at all, and you make the percentage too big, then it becomes a farce for the frontrunners.



#28 Wuzak

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 17:01

How does a budget cap apply to engine manufacturers? How does it work when they don't all supply an equal amount of teams. How does it work when some manufacturers have factory owned teams and some just supply engines on a factory basis(Mercedes vs Honda in 2021).

 

The PU supply affects the budget. If the team uses extra PUs then it hits the budget bottom line.

 

But it appears that teams already have 5+ PUs accounted for in their budgets.



#29 ARTGP

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 17:33

This is impossible to balance.

 

A small points deduction will not matter for teams who score a lot of points, a big points deduction would influence the standings too much between teams with few points (it would be literally more important than their race performances). You can also try to deduct a % of points but it doesn't work either because it's ridiculous to take, for example 5% of 6 points, it doesn't matter for teams with few points at all, and you make the percentage too big, then it becomes a farce for the frontrunners.

 

Great point especially since the customer teams are not in control of the reliability of their PU. I wanted to say "no penalties for customer team reliability issues", but knowing F1, the small teams would game that system to their advantage. 


Edited by ARTGP, 10 September 2022 - 17:34.


#30 ARTGP

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 17:56

The PU limit should be increased to 5.

FIA have included no provisions for accidents,
especially those caused by someone else, in the current regulation. That’s why I think it should be 5. A side effect of the number of PUs increasing to 5 is that grid penalties will go back to being a rare occurrence whereby the asinine implementation of the penalties and the mania surrounding them will no longer be in the spotlight.

Edited by ARTGP, 10 September 2022 - 17:57.


#31 MKSixer

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 22:07

For team, driver or both?

Car penalties should be taken from the WCC.

Driver penalties should be taken from the WDC or time/grid penalties.



#32 chrcol

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 22:38

I think penalties need to rollover, but also I think more engine parts need to be allowed, its clear the sport has set them too low. Has every team took an engine penalty now this season and pretty much most recent seasons?


Edited by chrcol, 10 September 2022 - 22:39.


#33 chrcol

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 22:39

The PU limit should be increased to 5.

FIA have included no provisions for accidents,
especially those caused by someone else, in the current regulation. That’s why I think it should be 5. A side effect of the number of PUs increasing to 5 is that grid penalties will go back to being a rare occurrence whereby the asinine implementation of the penalties and the mania surrounding them will no longer be in the spotlight.

Ironically I suspect this might be why they so strict on the allotment, the same reason we have too many SC's artificial excitement.



#34 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 23:05

Car penalties should be taken from the WCC.

Driver penalties should be taken from the WDC or time/grid penalties.

 

So. Again. Advantage Red Bull, Ferrari and other teams that don't really care much about WCC as long as they can get WDC.



#35 cbo

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 08:00

Change of PU is an automatic DNF. So you can change all you want, it will just cost you a race.

And then engine life will magically increase....

#36 RedRabbit

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 08:30

They went the wrong way, by an allowance for the season that can be used at any time, and they changed it for gearboxes now too.

The engines should be aligned with gearboxes, and the rule should go back to each unit must be used for x number of races continuously, with a penalty free change if car DNFs.

The way it is now just looks stupid and makes no difference in the races.

Any penalties should also be a time penalty in the race, served at the first stop. Gird penalties are meaningless if they can't be applied equally to all cars.