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How should SC-situations near race-end be handled? [merged]


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#1 smr

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:38

We were robbed of an exciting finish today.

People pay good money for what is for many, a once a year trip to their home grand prix to see F1 cars in the flesh.

To end behind an SC takes the shine off of any race and really kills the atmosphere and race weekend.

So I say if the race is within 10 laps from the finish, a red flag is set.

It offers no disadvantage or difference to that of the SC being deployed yet provides the advantage of the race ending as, well, get this... a race.

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#2 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:39

Ok, we’ve had the second farcical ending to a race within 12 months. Looks like we all agree that something has to be done.

My suggestion:
No SC in the final 15% of the race. Either VSC or Red Flag.

What’s yours?

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 11 September 2022 - 14:39.


#3 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:39

Setting a formal procedure for something like this would be a good idea. Maybe 5 laps rather than 10.

 

However, the main takeaway from today is that the safety car itself must pick up the leader, not the third place driver.



#4 aray

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:39

I was thinking the same today !



#5 flingsofdeon

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:40

At the race now…fans not exactly happy.

Stopping the race to ensure an exciting finish makes a helluva lot more sense than having a finish to any sporting or entertainment event like that.

#6 P123

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:41

Not sure the ycould have gone green, so seemed common sense to finish behind the SC.  If they wanted to avoid that they should probably had red flagged with 3 laps to go.

 

The odd thing was firstly how long it took them to decided on a SC (similar to VSC earlier) and also where the SC came out as it took an age to pick up the leader.



#7 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:41

Agree. Maybe with a caveat that a race can finish under SC if it’s thrown with 1-2 laps remaining.

So that would be Red flag if 3-10 laps remaining (or something like that).

#8 Ruusperi

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:41

To quote myself: F1 is a sport. What's entertaining or not doesn't matter. If it's a boring SC finish, then it is. You don't red flag a race "for the show". Only if the situation warrants one (injured driver, barrier damaged).



#9 F1Frog

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:41

Finishing under the safety car today was the right decision. Red flags at the end create almost an entirely new race and make the previous 95% of the race considerably less important, particularly with standing starts after which have a huge effect on any race even at the start, but right at the end would be far too important. If we had rolling starts after red flags that would be better.



#10 Ali_G

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:42

I said this in the Abu Dhabi thread when the thread was just a newborn baby and I still think it now.

#11 AlexPrime

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:42

They made NASCAR rules like that with overtime and it is atrocious.  :stoned: You can't tweak SC rules everytime RBR wins such a situation  :p


Edited by AlexPrime, 11 September 2022 - 14:48.


#12 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:42

If you want a artificial end certainly the red flag makes more sense as at least everyone gets the chance to change tyres. It's probably the "best" compromise between a sportive finish and WWE.

Alas, it's not the first time that races finish behind the SC, so I dont really get the fuss here.



#13 NickeyF1

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:42

RED Flag, flying start. No changes to the car, tyres etc..



#14 SilverArrow31

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:45

Just finish under the SC... its not farcical, we simply ran out of laps. It happens...

I really don't understand the boos at the track nor the anger here. I guess the Ferrari fans would've booed a Verstappen victory either way.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 11 September 2022 - 14:47.


#15 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:46

I suppose the other question is why it takes 6(?) laps to secure a single car that's stopped by the side of the track and get everyone going again. That seems excessive.



#16 SparkPlug

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:48

That ending today at Monza was a complete mockery. We were robbed of a great finish today because the racing director didn’t have his head on in the right place. My view has always been that we should never end a race under the safety car, because it is inherently unfair to anyone that has a shot at gaining positions

#17 Myrvold

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:49

Why should one red flag, and have a new race start at the end of the race, just because it happens at the end of the race?

 

Creating a spectacle from nothing isn't great. People want this, until the favorite underdog loses a clear win from it.



#18 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:49

I'm all up for setting a rule that it's a red flag in the final 5 or 8 or 10 laps, but it needs to be a rule, not something that depends on what mood the race director is on. That way you keep sporting integrity, which is more important than having a fun finish for TV.

I would've preferred a red flag, but for the current rules they did the right call today.

Edited by noikeee, 11 September 2022 - 14:50.


#19 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:50

What is the absolute worst is when finishing under safety car disrupts strategies that are already in progress. This is why at the Indy 500, when there is usually a midfielder near the lead late in the race because they're off sequence, it makes sense to throw a red rather than gift them the win because of their anomalous strategy.

 

In this case Verstappen had beaten Leclerc fair and square and they were just counting off laps by the time Ricciardo's car broke down.

 

This isn't really a prescription for the future, except to indicate that there's no rule that will ensure justice in all cases because races are chaotic and unfair things happen.



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#20 alframsey

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:50

Just say something like a red flag and standing start when 15% or less of a race is left to run, seems to solve these silly and faraical endings.

#21 Ruusperi

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:51

I suppose the other question is why it takes 8(?) laps to secure a single car that's stopped by the side of the track. That seems excessive, it's almost one-sixth of the race distance.

In the past (pre-Biachi), a tractor would be on the scene within seconds when the incident happened. It's almost funny how the driver is still in the car, shocked or maybe shaken after a crash, when the marshals are already hooking up the car ready to be lifted away.

 

Now they can't even go the track until the SC has picked all cars. I still don't know why they couldn't use tractors under a VSC. It would make the recovering process so much quicker, and restarting would be a matter of a button press. Also, "lapped cars can overtake" -rule doesn't apply to VSC.



#22 Muppetmad

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:52

I just want some consistency. Find a solution, outline it clearly in the rules, and then stick to it.


Edited by Muppetmad, 11 September 2022 - 14:52.


#23 BobbyRicky

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:52

This is where i think NASCAR has got it right with the whole "Overtime"-rule.



#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:52

Alternatively, there’s what I suggested in another thread some time ago: Abolish the safety car. If a situation can’t be solved with a virtual safety car, throw a red flag. That way you don’t lose laps circulating behind it.



#25 Myrvold

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:53

Just say something like a red flag and standing start when 15% or less of a race is left to run, seems to solve these silly and faraical endings.

 

Then we suddenly have the Monaco situation a decade ago, where it was shaping up to be a quite interesting ending. It was red flagged, and due to new tyres all suspense just went away.

 

Also... the long restart procedures...



#26 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:53

I would've preferred a red flag, but for the current rules they did the right call today.

What is the rule about red flags currently?



#27 Myrvold

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:53

This is where i think NASCAR has got it right with the whole "Overtime"-rule.

 

Refueling...



#28 Ramon69

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:53

It's very anticlimatic to end the race under SC, but at least they were consistent with the rules!



#29 PlatenGlass

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:54

To quote myself: F1 is a sport. What's entertaining or not doesn't matter. If it's a boring SC finish, then it is. You don't red flag a race "for the show". Only if the situation warrants one (injured driver, barrier damaged).

This. They shouldn't make a difference just because it's near the end of the race.

They red flagged and did one lap at Baku last year and that just seemed a bit silly. Weirdly Red Bull pushed for it for the tyre change on safety grounds, risking Perez's win, when it seemed clear it would finish under the safety car anyway.

But that's an aside. Basically don't throw a red just to make an exciting finish.

#30 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:54

In the past (pre-Biachi), a tractor would be on the scene within seconds when the incident happened. It's almost funny how the driver is still in the car, shocked or maybe shaken after a crash, when the marshals are already hooking up the car ready to be lifted away.

 

Now they can't even go the track until the SC has picked all cars. I still don't know why they couldn't use tractors under a VSC. It would make the recovering process so much quicker, and restarting would be a matter of a button press. Also, "lapped cars can overtake" -rule doesn't apply to VSC.

Ah, I see.

 

Sounds like we might be stuck with this until the FIA develops an orbital laser to vapourize cars that stop near the track.



#31 ANF

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:54

I always believed Michael Masi did the right thing in Abu Dhabi, because the alternative had been to finish the race behind the safety car which would have been a huge anticlimax – much, much worse than the finish we saw today.

I'm not here to debate that Abu Dhabi though, so I'll try to close this can of worms again.



#32 Myrvold

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:54

What is the rule about red flags currently?

If Competitors or officials are placed in immediate physical danger by cars running on the track, and the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot be negotiated safely, even behind the safety car, the sprint session or the race will be suspended.


#33 ColeTrickle44

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:55

Perfectly managed safety car, in line with the rules which delivered the correct result.

You can’t artificially make everything exciting.

Mr Masi should take note

#34 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:56

If Competitors or officials are placed in immediate physical danger by cars running on the track, and the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot be negotiated safely, even behind the safety car, the sprint session or the race will be suspended.

Aha. I guess it's the "even behind the safety car" that's the key. I'm sure red flags have been thrown in the past that don't fit that description though.

#35 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:56

If you want a artificial end certainly the red flag makes more sense as at least everyone gets the chance to change tyres. It's probably the "best" compromise between a sportive finish and WWE.

Alas, it's not the first time that races finish behind the SC, so I dont really get the fuss here.

It’s not that the race ends behind a SC per se that’s the farce. The main farce as I see it is that the rules effectively mandate several unnecessary laps behind the SC which robs us of a finish under green.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 11 September 2022 - 14:57.


#36 P123

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:56

If you want a artificial end certainly the red flag makes more sense as at least everyone gets the chance to change tyres. It's probably the "best" compromise between a sportive finish and WWE.

Alas, it's not the first time that races finish behind the SC, so I dont really get the fuss here.

 

Agreed. There are some things that can be polished, such as the time taken to make a decision on VSC or SC (it's not like they take a lap to decide whether to throw a yellow flag..) and also where the SC is released, as both of those looked a little amateurish today.  The time taken to clear a parked car also.  Do they consider 'what if a car parks up here'.  No space for a crane?  But they ran out of time, so least it can be said that whilst disappointing to see a race finish that way, it was at least honest.



#37 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:58

Just accept there can be a SC in the end.

1) stop the unlap business. The leader has put effort in passing them, the no 2 should as well. That saves 2 laps of SC.
2) no standing restarts. It is very unfair for everyone involved and very gimmicky.
3) the SC is for safety, not entertainment.
4) introduce fixed slow zone sections at the tracks so they can pass the incident with local yellows and race the rest of the lap.

#38 ANF

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:58

Anyway, the F1 safety car procedures and the retrieval of stricken cars are

  • too slow
  • inefficient
  • pretty stupid

 

Maybe I'll try to explain why later on.



#39 Risil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

Anyway, the F1 safety car procedures and the retrieval of stricken cars are

  • too slow
  • inefficient
  • pretty stupid

 

Maybe I'll try to explain why later on.

Looking forward to it! Monday's often a slow day at work.  ;)



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#40 noikeee

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

It’s not that the race ends behind a SC per se that’s the farce. The main farce as I see it is that the rules effectively mandate several unnecessary laps behind the SC which robs us of a finish under green.


If it's earlier in the race, it's still quicker than throwing a red flag, which is why they don't do PayAs' suggestion above to get rid of safety cars altogether and always throw red flags.

#41 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

Turn the lap counter off, if the race has under 10 laps to go?



#42 P123

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

I'm all up for setting a rule that it's a red flag in the final 5 or 8 or 10 laps, but it needs to be a rule, not something that depends on what mood the race director is on. That way you keep sporting integrity, which is more important than having a fun finish for TV.

I would've preferred a red flag, but for the current rules they did the right call today.

 

It should be entirely dependant on the situation, so I'm not in favour of a red flag rule.  What if there is another incident after the first red flag?  It could be a laughable amount of time to finish a few laps of a race where a brief SC would do.



#43 Jones Foyer

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

We were robbed of an exciting finish today.

Robbed! Oh the amazing hyperbole! No, Danny Ric nearly GIFTED you one, but were it not for his car failure, it would have been an unexciting finish with Max comfortably crossing the line under green. Forcing in rules changes to get a restart after removing his car would have been great for Ferrari but not something the pace of their car or strategy deserved.

Edited by Jones Foyer, 11 September 2022 - 15:01.


#44 Ruusperi

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 14:59

Just say something like a red flag and standing start when 15% or less of a race is left to run, seems to solve these silly and faraical endings.

What if there's a crash at the restart? Another red flag and another 30-45 minute waiting. Then another restart, and then someone stops and once again a red flag. It would take hours to just finish the last laps, and we would have timed races.

 

Like linked earlier, races ending under the SC are nothing out of ordinary. I don't recall fans becoming furious when it has happened before. Is it because the social media has made us easier to become upset and eager to complain? In the long run, SC endings happen quite rarely. Changing the rules would just cause bigger problems and unnecessary delays.

https://www.lightsou...the-safety-car/



#45 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:00

I always believed Michael Masi did the right thing in Abu Dhabi, because the alternative had been to finish the race behind the safety car which would have been a huge anticlimax – much, much worse than the finish we saw today.

I'm not here to debate that Abu Dhabi though, so I'll try to close this can of worms again.

 

Thems the rules, if it makes for an anti-climax then so be it...

 

But yes, this could be another AD race thread.



#46 Myrvold

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:00

If it's earlier in the race, it's still quicker than throwing a red flag, which is why they don't do PayAs' suggestion above to get rid of safety cars altogether and always throw red flags.

 

F1 should look at MotoGP and get a "quick restart procedure" in place.



#47 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:00

Turn the lap counter off, if the race has under 10 laps to go?

 

Fuel...



#48 geralt

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:00

As long as they follow the rules and don't make things up for the sake of the show, I'm good.



#49 BoDarvelle

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:00

I suppose the other question is why it takes 6(?) laps to secure a single car that's stopped by the side of the track and get everyone going again. That seems excessive.

 

Watching US series that is the thing that consistently stands out about F1 races. They are incredibly slow clearing the track and seem to be very indecisive about what to do when there is an incident.

 

I mean there was quite a delay between when I saw Ric dropping down the standings in race data and Sky showed him stopped. And there was even more time from then until they finally called a SC. Then the actual SC doesn't hit the track for 3 laps?

 

Just comes across as a clownshow whenever there is a problem on track.


Edited by BoDarvelle, 11 September 2022 - 15:02.


#50 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 15:01

F1 should look at MotoGP and get a "quick restart procedure" in place.

 

Pull Ricciardo out of his car, throw him through the marshal gap in the catch-fencing...and start waving a green flag as vigorously as possible.

 

20 secs, job done.   :D