309 replies to this topic

[Primo]

We do not need to talk about Ricciardo anymore, but Perez performance is quickly moving towards unacceptable. What is happening there? According to an Autosport article, the lighter RBR can now use ballast and move its behavior towards Verstappens preference - a very responsive front end and a rear that does whatever it needs to do. But surely ballast can be placed anywhere? Some place where it make the rear, and Sergio, less nervous?

More or less the same things have been said about Verstappens previous team mates, that they cannot drive the RBR as Max does, but surely there must be more drivers that like a responsive car? Kimi liked a distinct front end and so is, I believe, Lewis. Alonso on the other hand, seemed to love understeer during the Renault years. 

If the car must to be driven like Max does it, how come RBR put drivers in it who's natural style requires a different concept?

Sergio has a two year contract, but it seems to me that it will be difficult for him to keep that seat. Who can replace him? Lando? 

Maybe I am counting him out too early, but last season was very similar - a few flashes of brilliance but more often very far from Max's pace. I was surprised he got that contract extension, but I will be more surprised if he will do the time. 

[danmills]

Red Bull leading the constructors by a big margin.

Same reason Bottas stayed at Mercedes.

It works. You can't get higher than P1.

Case closed really.

 

Unless that gap dramatically declines then they can worry. Max has it covered. Perez doesn't need to be P2 every race, Max is on another level.

 

Perez has dropped in form since that contract was signed, he was exceptional at the start of the year. But historically hes been a bit better at the season bookends, has he not?

 

Next few races should be more solid. 

Edited by danmills, 14 September 2022 - 20:20.

[Primo]

Red Bull leading the constructors by a big margin.

Same reason Bottas stayed at Mercedes.

It works. You can't get higher than P1.

Case closed really.

That was different. Bottas and Lewis was always very close in Q and for 4 years, a Merc 1-2 was almost given. There was never a reason for Toto to look elsewhere.

[ARTGP]

It's quite simple really:

 

 

 

 Asked if there are different wishes compared to Verstappen, Perez said: "Yes, there are some differences. For example, I like to have a more stable rear compared to Max, especially in medium-speed and high-speed corners. That gives me a little more feeling in the car and I like that better. It is also an aspect that we are currently working behind the scenes."

Perez: "Need more stable rear of car than Verstappen" (motorsport.com)

 

 

In the beginning of the season, the Red Bull was overweight and understeery which is what Perez liked balance wise. 

 

Pierre Wache (RB Technical Director):

 

 

Q: Now for all of Max's recent success, Checo’s having a harder time of it. Is there a technical reason why his pace seems to have dropped a little bit?

 

PW: I think it is multiple factors but the main factor is clearly the car balance and the confidence with a car, compared to the beginning of the year when the car was a little bit more balanced for him and a little bit less for Max. And after the potential of development we put on the car during the season move away from that, is maybe part of it. And after, finding a right set-up for him, it is quite difficult, to put him as confident as he could be to beat, or to fight with Max.

https://www.fia.com/...ence-transcript

Edited by ARTGP, 14 September 2022 - 20:24.

[eibyyz]

We Ussians have a term for it:  "Contract Year". 

 

The type example is Kirk Ferentz, the coach of the Iowa Hawkeyes gridiron football team.  

 

The first few years of his contract, he goes 6-6, 7-5, maybe gets to a postseason bowl game.  The fans and alumni grumble.  The last year of his contract, he goes 11-1, plays in the conference championship, gets in a New Year's bowl game, gets a massive contract for the next five years.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

[pacificquay]

Nothing to do with contracts, he just has a much narrower window of operation than Max, and developing the car to be faster has moved it further away from his range.

 

He is now doing no better than Albon at the same stage, which shows us Alex is underrated and Sergio overrated.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I mean…he’s battling it out for 2nd in the WDC with only 6 races left. Sure his performances have dipped though.

 

He’s doing a perfect job for Redbull, helping to win the constructors while not troubling Max at all. That’s all they need.

[ensign14]

Also Red Bull have made Perez' car worse for "costs" reasons.

[flyboym3]

Qualifying has never been his strong point. He always came across as a 1 trick pony which was getting really long tyre life out of pirelli cheese tyre era.

He was never fast enough, I suspect that's why McLaren booted him out after only 12months too.

[ARTGP]

Also Red Bull have made Perez' car worse for "costs" reasons.

 

Perez crashed his car 3 times this season by largely his own doing (Monaco qualy, Canada qualy, Austria). So if "cost" are an issue, he brought it on himself don't you think?   People were ready to lynch RB when Vettel got that front wing that Webber didn't even want after Vettel damaged his. Now we conveniently gloss over all the damage that Perez did to RB's pockets to claim they aren't giving him parts deliberately...

Edited by ARTGP, 14 September 2022 - 20:35.

[lewislorenzo]

Perez can’t adapt unfortunately and is getting exposed.

RB rightfully focus on Max.

The 2nd RB has been pretty irrelevant for a while.

[Bliman]

The car is more developed to Max his liking now. He already said before he didn't like where the development was going.

[flyboym3]

I mean…he’s battling it out for 2nd in the WDC with only 6 races left. Sure his performances have dipped though.

He’s doing a perfect job for Redbull, helping to win the constructors while not troubling Max at all. That’s all they need.

Yeah the setup reminds of the way Schumacher went racing too with lapdog teammates (rosberg withstanding).
Plenty of better talent has been available but they don't want it.

[Primo]

Also Red Bull have made Perez' car worse for "costs" reasons.

That's an interesting take. "Perez runs the latest specs on his car" is equally true. 

[Sterzo]

What follows is theory rather than fact, but here goes:

 

1. The fastest cars have all 4 tyres breaking away simultaneously. If one end or the other goes first, it's because that end has sub-optimal grip and it won't be the fastest possible car.

2. Front end breakaway is easier to cope with. The car understeers and scrubs off speed, and you can feel it going.

3. Rear-end breakaway is much harder to cope with, especially on modern high-grip tyres. Once it goes, it goes, so you get very little warning.

 

An outstanding driver can deal with the nervousness of rear-end breakaway. A good but not great driver will do less well with a car equally likely to break away at the front or rear. To cater for him, you need to sacrifice some grip so it understeers.

 

The Red Bull is a fast bitch. Verstappen has no problem, Perez is good but can't extract its maximum.

Edited by Sterzo, 14 September 2022 - 20:41.

[Primo]

What follows is theory rather than fact, but here goes:

 

1. The fastest cars have all 4 tyres breaking away simultaneously. If one end or the other goes first, it's because that end has sub-optimal grip and it won't be the fastest possible car.

2. Front end breakaway is easier to cope with. The car understeers and scrubs off speed, and you can feel it going.

3. Rear-end breakaway is much harder to cope with, especially on modern high-grip tyres. Once it goes, it goes, so you get very little warning.

 

An outstanding driver can deal with the nervousness of rear-end breakaway. A good but not great driver will do less well with a car equally likely to break away at the front or rear. To cater for him, you need to sacrifice some grip so it understeers.

 

The Red Bull is a fast bitch. Verstappen has no problem, Perez is good but can't extract its maximum.

Yes, and that cannot be used as a defense for Perez, it is just indicators/proof that he is not the right driver for RBR.

[crgboy007]

Also Red Bull have made Perez' car worse for "costs" reasons.

 

Max won France with this same floor, while Perez was nowhere in that race. It's not an excuse for Perez's poor performances. 

[Tenmantaylor]

You can't change centre of mass without needing to change centre of downforce. Car balance has to be wholistic. Perez losing the rear at Zandvoort in Q and being way off in the race would suggest the car isn't balanced for him.

Also Max looking far superior and actually starting to dominate the Ferraris suggest the car is indeed now more to his liking tha
earlier in the season.

[Tenmantaylor]

Max won France with this same floor, while Perez was nowhere in that race. It's not an excuse for Perez's poor performances.

Max won but Charles was faster all weekend, his mistake helped Max win. Max is way ahead now.

[aportinga]

That was different. Bottas and Lewis was always very close in Q and for 4 years, a Merc 1-2 was almost given. There was never a reason for Toto to look elsewhere.

 

I agree - Perez could be swaped with DeVries and you may get more performance.

 

How about a public shootout between Perex, Albon, DeVries, Herta, Newgarden & Schumacher?

[aportinga]

I mean…he’s battling it out for 2nd in the WDC with only 6 races left. Sure his performances have dipped though.

 

He’s doing a perfect job for Redbull, helping to win the constructors while not troubling Max at all. That’s all they need.

 

I don't necessarily agree. I think he has not positioned himself in race trim to really help the team but collect a few points. Certainly Russell, Sainz and many other #2 drivers are more supportive (less Latifi and Ricciardo) IMO.

[crgboy007]

Max won but Charles was faster all weekend, his mistake helped Max win. Max is way ahead now.

 

Max is way ahead by... reverting back to the floor he was using prior Silverstone. Right. The different floor is not the cause of the huge gap between them. Whatever upgrade they brought to lose weight shifted the car's balance, and Perez cannot get a hold of it. 

Edited by crgboy007, 14 September 2022 - 21:09.

[flyboym3]

I agree - Perez could be swaped with DeVries and you may get more performance.

How about a public shootout between Perex, Albon, DeVries, Herta, Newgarden & Schumacher?

Such low aspiration.

Alonso, vettel, ricciardo, norris or anyone tier A would accept that seat.

[BoDarvelle]

We Ussians have a term for it:  "Contract Year". 

 

The type example is Kirk Ferentz, the coach of the Iowa Hawkeyes gridiron football team.  

 

The first few years of his contract, he goes 6-6, 7-5, maybe gets to a postseason bowl game.  The fans and alumni grumble.  The last year of his contract, he goes 11-1, plays in the conference championship, gets in a New Year's bowl game, gets a massive contract for the next five years.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Signed a long term extension.

 

They suck this year. 

 

*So do my Badgers it appears even though Mertz is throwing much better.

[BoDarvelle]

I forget who it was, but there was an article recently talking about this and a former driver said champions like pointy cars. Field fillers like understeer. 

 

Basically threw Perez under the bus.

[rmac923]

Honestly, I think Perez is performing as expected. He's never going to get priority (like Webber/Ricciardo/Gasly/Albon) and he's not unacceptably off the pace like the latter two. He is in the hunt to finish 2nd in the driver's championship!

 

Verstappen is this generation's top driver in the best car. Like Hamilton/Vettel/Schumacher/Senna before him. No one's going to touch him unless they have a vastly superior car.

[Bliman]

I forget who it was, but there was an article recently talking about this and a former driver said champions like pointy cars. Field fillers like understeer. 

 

Basically threw Perez under the bus.

I thought Alonso likes understeery cars.

[Primo]

Honestly, I think Perez is performing as expected. He's never going to get priority (like Webber/Ricciardo/Gasly/Albon) and he's not unacceptably off the pace like the latter two. He is in the hunt to finish 2nd in the driver's championship!

 

Verstappen is this generation's top driver in the best car. Like Hamilton/Vettel/Schumacher/Senna before him. No one's going to touch him unless they have a vastly superior car.

For this season I guess it does not really matter, RBR does not really need him, but I don't think they can count on this kind of dominance next year. Priority or not, he too far away from what the car can do.

[George Costanza]

Max is on a different level as Michael Schumacher was when it comes to it. It's very simple.

[George Costanza]

I forget who it was, but there was an article recently talking about this and a former driver said champions like pointy cars. Field fillers like understeer.

Basically threw Perez under the bus.

Well, that particular driver is pretty much correct.

Edited by George Costanza, 14 September 2022 - 23:26.

[Primo]

I thought Alonso likes understeery cars.

I don't know if he likes understeery cars or if he was just very good at handling the Renault that had inherent understeer because of its weight distribution. It must also be noted that the driving style itself is a factor - a car that understeer for one driver can oversteer for another. And that the car itself might wanna understeer in one corner and oversteer in the next. In general, I do not think drivers think so much in over vs understeer, they just want the car to be predictable and obedient. That is the dilemma, a very understeery car is not very obedient.

[HeadFirst]

We Ussians have a term for it:  "Contract Year". 

 

The type example is Kirk Ferentz, the coach of the Iowa Hawkeyes gridiron football team.  

 

The first few years of his contract, he goes 6-6, 7-5, maybe gets to a postseason bowl game.  The fans and alumni grumble.  The last year of his contract, he goes 11-1, plays in the conference championship, gets in a New Year's bowl game, gets a massive contract for the next five years.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Well Kirk's Hawkeyes lost to the Cyclones this year, so that might be the end of his 22 year tenancy. As for Perez ..... there is no way Checo has anywhere near the talent of Verstappen, but I am puzzled as to why the design team responsible for the car of the century can't modify the design to make the #2 car more suitable for it's driver. 

[William Hunt]

Perez can’t adapt unfortunately and is getting exposed.

RB rightfully focus on Max.

The 2nd RB has been pretty irrelevant for a while.

 

It's not about adapting: ANY driver will have a more difficult time when a car is developed not in their favour: meaning according to their driving style.
Teams always develop their cars in favour of the first driver hence why you always see the gap increase between the 1st & 2nd driver whilst that 2nd driver was able to match the 1st driver early in the season
It's a classic scenario that you see all the time in F1 and it's because one driver is favoured over the other, nothing to do with adapting.

Edited by William Hunt, 15 September 2022 - 00:24.

[Joe Bosworth]

What follows is theory rather than fact, but here goes:

 

Sterzo back in #15 states,

"1. The fastest cars have all 4 tyres breaking away simultaneously. If one end or the other goes first, it's because that end has sub-optimal grip and it won't be the fastest possible car.

2. Front end breakaway is easier to cope with. The car understeers and scrubs off speed, and you can feel it going.

3. Rear-end breakaway is much harder to cope with, especially on modern high-grip tyres. Once it goes, it goes, so you get very little warning.

 

An outstanding driver can deal with the nervousness of rear-end breakaway. A good but not great driver will do less well with a car equally likely to break away at the front or rear. To cater for him, you need to sacrifice some grip so it understeers.

 

The Red Bull is a fast bitch. Verstappen has no problem, Perez is good but can't extract its maximum."

 

I suggest (with a long background in such), that stated proposition 1 is very much in error which leads to 2 and 3 and the rest of his beliefs are also in  error..

 

The ability to extract the fastest lap time is very much determined by how the driver sets up corners for best time between coming off the brake and applying max power.  This is determined by optimising between early and late corner apex points.  Ability to set different apex points is affected by such  things such as yaw and engine torque through the corner but particularly when transitioning and  instigating max throttle.

 

There are very few corners where it is best for all four wheels to "break away simultaneously". 

 

Regards 

 

[Cacarella]

Ricciardo was more problematic because he was being paid the salary of a lead driver. Perez is only slightly worse than what's expected of him.

[mclarensmps]

I think Perez is getting distracted by the same things that he was being accused of in his first year at McLaren. I think it's partially an attitude thing, but having a teammate like Verstappen makes it even worse, because there's just such a massive gap in ability. 

[MattPete]

Weight distribution is pretty 

 

I don't know if he likes understeery cars or if he was just very good at handling the Renault that had inherent understeer because of its weight distribution.

 

Weight distribution is pretty much set by the rules these days as 45/55 F/R.

[tpgF1]

Well Kirk's Hawkeyes lost to the Cyclones this year, so that might be the end of his 22 year tenancy. As for Perez ..... there is no way Checo has anywhere near the talent of Verstappen, but I am puzzled as to why the design team responsible for the car of the century can't modify the design to make the #2 car more suitable for it's driver. 

From my understanding the RB is fast because it's being developed to be "pointy" as Max likes it, but changing to a more neutral balance for Checo means it won't be as fast for him anyway.

[ARTGP]

It's not about adapting: ANY driver will have a more difficult time when a car is developed not in their favour: meaning according to their driving style.

 

When the car suited Perez at the beginning of the season, his own words, he was close in qualifying, but miles behind in the races. 

When the car suited Max, Perez is absolutely nowhere.

 

So when do the excuses end? Max adapted to the lazy car at the beginning of the season and was still beating Perez in the races by miles. Now it's Perez's turn to adapt. 

[SKL]

As a life long hawkeye, you had to bring up the game last weekend??????  

 

 

If Checo doesn't pick it up, I wonder what kind of exit clauses RB have in his extension?  They seem to be pretty good at getting rid of drivers who don't cut it...

[baddog]

Perez is an okay but not great driver. He had a patch of form this year and had a short period last year where be played a team support role superbly, but he just isn't that good and it shows over time.

[Ragamuffin]

It's not a Perez issue. You're expecting too much from a driver that was never the driver you want him to be in that role. There just aren't that many top of the second tier drivers in F1 now, in that Berger fashion, consistently keeping the Maxs of this world honest. Ricciardo was one. Sainz is close, 'Ol Russ and Lando straddle the gap between the level above. Everyone else is found wanting in some way.

[Dhillon]

That was different. Bottas and Lewis was always very close in Q and for 4 years, a Merc 1-2 was almost given. There was never a reason for Toto to look elsewhere.

In 2018 Bottas was 5th in championship and almost half the points to Lewis. The dominant years of Mercedes made Bottas look good.

Perez is doing much better.

Edited by Dhillon, 15 September 2022 - 04:02.

[warp]

 

If Checo doesn't pick it up, I wonder what kind of exit clauses RB have in his extension?  They seem to be pretty good at getting rid of drivers who don't cut it...

 

Pure speculation but I don't think his actual contract is worth much and he should know it. Helmut Marko doesn't strike me like the kind of person that will hold to a driver just because a contract is in place, so surely there are exit clauses in it or they may even be willing to pay him out before sticking with checo if he doesn't pick up the pace.

[lewislorenzo]

It's not about adapting: ANY driver will have a more difficult time when a car is developed not in their favour: meaning according to their driving style.
Teams always develop their cars in favour of the first driver hence why you always see the gap increase between the 1st & 2nd driver whilst that 2nd driver was able to match the 1st driver early in the season
It's a classic scenario that you see all the time in F1 and it's because one driver is favoured over the other, nothing to do with adapting.

You’re telling me that Max or Lewis or MSC wouldn’t be able to adapt in this situation? ARTGP summed it up nicely

In 2018 Bottas was 5th in championship and almost half the points to Lewis. The dominant years of Mercedes made Bottas look good.

Perez is doing much better.

To say he’s doing much better is pretty wide of the mark. Most teams on the grid would still take Bottas over Checo I believe. He’s so far off the pace now

Edited by lewislorenzo, 15 September 2022 - 05:35.

[Sebastien007]

It is clear that with the cost problems that the teams are facing this year, all the new updates are only on Max Verstappen car, so Redbull can have twice more updates on max's car than the others and the first victim is Sergio Perez. You don't have to search any longer than that.

[Laptom]

The car is more developed to Max his liking now. He already said before he didn't like where the development was going.

He didn't liked the weight reduction?

[Mechanic44]

Would help if he had the same upgrades and parts as his teammate and help developing the car towards his liking.

He is a clear number 2 driver and going against Max he isn’t ever going to win no matter how many upgrades he gets but it would help him fight at the front more.

He will probably finish P2 in the standings so I think that shows just how dominant the car is, last year he was awful aswell but the car allowed him to finish high up and nearly help Redbull get the constructors, so he hasn’t been a disaster he just not performed as everyone thought.

I really don’t know what Sergio wants from the rest of his career but winning a world championship is the goal and he isn’t gonna do that against one of the very best and Redbull are never going to favour him because he hasn’t got that special something like Max, Lewis and Charles.

[MikeTekRacing]

There is a myth that all fast drivers like pointy cars
Vettel wanted a very stable rear end (EBD was perfect)
Lewis prefers a bit of understeer
The Renaults in which Alonso won were massively understeery at corner entry


Max is in a different league and has a car that suits him. Red Bull have no interest or resources to develop Checo’s car more to his preferences (I am sure they are trying what they can spare)

[Laptom]

It's not about adapting: ANY driver will have a more difficult time when a car is developed not in their favour: meaning according to their driving style.
Teams always develop their cars in favour of the first driver hence why you always see the gap increase between the 1st & 2nd driver whilst that 2nd driver was able to match the 1st driver early in the season
It's a classic scenario that you see all the time in F1 and it's because one driver is favoured over the other, nothing to do with adapting.

Once again, I don't believe they are developing a car to a certain driver. They just develop the car for being as fast as possible. Expecially after a rule change like this year.
Do you think Merc developed the car specifically for Lewis with your logic? If so, why was Bottas always so close in Qualifying?

The difference between the riders need to com with the setup of the car and how small tweaks will be addressed.

Do you think if they will go to the Australian spec RB, Perez will be as close to Max as in the beginning of the year? No, Max now knows how he likes the setup of the car and can deal with the characteristics of the car. It very well may be that the car is still not to the liking of Max, but he deals with it.

Edited by Laptom, 15 September 2022 - 06:30.