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Race engineer's input too much?


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#1 ThrottleBlib

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 19:17

Watching (predominantly listening) to Onboards Live on F1TV (I'm not sponsored) do you think engineers telling drivers where to make up time and manage is a bit too much? 

Certain drivers asking 'Sectors?" and his engineer replying "mid corner turn 3, apex turn 8, exit turn 33" 

"Manage your tires entry turn 6", "Don't short shift turn 11", "use diff high-speed turn 0"

 

Is it a bit too much? Should it be restricted?.. Engineers can't give feedback during formation lap regarding temps, for instance.

 

 



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#2 pacificquay

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 19:38

There are too many adjustments available in car 



#3 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 19:40

There are too many adjustments available in car 

 

There should be zero communication from the pits to the driver, and zero telemetry from car to pits.



#4 Augurk

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 19:54

Not this again. We've had awkward years where it was penalized (or not..) leading to very unclear situations.

 

It's a team sport. This type of communication is part of that.



#5 ARTGP

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:03

Personally, I don't like it as I think removing the coaching just adds another level of difficulty which would allow drivers to be slightly more of a performance differentiator even though the car often so overwhemingly decides who wins championships and who just makes up the numbers.

 

With that said, coaching has been normalized in so many other sports that I've watched and I never had an issue so I guess I don't really have any grounds to suddenly be offended by it here. Carry on. 


Edited by ARTGP, 20 September 2022 - 20:04.


#6 ThrottleBlib

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:06

Who's driving?



#7 ARTGP

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:07

Who's driving?

 

It's without doubt the driver. Even when coached, he still has the steering wheel in his finger tips. Coaching doesn't always work either. Otherwise Ricciardo might not have lost his Mclaren seat. 



#8 Sterzo

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:10

Sterzo's First Rule About Rules is: Don't have unnecessary rules.

 

If you can identify a real problem that you absolutely must address, then define it precisely and ensure you write rules which are clear, watertight and without loopholes. Preferring the way things were is rarely a good starting point for new rules.



#9 ThrottleBlib

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:16

Now I want to know more about Sterzo's 2nd to 4th rules. 

Rules regarding safety we can all agree on, rules regarding aiding a driver where to win time or manage the tires is somewhat different, imo.. Though the Ricc example is on point.



#10 Clatter

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:45

Not this again. We've had awkward years where it was penalized (or not..) leading to very unclear situations.

 

It's a team sport. This type of communication is part of that.

 


Although the rules do say the driver has to drive the car unaided. If the FIA had not caved, then the teams would have simplified things in the cockpit because they would have to.

#11 PlatenGlass

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:46

There are too many adjustments available in car 

Yes, you could place limits on what controls are available to a driver.



#12 Secretariat

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 20:48

Generally speaking, I do not have a problem with it. It is the natural evolution of optimization as the sporting and technical rules have evolved over the years. A possible con is that individuals in "mission control" or on the pit-wall are more publicly exposed to criticism and possible vitriol when things don't go right.



#13 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 20 September 2022 - 21:30

Now I want to know more about Sterzo's 2nd to 4th rules. 

Rules regarding safety we can all agree on, rules regarding aiding a driver where to win time or manage the tires is somewhat different, imo.. Though the Ricc example is on point.

 

Second rule
A rule must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First rule.
Third rule
A rule must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second rule.


#14 Sterzo

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 09:59

Now I want to know more about Sterzo's 2nd to 4th rules. .

Since Sterzo's First Rule About Rules is: Don't have unnecessary rules:

  • Second rule: No second rule.
  • Third rule: No third rule.
  • Fourth rule: No fourth rule.


#15 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 12:29

 

Since Sterzo's First Rule About Rules is: Don't have unnecessary rules:

  • Second rule: No second rule.
  • Third rule: No third rule.
  • Fourth rule: No fourth rule.

 

 

:up:

 

Reminds me of

 

First rule of the introvert club:

There is no introvert club

 

Introverts all think "Thank goodness"



#16 P123

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 13:05

Zero problem with it.  It's all part of the sport.  If a few words was all it took to go faster, then Perez would be as quick as Max.  But he isn't.


Edited by P123, 21 September 2022 - 13:05.


#17 Jon83

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 13:13

I'm always impressed at how much information these guys can take on and share at 200mph and how they can still drive a car whilst constantly making adjustments on their steering wheels, going into menus and sub-menus.

 

I'm sure it was Canada 2014 when I read something about Rosberg having to press a button 13 times down the back straight to stop his car from dying. Weirdly thought that was pretty impressive at the time.



#18 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 13:32

We've had it and worked out like sh*t. You'll get code language like 'Fernando is faster than you'

 

To driver: Car 97 is 10 seconds ahead.

Driver: knows he is 3% slower at turn 10 or something like that.



#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 15:12

I still think the best way to fix a lot of these problems is to ban telemetry. Allow data logging but the data must be downloaded via a physical connection in the pits.

This way the engineer will be able to work strategy with his driver, and keep them informed of gaps and traffic, and relay information about, for example, how his last set of tyres was doing at his last pit stop. They can analyse the data after each session, but during the session they’ll have no more than official timing and the voice radio to coach their drivers.

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#20 Beri

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 15:59

I loved it how Sir Lewis Hamilton was drowning at Baku in 2016 because of a wrong setting. And that the engineers were not allowed to tell him this.

To me this was exactly what the rules embodied; have drivers in full control of the car instead of the pitwall. And thus drivers should practice for these kinds of situations to be able to spot and fix this.

Sadly the Mercedes lobby was strong and the FIA changed the rules on this.

At least this is how I remembered it all. Could have been a tad different tho 😉

#21 AustinF1

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:05

Watching (predominantly listening) to Onboards Live on F1TV (I'm not sponsored) do you think engineers telling drivers where to make up time and manage is a bit too much? 

Certain drivers asking 'Sectors?" and his engineer replying "mid corner turn 3, apex turn 8, exit turn 33" 

"Manage your tires entry turn 6", "Don't short shift turn 11", "use diff high-speed turn 0"

 

Is it a bit too much? Should it be restricted?.. Engineers can't give feedback during formation lap regarding temps, for instance.

Yes.



#22 AncientLurker

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:07

Who's driving?

The team is. F1 is a constructors' competition, the drivers are just another part/tool of the team. Unless this changes, no need to ban radios or coaching.



#23 AncientLurker

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:10

I still think the best way to fix a lot of these problems is to ban telemetry. Allow data logging but the data must be downloaded via a physical connection in the pits.

This way the engineer will be able to work strategy with his driver, and keep them informed of gaps and traffic, and relay information about, for example, how his last set of tyres was doing at his last pit stop. They can analyse the data after each session, but during the session they’ll have no more than official timing and the voice radio to coach their drivers.

I like this in principal, but fear it would just lead to teams finding expensive secretive ways to collect telemetry from track side.



#24 AustinF1

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:12

I loved it how Sir Lewis Hamilton was drowning at Baku in 2016 because of a wrong setting. And that the engineers were not allowed to tell him this.

To me this was exactly what the rules embodied; have drivers in full control of the car instead of the pitwall. And thus drivers should practice for these kinds of situations to be able to spot and fix this.

Sadly the Mercedes lobby was strong and the FIA changed the rules on this.

At least this is how I remembered it all. Could have been a tad different tho 😉

:mad:



#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:18

I like this in principal, but fear it would just lead to teams finding expensive secretive ways to collect telemetry from track side.

They won’t be able to collect any telemetry if the car doesn’t have a transmitter. There are already similar technical regulations in place.



#26 Beri

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:20

The team is. F1 is a constructors' competition, the drivers are just another part/tool of the team. Unless this changes, no need to ban radios or coaching.


Since it's inception, F1 has been a drivers championship. The constructors importance came 8 years later.
To fans this is still the case. I'll bet you a tenner that half up here could name every champion till 1990 in a heart beat. But hardly anyone will remember the odd constructors title that Williams scored in 1994 whilst Schumacher won the drivers championship.

#27 AncientLurker

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:22

They won’t be able to collect any telemetry if the car doesn’t have a transmitter. There are already similar technical regulations in place.

Not transmitted from the car, but clever track side sensors and cameras is what I was imagining. Similar to how they listen to competitor engines and can estimate power and how hard they are running the engine. It would be another huge money-sink to gain small advantages, but they would do it.



#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:29

Not transmitted from the car, but clever track side sensors and cameras is what I was imagining. Similar to how they listen to competitor engines and can estimate power and how hard they are running the engine. It would be another huge money-sink to gain small advantages, but they would do it.

There’s only so much you could glean via those methods, and with the budget cap they wouldn’t even be worth it. You can’t measure important things like loads, pressures, most temperatures and ERS energy levels remotely anyway. Most importantly, you wouldn’t have a lap by lap throttle, brake, steering, speed trace that you could use to coach a driver about which corner they’re losing time in.



#29 Beamer

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 16:36

Its part of the game. Its part of a drivers skillset to take that in and do what's needed. We saw examples of latifi and mazepin simply not having enough mental capacity left to comply. Imho It was schumi mostly that got the whole steering weel buttons in another dimension as he did have all the room to do all that. And that in turn sparked the engineers to advise on those.

And thats ok

Edited by Beamer, 21 September 2022 - 16:36.


#30 MKSixer

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 17:27

 

Second rule
A rule must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First rule.
Third rule
A rule must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second rule.

 

Are we talking Drivers or Robots....

Wait wut?



#31 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 17:29

Are we talking Drivers or Robots....

Wait wut?

 

Automatons.



#32 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 17:41

Why not ban live telemetry? Or maybe restrict it to safety critical measurements only.

#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 19:19

Why not ban live telemetry? Or maybe restrict it to safety critical measurements only.

 

Safety critical stuff could set off a warning light in the car, and the driver would then know to return to the pits.