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End of the Mercedes era?


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#1 romaincrouton

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 22:18

8 WCC’s and virtual domination of the sport since 2014, is it over, will they be back? What’s the future for Merc?…. I miss Rosberg

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#2 Ragamuffin

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 23:35

 

So, yes.


Edited by Ragamuffin, 22 September 2022 - 04:43.


#3 K20a

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 23:59

They'll be back

#4 Gintonious

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 00:14

They'll be back


…they are still here, just not winning anymore 🤣

#5 RPM40

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 00:45

Its already over, I'd say it was actually over last year.

 

I'm sure they will continue to be a front running team, but I don't see them being the unbeatable dominant force in future, not least until the new engine regulations anyway



#6 Dhillon

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 02:50

Yes, the dominance is over. Even if they can get the car as fast as RB/Ferrari. Max and Charles will have the edge over Lewis, being younger and near peak.

#7 kumo7

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 06:51

But the RedBull Era is ending with the end of current PU reg. So new to start soon.



#8 lewislorenzo

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 06:59

Yes, the dominance is over. Even if they can get the car as fast as RB/Ferrari. Max and Charles will have the edge over Lewis, being younger and near peak.


Lewis is still as good as ever👍🏾

#9 player1s

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 07:33

Thats the funny thing about dominances in F1. They tend to end at some point. Ask McLaren. Ask Williams. Ask Ferrari. Ask Red Bull.

 

Sometimes they bounce back, sometimes they fall even further down the grid. Again, ask McLaren or ask Williams.



#10 CSF

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 07:44

The evil empire is merely resting. 



#11 RedRabbit

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 07:54

A lot of Mercedes "big brains" have left the team in the last couple of years, which is normally the reason for dominance ending.

#12 CSF

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 08:06

A lot of Mercedes "big brains" have left the team in the last couple of years, which is normally the reason for dominance ending.

 

 

Excuse me Toto is still there and I think we know he is the only reason Mercedes have been a success. 



#13 baddog

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 08:40

They just need a couple of good drivers and they will be back don't you worry.



#14 Mechanic44

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 08:59

Get rid of Toto
Stop letting your best talent spend time designing boats we all can’t be Adrian Newey.
Invest in a Michael Masi and get the team manager to become best friends.
George being Lewis’s teammate for a few years will set him up nicely for 2025 when they have a championship winning car again.

They will be back next year just not winning titles just yet.

#15 EightGear

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 09:40

Excuse me Toto is still there and I think we know he is the only reason Mercedes have been a success.


But he said 'big brains.'

Edited by EightGear, 22 September 2022 - 09:40.


#16 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 10:19

Yes, the dominance is over. Even if they can get the car as fast as RB/Ferrari. Max and Charles will have the edge over Lewis, being younger and near peak.

Lewis is still matching the young guns at his age.



#17 CSF

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 10:21

Lewis is still matching the young guns at his age.

 

If only there were many examples of 37 year old drivers still being able to drive at a high level at 37.

 

What a job Lewis is doing truly remarkable. 



#18 Goron3

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:25

The level at which Alonso is currently performing at makes me think that Lewis can easily deliver for another 4-5 years if he wants to. I expect to see him in another 2-3 title fights.

#19 jjcale

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:26

I'd only like to see SLH get his 8th (official) WDC ... after that I'd be content to see Brackley return to the back of the grid .... the people there who are genuinely good can move on and the detritus left by the collapse can remain in a lower team - where they belong.  



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#20 jjcale

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:29

The level at which Alonso is currently performing at makes me think that Lewis can easily deliver for another 4-5 years if he wants to. I expect to see him in another 2-3 title fights.

 

Is he really doing that well? ... he is holding his own against proven midfield level driver ... which is good ... but I dont want to see LH sink that level. .... I prefer to see him retire if he cant run at the sharp end anymore - either because of the car or himself.



#21 messy

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:30

The level at which Alonso is currently performing at makes me think that Lewis can easily deliver for another 4-5 years if he wants to. I expect to see him in another 2-3 title fights.


What they have in common is that they’re neither of them settled with kids etc, and both still fully committed to making all the sacrifices to stay competitive which is maybe the unusual thing in drivers their age, rather than any physical decline.

#22 Bartonz20let

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:35

Mercedes haven't dominated for 5 years.

#23 Primo

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:46

There's been a lot of brain-drain from Mercedes, so I guess it depends how much Mercedes want to put into it, given that it is basically Toto's team. I would not be surprised if we see a re-branding in the next few years.



#24 Rumblestrip

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:53

I'd only like to see SLH get his 8th (official) WDC ... after that I'd be content to see Brackley return to the back of the grid .... the people there who are genuinely good can move on and the detritus left by the collapse can remain in a lower team - where they belong.  

 

I'm assuming you're not a Mercedes fan then....?



#25 RedRabbit

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:56

There's been a lot of brain-drain from Mercedes, so I guess it depends how much Mercedes want to put into it, given that it is basically Toto's team. I would not be surprised if we see a re-branding in the next few years.


With the amount of success they achieved, the appetite for a renewed large investment may not be there anymore, and an approach like Ferrari might be acceptable, as in, being part of the front runners, winning occasionally, is just fine and serves the purpose of keeping the team and brand in the headlines.

#26 J2NH

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:57

Mercedes isn't going anywhere,  They took a bold step with this years design and it hasn't worked out.  That doesn't mean this will be repeated next year.  I wouldn't write them off quite yet.



#27 Hank

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 13:02

I believe the dominance is over. With the budget cap they cannot get the car on par with Red Bull, which is miles ahead at this point and will only keep on improving. Plus them losing good people will not help their cause.

 

But it will be interesting to see how they approach this. Just be content with being 2nd/ 3rd best and grab an occasional victory until new regs happen? In that case they are better off with not resigning LH if he wants to stay past 2023. 



#28 RedRabbit

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 14:27

I believe the dominance is over. With the budget cap they cannot get the car on par with Red Bull, which is miles ahead at this point and will only keep on improving. Plus them losing good people will not help their cause.

But it will be interesting to see how they approach this. Just be content with being 2nd/ 3rd best and grab an occasional victory until new regs happen? In that case they are better off with not resigning LH if he wants to stay past 2023.


If 2023 is similar to this year, I don't see LH carrying on.

#29 messy

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 14:38

Mercedes haven't dominated for 5 years.


2020 was probably their most dominant season other than 2016, I think.

But yeah, ever since the start of 2017 they’ve generally had at least a challenger and that season was an outlier.

I think 2022 really needed to happen. What needs to happen now though is for them to get back in top of things so we don’t just substitute Merc domination for Red Bull domination season after season after season. Ferrari will keep tripping over themselves, Red Bull and Mercedes are the ones we need on top form to keep things interesting.

#30 F1matt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 14:48

They have lost key staff on a regular basis for the last couple of years, if a company is suffering a brain drain they are either not paying enough or people are not happy working there. Maybe MB are addressing this and bedding new staff in and may reap the benefits in the next couple of seasons. 



#31 noikeee

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:03

When Ferrari murdered everyone from 2000 to 2004, they had a very similar season in 2005.
 
... Then they were championship contenders in 2006, won both titles in 2007 (albeit the constructors only because McLaren were DQd) and the constructors in 2008.
 
Ultimately it was still the beginning of the decline but they weren't quite over just yet. I suspect Mercedes might be in a similar position here, caught with their pants down after a regs change but with everything still in place to bounce back to championship contention given the time to regroup.


#32 F1matt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:07

 

When Ferrari murdered everyone from 2000 to 2004, they had a very similar season in 2005.
 
... Then they were championship contenders in 2006, won both titles in 2007 (albeit the constructors only because McLaren were DQd) and the constructors in 2008.
 
Ultimately it was still the beginning of the decline but they weren't quite over just yet. I suspect Mercedes might be in a similar position here, caught with their pants down after a regs change but with everything still in place to bounce back to championship contention given the time to regroup.

 

 

 

Wasn't this more to do with the tyre war? If Ferrari were on Michelins Schumacher may have still dominated that season. 



#33 MKSixer

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:12

The Dominant Mercedes team may be gone but they will always be a team of excellence as long as they are in the sport.  The greater Daimler-Benz overlords won't allow the F1 team become a mid-field or back-or-the-grid team.  It would damage their brand.  

 

Success is a habit and not an event.  Mercedes will be back at the sharp end of the sharp end soon.  It's what they do.



#34 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:21

The Dominant Mercedes team may be gone but they will always be a team of excellence as long as they are in the sport. The greater Daimler-Benz overlords won't allow the F1 team become a mid-field or back-or-the-grid team. It would damage their brand.

Success is a habit and not an event. Mercedes will be back at the sharp end of the sharp end soon. It's what they do.


Change “Mercedes” to “Williams” and “ greater Daimler-Benz overlords” to “Frank Williams and Patrick Head” and this post could have been written in 1998.

#35 MKSixer

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:37

Change “Mercedes” to “Williams” and “ greater Daimler-Benz overlords” to “Frank Williams and Patrick Head” and this post could have been written in 1998.

With the exception of Williams being a private team and not backed by the might and power of the organization that actually invented the automobile and had a history of destroying the competition before they left motorsports after the LeMans tragedy.  Their re-entry into the sport was measured and very successfully phased.  Williams has never had the success that Mercedes had in F1.  It is highly unlikely that they ever will again.  Mercedes is a different story.



#36 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:51

With the exception of Williams being a private team and not backed by the might and power of the organization that actually invented the automobile and had a history of destroying the competition before they left motorsports after the LeMans tragedy.  Their re-entry into the sport was measured and very successfully phased.  Williams has never had the success that Mercedes had in F1.  It is highly unlikely that they ever will again.  Mercedes is a different story.

Given that only in 2020/21 did Mercedes overhaul Williams' major records, it really illustrates how remarkable the latter has been since they began.

 

To the topic at hand. Era over? Yes. Success over? Probably not, too much money and talent around for them to just fall away permanently.



#37 RedRabbit

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:53

Wasn't this more to do with the tyre war? If Ferrari were on Michelins Schumacher may have still dominated that season.


Yeah, 2005 was purely the change in tire regulations and Bridgestone dropping the ball. The F2005GA was an evolution of the all conquering F2004, with an even more powerful engine. It wasn't a case of Ferrari not getting their design right.

That car evolved into the 06 model and won races.

#38 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:57

With the exception of Williams being a private team and not backed by the might and power of the organization that actually invented the automobile and had a history of destroying the competition before they left motorsports after the LeMans tragedy. Their re-entry into the sport was measured and very successfully phased. Williams has never had the success that Mercedes had in F1. It is highly unlikely that they ever will again. Mercedes is a different story.


Missing the point spectacularly.

#39 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:03

Excuse me Toto is still there and I think we know he is the only reason Mercedes have been a success. 

nope

 

or is that /s?


Edited by Szoelloe, 22 September 2022 - 16:03.


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#40 gillesfan76

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:11

8 WCC’s and virtual domination of the sport since 2014, is it over, will they be back? What’s the future for Merc?…. I miss Rosberg

 

I guess it depends how you define “era”. In above, you’ve used the word domination and by that definition, clearly your definition of the era has ended this season. But in my opinion there wasn’t such an era, or at least there’s more context to simply looking at the fact of 8 WCCs. There were certainly seasons of domination. 2014 to 2016 was domination. 2017 and 2018 I think Ferrari had a genuine chance but both team and driver dropped it as the pressure piled. 2019 and 2020 Mercedes back to domination. 2021 obviously not.

 

But regardless of the semantics, I think yes this season is certainly the end to their consistently competitive seasons if we can agree to define their era as that. But even so, they’re still third best team. So wouldn’t surprise me if they came back strong next season or one after that.



#41 jacdaniel

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:18

The sooner they move on from Abu Dhabi and that thread dies on here, the entire team and fans will be better placed to move forward.

#42 Hank

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:20

The sooner they move on from Abu Dhabi and that thread dies on here, the entire team and fans will be better placed to move forward.

 

The car is not fast because the team is still thinking about AD. Sure!



#43 gillesfan76

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:26

The car is not fast because the team is still thinking about AD. Sure!

 

Oh it’s worse than that. Apparently the car is not fast because there’s an Abu Dhabi thread active on Autosport forums!  :stoned:  :lol:



#44 MKSixer

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:26

Missing the point spectacularly.

Your comparison was flawed.  



#45 dia6olo

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:30

Mercedes isn't going anywhere,  They took a bold step with this years design and it hasn't worked out.  That doesn't mean this will be repeated next year.  I wouldn't write them off quite yet.

Other past dominant teams will have done the same, Mercedes aren't special.



#46 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:43

Your comparison was flawed.  

You’re right, there’s one big difference. As an independent team, Williams have never quit, even when the going got tough. When Mercedes stop winning regularly they’ll quit, like any manufacturer does.



#47 Mechanic44

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:47

The sooner they move on from Abu Dhabi and that thread dies on here, the entire team and fans will be better placed to move forward.


We need to take a leaf out of Max’s and Christian’s book because they never talk about the last race or his championship. I mean last few days Christian has talked about how the title battle effected Max more than Lewis which is very odd considering the driving standards towards the end.

On a serious note I don’t think if last season has effected what happened this year they have just messed up which is even more annoying considering the whole “We can’t bring anymore upgrades this year to concentrate on 2022”

Lewis could have won his 8th but Mercedes will still be struggling to be in the fight again until at least 2024-25. Unless we get all the talent back Toto let go.

#48 Mechanic44

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:48

You’re right, there’s one big difference. As an independent team, Williams have never quit, even when the going got tough. When Mercedes stop winning regularly they’ll quit, like any manufacturer does.


Wow, you seriously think it Mercedes stop winning for the next couple of seasons say then they will walk away?

#49 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:52

Wow, you seriously think it Mercedes stop winning for the next couple of seasons say then they will walk away?

I wouldn’t be as specific as “the next couple of seasons”, but yes. It’s what all manufacturers do, time and time again.



#50 P123

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:59

You’re right, there’s one big difference. As an independent team, Williams have never quit, even when the going got tough. When Mercedes stop winning regularly they’ll quit, like any manufacturer does.

 

I think much less likely now given the popularity of F1 and the budget cap, meaning likely income generating for Merc as well as the the benefits in marketing.  Mercedes have been back since the early 90's and have had a longevity that puts all other manufacturers to shame since then, bar Ferrari.  I'm not sure they can be waved off as 'any manufacturer' when it comes to actual commitment to F1.