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From 1989 to 2023 and back


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#1 William Hunt

William Hunt
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Posted 21 September 2022 - 23:50

There has been a lot of discussion about the need of more teams and cars. Some, like me, are upset that talented drivers hardly can get in F1 while there are others (very few) though who claim it's good because there would be more Latifi's then (an argumented I countered in the Silly Season topic).

So let's just do an exercise here. In a parrallel universe F1 has decided to ban current cars and do the 2023 F1 championship with the 1989 F1 cars!
You have to fill up the field with current drivers. They can also be from IndyCar (Herta, O'Ward or Palou for example), WEC or Formula E but they have to be realistic choices so no Raikkönen or Vettel since they anounced retiring from F1 and no unrealistic choices like stopped drivers are old IndyCar drivers since that would be pretty unlikely.

 

In another parrallel universe you have to fill the current F1 field with drivers from the 1989 field so people would be confronted with agnoising choices who to give a seat and who not. I'm pretty sure people would then realise what F1 could look like today with 15 teams (and '89 had more as 15).

 

The field in 1989:   (T = Test driver)

 

1.    Ayrton  SENNA  (Bra)                McLaren  (-Honda)

2.    Alain  PROST  (Fra)                  McLaren  (-Honda)

T.    Jonathan  PALMER  (GB)         McLaren  (-Honda)

T.    Emanuele  PIRRO  (Ita)            McLaren  (-Honda)    (reserve driver)

 

3.    Jonathan  PALMER  (GB)       Tyrrell  (-Cosworth)

4.    Michele  ALBORETO  (Ita)        Tyrrell  (-Cosworth)

4.    Jean  ALESI  (Fra)                     Tyrrell  (-Cosworth)

4.    Johnny  HERBERT  (GB)          Tyrrell  (-Cosworth)    (replaced Alesi when he had to do F3000 races)

 

5.    Thierry  BOUTSEN  (Bel)          Williams  (-Renault)

6.    Riccardo  PATRESE  (Ita)         Williams  (-Renault)

R.    Mark  BLUNDELL  (GB)            Williams  (-Renault)    (reserve driver)

 

7.    Martin  BRUNDLE  (GB)           Brabham  (-Judd)

8.    Stefano  MODENA  (Ita)           Brabham  (-Judd)

T.    Gary  BRABHAM  (Aus)           Brabham  (-Judd)

T.    Tony  TRIMMER  (GB)             Brabham  (-Judd)    (did the shakedown of the car in the winter)

 

 

9.    Derek  WARWICK  (GB)          Arrows  (-Cosworth)

9.    Martin  DONNELLY  (Fra)        Arrows  (-Cosworth)    (replaced an injured Warwick in France at Le Castellet)

10.  Eddie  CHEEVER  (USA)        Arrows  (-Cosworth) 

T.    Gregor  FOITEK  (CH)             Arrows  (-Cosworth)    (he was in the running for an Arrows 1990 seat and tested for them but they choose Caffi & Alboreto)

T.    Paul  WARWICK  (GB)            Arrows  (-Cosworth)

 

11.  Nelson  PIQUET  (Bra)           Lotus  (-Judd)

12.  Satoru  NAKAJIMA  (Jap)       Lotus  (-Judd)

T.    Martin  DONNELLY  (GB)       Lotus  (-Judd)     (reserve driver)

T.    Dereck  WARWICK  (GB)       Lotus  (-Judd)    (end of '89 when he had already signed with Lotus)

 

15.  Mauriçio  GUGELMIN  (Bra)   March  (-Judd)

16.  Ivan  CAPELLI  (Ita)                March  (-Judd)

T.    Bruno GIACOMELLI  (Ita)       March  (-Judd)   (official test & reserve driver)

T.    Gary  BRABHAM  (GB)           March  (-Judd)

T.    Markku  ALEN  (Fin)                March  (-Judd)   (rally driver, probably a commercial stunt)

 

17.  Nicola  LARINI  (Ita)                Osella  (-Cosworth)

18.  Piercarlo  GHINZANI  (Ita)      Osella  (-Cosworth)

R.   J.J.  LEHTO  (Fin)                   Osella  (-Cosworth)   (official reserve driver)

T.    Enrico  BERTAGGIA  (Ita)       Osella  (-Cosworth)

 

19.  Alessandro  NANNINI  (Ita)     Benetton  (-Ford Cosworth works engine)

20.  Johnny  HERBERT  (GB)        Benetton  (-Ford Cosworth)

20.  Emanuele  PIRRO  (Ita)          Benetton  (-Ford Cosworth)

T.    Johnny  DUMFRIES  (GB)      Benetton  (-Ford Cosworth)

 

21.  Alex  CAFFI  (Ita)                     Scuderia Italia Dallara  (-Cosworth)

22.  Andrea  DE CESARIS  (Ita)     Dallara  (-Cosworth)

T.    Paolo  BARILLA  (Ita)               Dallara  (-Cosworth)    (official reserve driver but unsure if he actually tested, he became Minardi's test driver later that year)

 

23.  Pierluigi  MARTINI  (Ita)           Minardi  (-Cosworth)

23.  Paolo  BARILLA  (Ita)               Minardi  (-Cosworth)   (raced Martini's car in Suzuka because of a sponsor deal, he was Minardi's test driver)

24.  Luis  PEREZ-SALA  (Esp)        Minardi  (-Cosworth)

 

25.  René  ARNOUX  (Fra)              Ligier  (-Cosworth)

26.  Olivier  GROUILLARD  (Fra)    Ligier  (-Cosworth)

T.    Jean-Louis  SCHLESSER  (Fra)  Ligier  (-Cosworth)

 

27.  Nigel  MANSELL  (GB)              Ferrari

28.  Gerhard  BERGER  (Aut)          Ferrari

T.    Roberto  MORENO  (Bra)         Ferrari   (reserve driver) 

T.    Nicola  LARINI  (Ita)                  Ferrari   (2nd reserve driver)   

T.    J.J.  LEHTO  (Fin)                     Ferrari    

T.    Gianni  MORBIDELLI  (Ita)       Ferrari

 

29.  Yannick  DALMAS  (Fra)            Larrousse Lola  (-Cosworth)    (replaced from France as he was still suffering from the aftermath of Legionaire's disease)

29.  Eric  BERNARD  (Fra)                Lola  (-Lamborghini)

29.  Michele  ALBORETO  (Ita)          Lola  (-Lamborghini)

30.  Philippe  ALLIOT  (Fra)               Lola  (-Lamborghini)

T.    Emanuele  PIRRO  (Ita)              Lola  (-Lamborghini)    (won a shootout for Dalmas's seat but opted for Benetton, Bernard was 2nd in shootout)

T.    Jean-Louis  SCHLESSER  (Fra) Lola  (-Lamborghini)

T.    Paul  BELMONDO  (Fra)             Lola  (-Lamborghini)

T.    Alain  FERTE  (Fra)                     Lola  (-Lamborghini)   (not sure if he also was in the shootout but his name was in the mix to replace Dalmas)

 

31.  Roberto  MORENO  (Bra)            Coloni  (-Cosworth)

32.  Pierre-Henri  RAPHANEL  (Fra)  Coloni  (-Cosworth)

32.  Enrico  BERTAGGIA  (Ita)           Coloni  (-Cosworth)    (replaced Raphanel after he left to Rial)

 

33.  Gregor  FOITEK  (Ch)               Eurobrun  (-Judd)

33.  Oscar  LARRAURI  (Arg)          Eurobrun  (-Judd)  (replaced Foitek after he split with the team)

 

34.  Bernd  SCHNEIDER  (Ger)      Zakspeed  (-Yamaha)

35.  Aguri  SUZUKI  (Jap)                Zakspeed  (-Yamaha)

 

36.  Stefan  JOHANSSON  (Swe)    Onyx  (-Cosworth)

37.  Bertrand  GACHOT  (Bel)         Onyx  (-Cosworth)

37.  J.J.  LEHTO  (Fin)                     Onyx  (-Cosworth)   (bought Gachot's seat at the end of the season with Marlboro money)

T.    Eddie  IRVINE  (GB)                 Onyx  (-Cosworth)   (he never actually tested the car but he was named as their test driver early '89)

 

38.  Christian  DANNER  (Ger)        Rial  (-Cosworth)

38.  Gregor  FOITEK  (Ch)               Rial  (-Cosworth)

38.  Pierre-Henri  RAPHANEL  (Alg / Fra)  Rial  (-Cosworth)  (took over the lead car after Danner & Foitek left the team dissapointed)

39.  Volker  WEIDLER  (Ger)            Rial  (-Cosworth)

39.  Pierre-Henri  RAPHANEL  (Alg / Fra)  Rial  (-Cosworth)  (replaced a poor performing Weidler)

39.  Bertrand  GACHOT  (Bel)          Rial  (-Cosworth)      

T.    Thomas  DANIELSSON  (Swe)  Rial  (-Cosworth)      (looked set to replace Weidler but couldn't raise any budget, did test for them like Bartels)

T.    Michael  BARTELS  (Ger)           Rial  (-Cosworth)

 

40.  Philippe  STREIFF  (Fra)            AGS  (-Cosworth)     (was injured in pre season testing in Jacarepagua, Rio)

40.  Gabriele  TARQUINI  (Ita)           AGS  (-Cosworth) 

41.  Joachim  WINKELHOCK  (Ger)  AGS  (-Cosworth)

41.  Yannick  DALMAS  (Fra)             AGS  (-Cosworth)     (replaced a poor performing Winkelhock)

 

42.  Gabriele  TARQUINI  (Ita)           FIRST  (-Judd)    (did test in the winter but the car failed the crash test and they withdrew)

 

T.    Paolo  BARILLA  (Ita)                  REYNARD  (Cosworth)   (they tested several years but never entered F1)

 

T.    Franco  SCAPINI  (Ita)                LIFE  (-Rochi)    (this was the FIRST chassis that now had passed the crash test, they entered it in 1990 for Brabham & Giacomelli)


Edited by William Hunt, 04 October 2022 - 19:55.


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#2 William Hunt

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Posted 21 September 2022 - 23:51

TEMPLATE  TO FILL IN 2023 DRIVERS WITH 1989 CARS:

 

1.                                                       McLAREN   (-Honda)

2.                                                       McLAREN   (-Honda)

 

3.                                                       TYRRELL (-Cosworth)

4.                                                       TYRRELL  (-Cosworth)

 

5.                                                       WILLIAMS  (-Renault)

6.                                                       WILLIAMS  (-Renault)

 

7.                                                       BRABHAM  (-Judd)

8.                                                       BRABHAM  (-Judd)

 

9.                                                       ARROWS  (-Cosworth)

10.                                                     ARROWS  (-Cosworth)

 

11.                                                     LOTUS  (-Judd)

12.                                                     LOTUS  (-Judd)

 

15.                                                     MARCH  (-Judd)

16.                                                     MARCH  (-Judd)

 

17.                                                     OSELLA  (-Cosworth)

18.                                                     OSELLA  (-Cosworth)

 

19.                                                     BENETTON  (-Ford)

20.                                                     BENETTON  (-Ford)

 

21.                                                     SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)

22.                                                     SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)

 

23.                                                     MINARDI  (-Cosworth)

24.                                                     MINARDI  (-Cosworth)

 

25.                                                     LIGIER  (-Cosworth)

26.                                                     LIGIER  (-Cosworth)

 

27.                                                     FERRARI

28.                                                     FERRARI

 

29.                                                     LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)

30.                                                     LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)

 

31.                                                     COLONI  (-Cosworth)

32.                                                     COLONI  (-Cosworth)

 

33.                                                     EUROBRUN  (-Cosworth)

 

34.                                                     ZAKSPEED

35.                                                     ZAKSPEED 

 

36.                                                     ONYX  (-Cosworth)

37.                                                     ONYX  (-Cosworth)

 

38.                                                     RIAL  (-Cosworth)

39.                                                     RIAL  (-Cosworth)

 

40.                                                     AGS  (-Cosworth)

41.                                                     AGS  (-Cosworth)

 

42.                                                     FIRST  (-Cosworth)

 

 

TEMPLATE TO FILL IN 1989 DRIVERS (F1 & F3000 DRIVERS) IN THE 2023 F1 GRID:

 

1.                                                       RED BULL  (-Honda)

2.                                                       RED BULL  (-Honda)

3.                                                       MERCEDES

4.                                                       MERCEDES

5.                                                       WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

6.                                                       WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

7.                                                       McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

8.                                                       McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

11.                                                     ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes)

12.                                                     ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes) 

15.                                                     HAAS  (-Ferrari)

16.                                                     HAAS  (-Ferrari)

23.                                                     ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)                                                      

24.                                                     ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)

25.                                                     ALPINE  (-Renault)

26.                                                     ALPINE  (-Renault)

27.                                                     FERRARI

28.                                                     FERRARI 

29.                                                     SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)

30.                                                     SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)



#3 Beri

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 07:50

I really had to search hard for deserving drivers in F1 in all those 1989 seats. We complain that there are too few teams. But too many does point out that there are not a lot of drivers deserving of an F1 seat. I have restricted to F1, FE, F2 and W Series. As lower than this, SL points are an issue at times.

 

1. Max Verstappen - McLAREN   (-Honda)
2. Lewis Hamilton - McLAREN   (-Honda)
 
3. Oscar Piastri - TYRRELL (-Cosworth)
4. Pierre Gasly - TYRRELL  (-Cosworth)
 
5. Lando Norris - WILLIAMS  (-Renault)
6. Fernando Alonso - WILLIAMS  (-Renault)
 
7. Stoffel Vandoorne - BRABHAM  (-Judd)
8. George Russell - BRABHAM  (-Judd)
 
9. Alex Albon - ARROWS  (-Cosworth)
10. Esteban Ocon - ARROWS  (-Cosworth)
 
11. Josef Newgarden - LOTUS  (-Judd)
12. Lance Stroll - LOTUS  (-Judd)
 
15. Felipe Drugovic - MARCH  (-Judd)
16. Dennis Hauger - MARCH  (-Judd)
 
17. Kevin Magnussen - OSELLA  (-Cosworth)
18. António Félix da Costa - OSELLA  (-Cosworth)
 
19. Scott Dixon - BENETTON  (-Ford)
20. Sergio Perez - BENETTON  (-Ford)
 
21. Alexander Rossi - SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)
22. Christian Lundgaard - SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)
 
23. Nyck de Vries - MINARDI  (-Cosworth)
24. Kamui Kobayashi - MINARDI  (-Cosworth)
 
25. Jean Eric Vergne - LIGIER  (-Cosworth)
26. Theo Pourchaire - LIGIER  (-Cosworth)
 
27. Charles Leclerc - FERRARI
28. Daniel Ricciardo - FERRARI
 
29. Jüri Vips - LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)
30. Liam Lawson - LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)
 
31. Álex Palou - COLONI  (-Cosworth)
32. Carlos Sainz - COLONI  (-Cosworth)
 
33. Nikita Mazepin - EUROBRUN  (-Cosworth)
 
34. Mick Schumacher - ZAKSPEED
35. Nico Hülkenberg - ZAKSPEED 
 
36. Valtteri Bottas - ONYX  (-Cosworth)
37. Zhou Guanyu - ONYX  (-Cosworth)
 
38. Felix Rosenqvist - RIAL  (-Cosworth)
39. Jamie Chadwick - RIAL  (-Cosworth)
 
40. Callum Ilott - AGS  (-Cosworth)
41. Robert Shwartzman - AGS  (-Cosworth)
 
42. Yuki Tsunoda - FIRST  (-Cosworth)
 
 
The other way around was quite more intriguing. Knowing what some drivers have accomplished later on, this list was way more fun to make.
 
1. Ayrton Senna - RED BULL  (-Honda)
2. Jean Alesi - RED BULL  (-Honda)
 
3. Alain Prost - MERCEDES
4. Michele Alboreto - MERCEDES
 
5. Gabriele Tarquini - WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)
6. Jonathan Palmer - WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)
 
7. Gerhard Berger - McLAREN  (-Mercedes)
8. Nelson Piquet - McLAREN  (-Mercedes)
 
11. Johnny Herbert - ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes)
12. Alessandro Nannini - ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes) 
 
15. Eddie Cheever - HAAS  (-Ferrari)
16. Riccardo Patrese - HAAS  (-Ferrari)
 
23. Martin Brundle - ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)                                                      
24. Mauricio Gugelmin - ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)
 
25. Nicola Larini - ALPINE  (-Renault)
26. Bernd Schneider - ALPINE  (-Renault)
 
27. Derek Warwick - FERRARI
28. Stefan Johansson - FERRARI 
 
29. JJ Lehto - SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)
30. Thierry Boutsen - SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)
 
 
 
Anywho, a nice assignment! Props to you William.


#4 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:26

Thanks for filling in the 'assignement'

 

I would put 2 slow F2 drivers in the McLaren (-Honda's) so they will be in the midfield at best. McLaren won in '88-'89 almost every race, they not only had the quickest car but were rock reliable as well. If you put Max & Lewis in the McLaren's you guarantee a borefest for the race wins.

The midfield in '88-'89 and the battles after the McLaren's were extremely tight in '88-'89 so if you put slow drivers in the two best cars you guarantee an amazing championship. So why would you do that, do some people enjoy the same drivers winning every race? Same for putting Senna in the Red Bull: that guarantees him dominating, I would never do that for that reason even though I like Senna a lot, I don't enjoy the same winner every race at all but hey it's your choice ;)

I  would put Lewis & Max also in the same team but in one of the slowest teams so they would cause an upset by qualifying those cars now and then: that would be much more exciting as them finishing 1-2 all the time. Kamui Kobayashi seems the most unlikely in the grid since he is team boss of Toyota in WEC.

 

I'm still working on my list, it's in particular hard to have to leave so many good drivers from '89 off the current grid, isn't it? You even left several of my favourites out with Ivan Capelli, Bertrand Gachot, Stefano Modena & Pierluigi Martini. Hint: they will be on my list. '89 had really strong drivers.
Johnny Herbert won't make my list even though he was one of my favourites but he really wasn't fit enough in '89.

 

Nice to see you''ve thought about a woman on the grid. The fact that you've chosen quite a bit of IndyCar drivers proves that IndyCar should get more Super Licence points! I also will put two Frenchies in the Ligier squad since it was France's national team after all.

 

It's a fun excercise isn't it? But so hard to fill the 2023 cars, such tough choices so I'm gonna add reserve / test drivers to give more drivers a job in F1.

I find it even more fun to see where other people would place the drivers if they had free choice.

The though of '89 driver still driving in a parrallell universe is also exciting, so is the opposite.

And Derek Warwick would finally have a chance to win a race in F1 :) .

You have placed Mick Schumacher in the exact same seat as I had for '89. Makes sense to put one German driver at Zakspeed off course.

 

I noticed you left Nigel Mansell out so in a 10 car team Mansell could be out of F1 :) I'm also going to leave him out and Prost too because I didn't like him.

 

I really loved the old numbers system and hate the new one with a driver keeping a number all his carreer. In my alternative universe I allocated Haas' numbers to the numbers Carl Haas' (not Gene Haas) his red & blue coloured Beatrice sponsored Haas Lola's had. I allocated Ligier's numbers to Alpine (could have given them Renault's old 15-16 as well) because Ligier was sort off the national team of France and they also ran in blue.

AlphaTauri got Minardi's numbers since they grew out of that team. Gave Aston Martin Lotus 11-12 (that Jordan also has used). Mercedes got the 3-4 of Tyrrell (Tyrrell became BAR then Honda then Brawn and then Mercedes after all)....
 

Note that even with 39 cars you still left many good drivers out, like Colton Herta or Mitch Evans, Victor Martins or Marcus Armstrong for example, more proof that we urgently need more cars / teams. In any case I like those grids more as the real grids we had / will have.

 

This 'assignement' or "excercise" is to show what we are missing out on with more teams and.... how many excellent drivers in '89 would suddenly be out of a seat in current F1 and how extremely hard the choices you have to make then who is out and who is not. It's to counter people who claim we don't need any more teams.

PS: always have been supporting underdogs, back then I did and still do today (which is why I support smaller teams like Williams, Sauber or Haas... strange to call Williams a smaller team when it was a big top team in '89).
So I love the line-ups you gave to some of my favo teams in '89: Tyrrell, Brabham & March and glad you haven't forgotten my all time favourite Riccardo Patrese on the '23 line-up. I'll probably give him a good car though :)


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 13:35.


#5 JdB

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:37

Why 1989 & 2023?

#6 Myrvold

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 11:53

Why 1989 & 2023?

 

My guess is, without even checking - 1989 had the most full time teams in F1 history and 2023 is next year(that one I don't have to check :p )

 

I will answer this thread later William, a really interesting experiment this!



#7 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:13

Why 1989 & 2023?

 

For the exact reasons Myrvold gave (looking forward to his field). '89 had the most amount of teams. Now we just have 10, I'm trying to show what F1 could look like with more teams (even is Andretti got their slot we would still have 17 cars less as in '89....) and how many good drivers would be out of a seat in '89 with just 10 teams. We could later do the same exercice with '23 and another year but '89 is most interesting because it had such a large field.

F1 should be about competition and sports / competition also means survival of the fittest (but on a level playing field please) imho, not protecting money of existing teams who don't want competition.

If McLaren didn't have such a dominant car '89 could have been one of the best seasons of all time (instead they won almost everything in '88-'89, luckily we still had Monza '88 and Thierry Boutsen winning Montréal), in fact it would be interesting to calculate the championship with today's points (or with Moto GP system: top 15) but without counting McLaren: it would have been very tight then.
If we had 24 instead of 16 races in 1989 good chance we would have seen more cars winning, maybe even Capelli's March.

 

Would Newgarden & Dixon leave a top seat in IndyCar behind for F1? Well for a Lotus (in decline but still considered a top team then) and Benetton I'm pretty sure they would, for a lesser team no.
 


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 12:26.


#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:17

This is a fun thread. I’ll create my entry lists later.

#9 MKSixer

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 12:24

Great thread, William!  Homework over the weekend!!  Lots of skull sweat will go into this one!!



#10 Beri

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 13:45

Thanks for filling in the 'assignement'

 

1) I would put 2 slow F2 drivers in the McLaren (-Honda's) so they will be in the midfield at best. McLaren won in '88-'89 almost every race, they not only had the quickest car but were rock reliable as well. If you put Max & Lewis in the McLaren's you guarantee a borefest for the race wins.

The midfield in '88-'89 and the battles after the McLaren's were extremely tight in '88-'89 so if you put slow drivers in the two best cars you guarantee an amazing championship. So why would you do that, do some people enjoy the same drivers winning every race? Same for putting Senna in the Red Bull: that guarantees him dominating, I would never do that for that reason even though I like Senna a lot, I don't enjoy the same winner every race at all but hey it's your choice ;)

I  would put Lewis & Max also in the same team but in one of the slowest teams so they would cause an upset by qualifying those cars now and then: that would be much more exciting as them finishing 1-2 all the time. Kamui Kobayashi seems the most unlikely in the grid since he is team boss of Toyota in WEC.

 

2) I'm still working on my list, it's in particular hard to have to leave so many good drivers from '89 off the current grid, isn't it? You even left several of my favourites out with Ivan Capelli, Bertrand Gachot, Stefano Modena & Pierluigi Martini. Hint: they will be on my list. '89 had really strong drivers.
Johnny Herbert won't make my list even though he was one of my favourites but he really wasn't fit enough in '89.

 

3) Nice to see you''ve thought about a woman on the grid. The fact that you've chosen quite a bit of IndyCar drivers proves that IndyCar should get more Super Licence points! I also will put two Frenchies in the Ligier squad since it was France's national team after all.

 

It's a fun excercise isn't it? But so hard to fill the 2023 cars, such tough choices so I'm gonna add reserve / test drivers to give more drivers a job in F1.

I find it even more fun to see where other people would place the drivers if they had free choice.

The though of '89 driver still driving in a parrallell universe is also exciting, so is the opposite.

And Derek Warwick would finally have a chance to win a race in F1 :) .

4) You have placed Mick Schumacher in the exact same seat as I had for '89. Makes sense to put one German driver at Zakspeed off course.

 

5) I noticed you left Nigel Mansell out so in a 10 car team Mansell could be out of F1 :) I'm also going to leave him out and Prost too because I didn't like him.

 

I really loved the old numbers system and hate the new one with a driver keeping a number all his carreer. In my alternative universe I allocated Haas' numbers to the numbers Carl Haas' (not Gene Haas) his red & blue coloured Beatrice sponsored Haas Lola's had. I allocated Ligier's numbers to Alpine (could have given them Renault's old 15-16 as well) because Ligier was sort off the national team of France and they also ran in blue.

AlphaTauri got Minardi's numbers since they grew out of that team. Gave Aston Martin Lotus 11-12 (that Jordan also has used). Mercedes got the 3-4 of Tyrrell (Tyrrell became BAR then Honda then Brawn and then Mercedes after all)....
 

6) Note that even with 39 cars you still left many good drivers out, like Colton Herta or Mitch Evans, Victor Martins or Marcus Armstrong for example, more proof that we urgently need more cars / teams. In any case I like those grids more as the real grids we had / will have.

 

This 'assignement' or "excercise" is to show what we are missing out on with more teams and.... how many excellent drivers in '89 would suddenly be out of a seat in current F1 and how extremely hard the choices you have to make then who is out and who is not. It's to counter people who claim we don't need any more teams.

PS: always have been supporting underdogs, back then I did and still do today (which is why I support smaller teams like Williams, Sauber or Haas... strange to call Williams a smaller team when it was a big top team in '89).
7) So I love the line-ups you gave to some of my favo teams in '89: Tyrrell, Brabham & March and glad you haven't forgotten my all time favourite Riccardo Patrese on the '23 line-up. I'll probably give him a better car though :)

 

 

1) Well, thats what I though of as well. But I decided to enter the strongest drivers at the strongest team. Simply because both mentioned drivers are the epiphany of being the best racing driver out there. Besides, I would love to see how this would work out. Having Verstappen and Hamilton go at it at the same team and having a Senna/Prost or Hamilton/Alonso like relationship. Or can they seriously work well together and lift the team even further up? Intriguing none the less!

 

2) It is gruesome to decide on drivers. The ones youve mentioned are very good. But I had to decide and I think I have put my personal preference a bit more in front of objectively chosing said drivers. Thats mainly why Johnny Herbert is on the list.

 

3) I sincerely think, certainly with a grid that big, that Jamie should have a seat. But I cant say I would offer her a top midfield or even a top team seat. On the IndyCar drivers, I believe we have been quite on equel thoughts on this matter on other threads as well. I would love to see those race in Europe. And I am of the opinion that Dixon could have achieved great stuff in Europe. Its just a shame that he never got a proper chance. Not for him tho, being one of the most succesful IndyCar drivers ever, is not a bad stat on your resume.

 

4) I have gone a bit patriotic indeed. Having Zakspeed and Ligier filling a German and French lineup. But with that many drives to pick, I think it wouldnt be too far fetched.

 

5) In all honesty; I forgot. I had him on a preliminari list, he got off and somehow didnt get on again.

 

6) I left Herta out, because I am not on the "Herta hype train". He is good, but not the best IndyCar driver that would adapt to Formula One easy. He is quite erratic and lacks consistency. Something desperately needed in F1 if you want to succeed. Evans is someone who I cant really meassure. So I left him out.

 

7) It was a great assignment. Thank you for letting my imagination run wild   ;)  And on Patrese; he was, in this actual universe, in the right car at the right time. And rightfully so after the amount of work he stuck into Williams becoming a frontrunner with Renault. But I feel that despite all this, it was a seat that someone else could have filled better. Gerhard Berger for example. And thus I cant say I would add him to any of the current top 5 teams.



#11 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 13:55

You even had Mansell in your avatar to remind you!

#12 Beri

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 14:27

I.. Know..  :|

 

I cant comprehend my own stupidity if I am honest..  :lol:



#13 dweller23

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 15:13

Didn't know Ferrari had two reserve drivers in 1989. Interesting that they didn't field any of them as a replacement for Mansell in Spain?



#14 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 16:35

Didn't know Ferrari had two reserve drivers in 1989. Interesting that they didn't field any of them as a replacement for Mansell in Spain?

 

Neither did they replace Gerhard Berger at Monaco, that was very weird. It's very interesting to listen to the official F1 podcast (on youtube & also the F1 site) 'Beyond the Grid'. I like all episodes but probably the ones with Roberto Moreno & Ivan Capelli the most.

 

Moreno had won the F3000 title in dominant fashion (he had no money but Nelson Piquet helped him fiancially to get a ride in F3000, Piquet even said to the team owner that if Moreno would damgage the car he would pay for it, they were good friends). And during that season he received a business card from an Italian after he won a race. He didn't know the guy but it was Marco Piccinini who was in '88 the ... sportive director of the Ferrari F1 team. The guy said 'call me' to Roberto.
When he came home home Roberto's wife washed his racing clothes and found the business card and when Roberto looked at the card he saw the sun shining on a prancing horse... it was a Ferrari business card.
So he called Piccinini who invited him to Maranello and Enzo Ferrari said 'we know that you are very good at setting up a car and technically strong', 'we want you to become our test driver on a two year contract'. 'I would love to work for you but my dream is to race in F1' Moreno said. So Enzo Ferrari told him 'we will arrange an F1 race seat for you if you also test for us the rest of the time'.  

So Moreno started to developed the new John Barnard designed '89 Ferrari, which was radically different from '88, and Enzo arranged a seat for him at Coloni. Since Coloni was also Italian it was easy for Ferrari to arrange something there. That's how Roberto ended up at Coloni.

 

Ferrari also had hired Nicola Larini to do some testing for them, it was good for their image in Italy to also hire an Italian, and they placed Larini at another Italian team: Osella. Larini would stay many years with Ferari as their test driver. Later JJ Lehto was also added to the Ferrari test team: that was because Lehto was sponsored by Marlboro and Marlboro also sponsored Ferrari in those days so he came via that connection.

Larini & Lehto probably hardly tested the Ferrari cars in '89 though, they were more like Junior drivers they supported, a bit like the Junior programs today and Lehto as I said before because of Marlboro.

 

Lehto was managed by Keke Rosberg, who had just started a F1 management company then with Belgian Didier Coton his assistent. When Rosberg stopped management and went racing again for Peugeot in endurance and some DTM Coton took over that management company and became the manager of Mika Häkkinen who was initially also managed by Rosberg. Rosberg brought both Lehto & Häkkinen to F1. When Onyx needed money towards the end of the year Van Rossem fired Gachot supposedly because Gachot had talked bad about him in a newspaper, what actually was not true, it was an excuse to get Marlboro money from Lehto, Gachot did get paid out though and used the pay out to buy a ride at Rial (where Danner & Foitek had angrily left in succession, both claimed the car was dangerous and the team boss, Günther Schmidt mad: they were right. Raphanel had earlier that year replaced a poor driving Weidler there and the Frenchman was doing much better but by that time the team had gone backwards with no car development) at the end of the season. Rosberg had arranged that Marlboro sponsored Lehto at Onyx because Keke still had connections with Marlboro since he drove for them at McLaren in '86. In Gachot's 'Beyond the grid' interview he said the amount Marlboro paid but it was quite a lot for that time since Gachot received a big payout for breaking his contract and Marlboro paid that too.

 

So Ferrari actually had three test drivers with Roberto Moreno doing by far the bulk of the testing (Larini & Lehto did very little testing in '89, Moreno was all the time testing at Fiorano). Since Coloni didn't have money to test Moreno was always at Maranello during the week and often testing at Fioriano for Ferrari. So it is very weird they didn't use Moreno (or their Junior driver Larini) when Berger & Mansell could have been replaced. Without Moreno's hard work Ferrari would not have won two races that year (Mansell in Brazil & Hungary: two of his most epic wins).

At the time of Berger's Imola crash it was rumoured that Moreno or Larini would drive the Ferrari (with Moreno most likely), Larini would have been easy as well because Osella had named Lehto as their official reserve driver early '89. So it's really weird they didn't use them. Maybe Coloni (Moreno) or Osella (Larini) didn't want to loan their lead driver to Ferrari and demanded Ferrari to arange them a repclament, I don't know but then Osella still had Lehto as reserve and Moreno was placed there by Ferrari anyway (possibly Larini at Osella as well although he already was with them in '88). But it's really weird and it was unexpected at the time that they weren't replaced.

 

Oh I forgot to add Gianni Morbidelli to Ferrari's test driver list for 1989 (will edit that). Morbidelli was the Italian F3 champion in '89 and alo won the European F3 Cup that year (there was no more FIA European F3 championship: that was stopped after '84, Martini & Capelli were the last champions) but between '85 & '90 (and again from '99 until '04) there was a FIA European F3 Cup over 1 weekend.
The winners from '95-'90 were:

1985:   Alex Caffi  (Ita) at Le Castellet

1986:   Stefano Modena  (Ita) at Imola

1987:   Steve Kempton  (GB) at Silverstone

1988:   Joachim Winkelhock  (Ger)  at Nürburgring

1989:   Gianni Morbidelli  (Ita)  at Misano

1990:   Alessandro Zanardi  (Ita)  at Bugatti (Le Mans)

 

Ferrari added Morbidelli to their testing roster late in 1989, probably just after the season ended and he did still test for them in '89 and was an official Ferrari test driver for 4 straight years ('89-'93) and he tested again for them in '95 & '97. I'll edit Morbidelli in.

By 1990 Moreno had moved to Eurobrun and junior driver Larini was signed by Ligier so they didn't test for Ferrari anymore and Morbidelli became their official test & reserve driver and he got to sub when Alain Prost got fired in Adelaïde 1990. Morbidelli also acted as Dallara's reserve driver in '90.
In '91 one Ferrari added Andrea Montermini as 4th driver to their test team, he only stayed there one year. Montermini had already been a test driver at Dallara in '90 and tested for Larrousse in '92 (probably to evaluate him as a potential race driver) but he became official 3rd driver of Benetton that year. He only got to race in F1 for bad teams like Simtek (got injured with them in '94 in Spain), Pacific & Forti but like Morbidelli he was a very quick driver.

Nicola Larini eventually became an official Ferrari test driver in 1992 and kept that function until 1998.

 

Enzo Ferrari, after initially running a lot of Italians in the '50s, '60s and early '70s (Giunti, Merzario & Galli one GP), became reluctant to hire Italians again in the '70s. Because of the pressure from the Italian media whenever they hired an Italian driver he thought better of it. I believe he also was scared that an Italian would die in an F1 car (like Musso in '58 and Bandini in '71) and that Italian media would burn him then.

In '71 Ignazio Giunti had died in a Ferrari works sports car, due to none of his or the team's fault though. He ploughed in to the Matra that Jean-Pierre Beltoise was pushing in the middle of the track. Beltoise himself didn't get hit but Giunti drove at full speed in the back of the Matra that he couldn't see because he came from behind another car's slipstream. Beltoise lost his racing licence a short time because of it and was considered guilty of Giunti's death.

 

Arturo Merzario was the last Italian to race for Ferrari until Enzo hired Michele Alboreto in '83 (he had won two races for Tyrrell and was the new hype) for '84.

 

Enzo Ferrari did have an Italian test driver in the '70s though with F2 driver Maurizio Flammini  in that role in '74 & '75. Flammini almost replaced Lauda at one GP after Lauda had an accident in his garden with a ... lawn mower. I believe this was just before the Spanish GP (in Montjuich) in 1975. Flammini had even done a seat fitting but when Lauda heard about it he was furious and said he was fit to drive (I've read this in Lauda's biography).

 

In 1977 Ferrari hired the then still very young (19) Eddie Cheever as test diver, Cheever was vice champion in F2 that year and considered a future star. With American nationality but grew up in Rome, Cheever was actually half Italian, he even raced under Italian flag in karting two years before.

In 1978 Elio de Angelis tested for Ferrari. Ferrari was one of the few, if not the only team in the '70s who had test drivers since they had their own track at Fiorano.

In '83 Bruno Giacomelli also did a test for them, possibly to evaluate him as a test driver but it wasn't until 1985 when Ferrari again had a full time test driver with F3 star Johnny Dumfries who combined that with F3000 that year. Dumfries did a lot of milage that year for Ferrari but it was Johansson and not him who got to replace Arnoux. And they didn't replace him in '86 until they got Moreno in '88.

 

After Enzo Ferrari's death they did hire one Italian race driver again with Ivan Capelli for 1992. During the winter of '91 Capelli was breaking several track records in the '91 Ferrari. The Italian media was already seeing him as their next world champion.

Early '92 Capelli tested the new Ferrari and said the car was even worse as his March and worse as the '91 car and that they would never got to challenge teams like Williams or McLaren with the new car. But Alesi had just earlier tested the car and praised it. Alesi off course knew how politics worked at Maranello and that you couldn't criticise the car. So Capelli became the bad guy before the season even started. They let him start the season with a car that was half '91 half '92 whilst Alesi got all the new parts and Capelli had the worst time of his life there because he had dared to criticise their car.

The '92 Ferrari also was one of the worst cars Ferrari ever build, Capelli arrived at the wrong time and they put litterally all the blame on him instead of the car. When Capelli had a heavy shunt in Montréal because something broke on the car he was even asked to take the blame for it.... and he did.

Ivan should have known that Prost was fired there, the driver he actually replaced, for calling the Ferrari car a "truck" (or 'tractor').

One of the biggest talents in F1 of those days was wasted by internal politics and dirty games and Capelli left Ferrari early (he had a 2 year contract) as a broken man. So maybe Enzo was right it was not a good idea to hire Italian race drivers because of political games and pressure from tifosi & media in Italy.


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 17:59.


#15 F1Frog

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 17:36

1.         AYRTON SENNA                                              RED BULL  (-Honda)

2.         RICCARDO PATRESE                                              RED BULL  (-Honda)

3.         ALAIN PROST                                              MERCEDES

4.         GERHARD BERGER                                              MERCEDES

5.         STEFANO MODENA                                              WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

6.         PIERLUIGI MARTINI                                              WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

7.         ALESSANDRO NANNINI                                              McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

8.         JEAN ALESI                                              McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

11.       NELSON PIQUET                                              ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes)

12.       MICHELE ALBORETO                                              ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes) 

15.       JONATHAN PALMER                                              HAAS  (-Ferrari)

16.       EDDIE CHEEVER                                            HAAS  (-Ferrari)

23.        IVAN CAPELLI                                             ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)                                                      

24.        SATORU NAKAJIMA                                             ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)

25.        STEFAN JOHANSSON                                             ALPINE  (-Renault)

26.        DEREK WARWICK                                             ALPINE  (-Renault)

27.        NIGEL MANSELL                                             FERRARI

28.        THIERRY BOUTSEN                                             FERRARI 

29.         MARTIN BRUNDLE                                           SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)

30.         ERIC BERNARD                                          SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)



#16 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 17:51

@ F1 frog: amazing line-up. And that would be a way better line-up as Williams current line-up with Lafiti today. And you gave Aston Martin their wanted star driver with Piquet and thought about Honda with Nakajima, nice ;)



#17 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 18:03

2) It is gruesome to decide on drivers. The ones youve mentioned are very good. But I had to decide and I think I have put my personal preference a bit more in front of objectively chosing said drivers. Thats mainly why Johnny Herbert is on the list.

 

Personal preference is what this is all about since you get the chance to pick your favourites and put them where you like. I would have picked Herbert if he was two years older and a bit more recovered from his injuries, he was also a personal favourite of mine since his F3000 days. In reality Herbert was handicaped for life though, he still suffers from it today. It's astonishing he became a race winner despite that handicap, I believe he could have become a world champion without that Brands Hatch '88 crash (that same weekend Frenchman Michel Trollé also had a horror crash in qualy and also broke both legs ending his F1 hopes, he had already agreed to race F1 for Tyrrell in '89 then after rejecting an offer from Larrousse for '89). Talk about bad luck. One year after Trollé's crash Alesi was the new hype in France and he even ended up in that Tyrrell that Trollé would have been driving.... Everybody had already forgotten Trollé by then (not me).


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 18:05.


#18 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 18:42

So I've cracked open my 1989 Spanish GP programme (which I always have to hand) and taken it from there. I'm only going to draw from drivers in that programme for the modern grid (no idea why is has to be 2023 specifically) because they're my nostalgia. My main reasoning is my gut.

 

1989 with modern drivers:

 

McLaren-Honda

1. Max Verstappen

2. Charles Leclerc

 

Tyrrell-Ford

3. Alex Albon

4. Nyck de Vries

 

Williams-Renault

5. Valtteri Bottas

6. Sergio Perez

 

Brabham-Judd

7. Lance Stroll

8. Zhou Guanyu

 

Arrows-Ford

9. George Russell

10. Jo Newgarden

 

Lotus-Judd

11. Seb Vettel

12. Yuki Tsunoda

 

March-Judd

15. Lando Norris

16. Jamie Chadwick

 

Osella-Ford

17. Felipe Nasr

18. Theo Pourchaire

 

Benetton-Ford

19. Pato O'Ward

20. Fernando Alonso

 

Dallara-Ford

21. Romain Grojean

22. Lucas di Grassi

 

Minardi-Ford

23. Colton Herta

24. Carlos Sainz

 

Ligier-Ford

25. Dan Ricciardo

26. Esteban Ocon

 

Ferrari

27. Lewis Hamilton

28. Jean-Eric Vergne

 

Lola-Lamborghini

29. Sebastien Buemi

30. Pierre Gasly

 

Coloni-Ford

31. Nico Hulkenberg

32. Roy Nissany

 

Eurobrun-Judd

33. Juri Vips

 

Zakspeed-Yamaha

34. Mick Schumacher

35. Felipe Drugovich

 

Onyx-Ford

36. Kevin Magnussen

37. Marcus Ericsson

 

Rial-Ford

38. Nick Latifi

39. Tatiana Calderon

 

AGS-Ford

40. Antonio Giovinazzi

41. Stoffel Vandoorne

 

1989 drivers in today's teams

 

Red Bull

1. Ayrton Senna

11. Alain Prost

 

McLaren-Mercedes

3. Jonathan Palmer

4. Sandro Nannini

 

Aston Martin-Mercedes

5. Derek Warwick

18. Eddie Cheever

 

Williams-Mercedes

6. Thierry Boutsen

23. Nicola Larini

 

AlphaTauri-Red Bull

10. Mauricio Gugelmin

22. Stefan Johansson

 

Alpine-Renault

14. Jean Alesi

31. Roberto Moreno

 

Ferrari

16. Nigel Mansell

55. Gerhard Berger

 

Mercedes

44. Martin Brundle

63. Ivan Capelli

 

Haas-Ferrari

20. Nelson Piquet

47. Andrea de Cesaris

 

Alfa Romeo-Ferrari

24. Satoru Nakajima

77. Riccardo Patrese

 

That second one was harder. Tough to pick just 20 from those drivers. About 10 where obvious, but when it got to picking which of the various Italians to fill seats, it became a challenge.

 

Fun idea overall. Great thread idea.



#19 noikeee

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 18:47

I thought I would have plenty of drivers but was running out of them a bit.

 

McLaren: Max Verstappen / Fernando Alonso
Williams: George Russell / Lando Norris
Ferrari: Charles Leclerc / Lewis Hamilton
Benetton: Daniel Ricciardo / Pierre Gasly
Tyrrell: Carlos Sainz / Oscar Piastri
Lotus: Esteban Ocon / Colton Herta
Arrows: Sergio Perez / Felipe Drugovich
Dallara: Valtteri Bottas / Theo Pourchaire
Brabham: Nico Hulkenberg / Nyck de Vries
Onyx: Sebastian Vettel / Jack Doohan
Minardi: Mick Schumacher / Lance Stroll
March: Yuki Tsunoda / Guanyu Zhou
Rial: Alex Albon / Logan Sargeant
Ligier: Kevin Magnussen  / Victor Martins
AGS: Jean-Eric Vergne / Liam Lawson
Larrousse: Felipe Nasr / Robert Schwartzman
Osella: Robin Frijns / Alex Palou
Coloni: Antonio Giovinazzi / Sebastian Buemi
Zakspeed: Kamui Kobayashi / Pato O'Ward
Eurobrun: Filipe Albuquerque
First: Stoffel Vandoorne
 
I thought Max and Lewis in the dominant 89 McLaren would be far too toxic after last year, so what's the best way to fix toxic, that's right add Fernando Alonso into the equation.
 
Charles and Lewis would be electric in the fast but unreliable 89 Ferrari. Like 2 Mansells instead of 1.
 
Lando and George would be much more exciting in that Williams than Boutsen-Patrese who were good drivers but a bit boring. We'd also figure out who's the true British heir to Lewis.
 
I put Dan and Pierre together because I'd like to figure out once and for all, if Dan has gotten rubbish or Pierre has gotten good since Red Bull, or not.
 
Then I had a lot of teams in which I put a solid upper-midfielder driver and a young star, so we can get a feel for how good they are.
 
Mick v Lance because that's just natural, Yuki vs Guanyu because that just feels like the worst PR disaster ever, a Chinese vs a Japanese, what could possibly go wrong there.
 
Then I just randomly filled in with good drivers around other series, than I either believe were much better than what they looked in F1 or got their career very harshly cut off (the likes of Vergne Kobayashi Buemi and Nasr), and just random Indycar or F2 or F3 good drivers. I thought of Hadjar and Bearman who are exciting prospects but anyone under 18 can't enter because these are the rules.
 
Then I went for Filipe Albuquerque over Felix da Costa as my token Portuguese guy because he's a nicer bloke without a fascist family and although less famous also should've made it to F1.
 
Then, erm, William, you might notice there's something slightly wrong with one of the entries to fill up in the list here...
 
 
edit: forgot Alex Albon.... that's Scott McLaughlin's F1 dreams shattered, sorry.

Edited by noikeee, 22 September 2022 - 18:57.


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#20 milestone 11

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 19:02

I.. Know..  :|
 
I cant comprehend my own stupidity if I am honest..  :lol:

You're fired anyway, we have Newdarden, Dixon, Illot, Rossi, Rosie, Palou, Lundgaard, and even Chadwick with nary a glimpse of Herta. Boo hoo.

#21 noikeee

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 19:11

As for the other way around... this one feels very weird. That point in time was strange, Senna Prost and Mansell were at their peaks but there weren't a lot of interesting up-and-coming drivers. At least not with hindsight now we know the likes of Capelli, Modena, Herbert, Pirro, even Alesi didn't amount to much. There were also a lot of veterans on a massive decline, like Alboreto Arnoux Johansson etc. It's a kinda crap grid I'll even risk saying? I'm really struggling to pick 20.
 
Red Bull: Ayrton Senna / Nigel Mansell
Ferrari: Alain Prost / Gerhard Berger
Mercedes: Nelson Piquet / Derek Warwick
Alpine: Thierry Boutsen / Riccardo Patrese
McLaren: Jean Alesi / Alessandro Nannini
Alfa Romeo: Martin Brundle / Pierluigi Martini
Haas: Ivan Capelli / Eddie Cheever
Alpha Tauri: Johnny Herbert / Stefano Modena
Aston Martin: Alex Caffi / Stefan Johansson
Williams: Jonathan Palmer / Mauricio Gugelmin


#22 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 20:09

@ Noikee: Senna & Mansell in one team is a fistfight waiting in the pits  :D So would a repeat of Mansell & Piquet or Piquet & Senna probably end up in a fistfight if they were in the same team. I think it would end worse as Prost & Senna. We could use such a duo in the same team today though. It would give sparks. Piquet had a great sense of humour, a practical joker, but he also could be pretty nasty in a mental war game. If you team Senna & Mansell up, Mansell would go in whining mode.

I completely disagree with your assessment of the '89 grid though, it was an amazing grid if you ask me. Capelli & Modena were very very talented, so was Pirro but he arrived in F1 far too late when he wasn't that sharp anymore as when he was younger and he still became a great driver at Le Mans. Pirro was also constantly suffering from jet lag in '89 because he was flying between Japan and the races every time since he was McLaren's Honda development driver for their engine and he combined that with Benetton.

Capelli got treated extremely badly at Ferrari: it broke him completely. He got treatment similar  to what Dumfries had to endure at Lotus and Vandoorne in his 2nd year at McLaren.

Capelli's results there are completely not representative of his talent. He won both the European F3 & F3000 championship when it was at it's peak of competitiveness and should have won in Le Castellet 1990. During the winter of '91 when Capelli just arrived at Ferrari he was breaking lap record after lap record in the '91 Ferrari during private testing. But he got f!cked over big time in '92.

 

Alesi did miraculous things at Tyrrell and would have been a multiple world champion had he not canceled his Williams contract for Ferrari.

Arnoux was long over his peak in '89 but was a great qualy driver in the early '80s. 

I think you're judging drivers more on the material (their car) they had instead of on their talent. You can't win races in a Dallara, Onyx, Larrousse or Ligier.

And it's not because Modena ended up a very dissapointing carreer considering  the hype around him that he wasn't a very talented driver: he was. And he put a Tyrrell on the front row in Monaco.

Tarquini & Moreno were now and then performing miraces in dreadful cars, Raphanel did a miracle as well for Coloni in Monaco with a stunning qualifying lap.

Alesi, Bernard, Donnely all had strong debuts.

Personally I think I like the grids of the end of the '70s early '80s the most but '89 also had a great grid so did the early '90s.

 

Filling in the 1989 grid with 2023 drivers is actually more interesting because then you can see how much more drivers we could in theory have in F1 and who is missing out now (though I admit '89 was extreme with 39 cars, 30 or 32 would be ideal with 4 or 6 non qualifiers) 


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 20:57.


#23 noikeee

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 20:54

To me that field just had a huge gulf in from the top 4 guys (well top 3 + the ghost of Piquet) to the rest. Sure Capelli and Modena were super promising but ultimately they didn't take their chances, whether those chances were fair or not. Alesi was obviously also talented but never established himself as a top driver. Better cars would've helped but being quite far off Prosts pace, then spending years at Bergers level tells me he wasn't world champion like elite.

#24 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 21:00

Berger's level? Did you see Berger at the Japanese & Australian GP of 1987? Those were amazing drives. The thing with Berger is: after his Imola '89 crash he lost that agressiveness and became a more carefull driver but he had to go up against Senna: a duel nobody could win. But he was still a very fine driver.

 

Why do you expect every driver to be elite or world champion? Only very few can be elite and if many were of elite level then there wouldn't be an elite, those elite drivers like Senna or Prost wouldn't be special anymore then. What's wrong with beiing a solid midfield driver in F1?

I appreciate drivers who can have a decent or even long carreer in F1 a lot too. They don't all have to be winners for me. Racing at that level and beiing competitive in the midfield is already a great achievement for a racing driver. Every racing driver dreams of F1 so if one can reach it they already realise a dream in a way.


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 21:05.


#25 noikeee

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 21:06

Bergers post accident level.

There's nothing wrong with being a solid midfielder, it's just that Jean had the hype to be quite a lot more. And like I said there's quite the gulf in this bunch between those that were elite, and those who weren't. Look at grids from other eras, you can often find 5 or 6 more drivers that maybe weren't quite Sennas but had a claim to be close to that, near elite. Not so much with the field of 89.

#26 William Hunt

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Posted 22 September 2022 - 21:16

I agree Berger was never the same after his accident, lost his agression. He admitted that and said he became more cautious and took less risks after Imola. It was obvious for the fans too, back in '86-'87 he was sometimes driving like a madman, so much risks bit it was exciting.

Which grids from the past do you like most then? The '70s? '60s? '90s? '60s had great drivers but low grid counts. '30s had very strong drivers


Edited by William Hunt, 22 September 2022 - 23:30.


#27 HistoryFan

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 07:30

Nice thread. Interesting would be also the question: which teams could field up the grid. Now we have 10 teams, in 1989 we had 20 teams.

 

What 10 teams could join Formula 1? My list is:

 

1) Andretti

2) Panthera Asia

3) Penske

4) AF Corse

5) Prema

6) ART

7) Iron Lynx

8) Glickenhaus

9) Hyundai

10) Mahindra



#28 DeKnyff

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 10:00

I think it would be more interesting to draw a parallelism between teams. Drivers are much more volatile. So, in my opinion:

 

McLaren 1989   =  Red Bull 2022           Best team, ruthless management

Williams 1989    =  Mercedes 2022        Top team, temporarily not winning

Ferrari 1989       =  Ferrari 2022              Ferrari

Benetton 1989   =  McLaren 2022          On the rise, almost there but not yet

Tyrrell 1989        =  Alfa Romeo 2022      Lower midfield, a bit meh!

Lotus 1989        =  Williams 2022            Glorious past, but currently a has-been

Arrows 1989      =  Alpha Tauri 2022       Solid team, not much to write about

Brabham 1989   =  Alpine 2022              Management changes, future not clear

Ligier 1989         =  Aston Martin 2022    Maverick team

Osella 1989       =  Haas 2022                 Backmarker with links to Ferrari

 

Dallara, Onyx, Minardi, March, Rial, AGS, Larrousse, Coloni, Zakspeed: would have never existed in 2022.



#29 William Hunt

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 10:08

Nice thread. Interesting would be also the question: which teams could field up the grid. Now we have 10 teams, in 1989 we had 20 teams.

 

What 10 teams could join Formula 1? My list is:

 

1) Andretti

2) Panthera Asia

3) Penske

4) AF Corse

5) Prema

6) ART

7) Iron Lynx

8) Glickenhaus

9) Hyundai

10) Mahindra

 

Glickenhaus really doesn't have the money for setting up such an operation. My brother visited them in the US not so long ago (he is an autosport / sportscars and historic cars photographer as a profession) and he thinks their WEC team probably won't last that long anymore: they're too small and don't sell enough cars per year in his opinion.
I think Glickenhaus will try to sell 1 or 2 Hypercars in WEC to a private customer team that could run them, that could help fund their factory team.
Iron Lynx (who are now in a joint venture with Prema) once said they would love to enter F1 one day.
Prema certainly is capable of it. ART is pretty big too if you consider that they form one company with Birel (Birel ART), Birel ART is a very big kart manufacturer, not as big as Tony Kart though: they are huge but still 2nd or 3rd biggest in the world.


Edited by William Hunt, 24 September 2022 - 10:09.


#30 William Hunt

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 10:12

....

Dallara, Onyx, Minardi, March, Rial, AGS, Larrousse, Coloni, Zakspeed: would have never existed in 2022.

 

Lol Dallara is the biggest single seater manufacturer in the world today and a huge company. All IndyCars, F2, F3 & EuroFormula Open's are Dallara's. And they are a partner of Haas helping them to produce a F1 car so they are already in F1 today via Haas.


Edited by William Hunt, 24 September 2022 - 10:27.


#31 DeKnyff

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 12:09

Lol Dallara is the biggest single seater manufacturer in the world today and a huge company. All IndyCars, F2, F3 & EuroFormula Open's are Dallara's. And they are a partner of Haas helping them to produce a F1 car so they are already in F1 today via Haas.

 

I thought we were talking about how the teams and drivers of 1989 would look today. 

 

And no, the Dallara of the eighties wouldn't be in F1 today. They would never have passed the $ 200M barrier, neither they would have the funds to purchase an existing team. Their F1 adventure was a half-hearted attempt which didn't last long, only marginally above Coloni or Rial. It was only one decade later that they started in Indy.



#32 Atreiu

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Posted 24 September 2022 - 16:23

So, I just realized I am so disconnected from feeder series I cannot fit 26 pilots in a fictional 2023 grid.



#33 Beri

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Posted 26 September 2022 - 07:21

You're fired anyway, we have Newdarden, Dixon, Illot, Rossi, Rosie, Palou, Lundgaard, and even Chadwick with nary a glimpse of Herta. Boo hoo.

 

Well, Im not alone in this stance   ;)  Rinus Veekay has exclaimed on Dutch TV that he thinks Herta is not the best driver in IndyCar who deserves a shot in F1. He thinks, and I do so as well, that Newgarden would be a perfect fit.



#34 milestone 11

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Posted 26 September 2022 - 09:33

Well, Im not alone in this stance   ;)  Rinus Veekay has exclaimed on Dutch TV that he thinks Herta is not the best driver in IndyCar who deserves a shot in F1. He thinks, and I do so as well, that Newgarden would be a perfect fit.

Oh, I thought it was me that was alone.

#35 HistoryFan

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Posted 27 September 2022 - 10:13

Iron Lynx (who are now in a joint venture with Prema) once said they would love to enter F1 one day.
 

 

yes and they have the money. They will also likely run the Lamborghini LMDh effort.

 



#36 William Hunt

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Posted 27 September 2022 - 16:26

yes and they have the money. They will also likely run the Lamborghini LMDh effort.

 

Would love to see your 2023 grid with '89 drivers and '89 grid with '23 drivers HistoryFan, very curious to read your choices, there have already been a couple of people who posted interesting choices that I loved seeing. I'll post mine soon.



#37 RasmVest

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Posted 27 September 2022 - 18:51

What a fun and interesting experiment. Here's my grid of 1989 drivers in the 2023 teams. Tough decisions have been made.

 

🇦🇹 Red Bull:

🇧🇷 Ayrton Senna

🇦🇹 Gerhard Berger

 

🇮🇹 Ferrari:

🇫🇷 Jean Alesi

🇮🇹 Alessandro Nannini

 

🇩🇪 Mercedes:

🇫🇷 Alain Prost

🇬🇧 Nigel Mansell

 

🇬🇧 McLaren:

🇮🇹 Riccardo Patrese

🇬🇧 Martin Brundle

 

🇫🇷 Alpine:

🇧🇪 Thierry Boutsen

🇫🇷 Yannick Dalmas

 

🇬🇧 Aston Martin:

🇧🇷 Nelson Piquet

🇬🇧 Johnny Herbert

 

🇮🇹 AlphaTauri:

🇬🇧 Eddie Irvine

🇫🇮 JJ Lehto

 

🇮🇹 Alfa Romeo:

🇮🇹 Michele Alboreto

🇩🇪 Bernd Schneider

 

🇺🇸 Haas:

🇺🇸 Eddie Cheever

🇮🇹 Emanuele Pirro

 

🇬🇧 Williams:

🇬🇧 Derek Warwick

🇸🇪 Stefan Johansson

 

It's obviously "very early" days for a guy like Eddie Irvine, who wouldn't debut in F1 until 1993, but I wanted some of the younger guys with their career ahead of them. A lot of the '89 guys doesn't have that.

 

Italians Stefano Modena, Ivan Capelli and Gabriele Tarquini are probably first in line to replace either Irvine og JJ Lehto, if that line-up proves too inexperienced.

 

I will post the 2023 drivers in 1989 teams tomorrow.



#38 William Hunt

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Posted 27 September 2022 - 19:39

Man this is really fun to see where other people would place drivers to be honest,  great line-ups from everyone without exception. And some people have gone as far as putting two big names (and big egos) in one team which would be exploding to watch (but probably not best for intermal team dynamics). We all know the Prost-Senna situation: great for tv viewers, less for the team themselves (who most likely were internally divided) probably.



#39 JvsKVB77

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Posted 28 September 2022 - 06:41

My choice)

 

1989 cars

 

1. Max Verstappen McLAREN   (-Honda)

2. Lando Norris      McLAREN   (-Honda)

 

3. Esteban Ocon       TYRRELL (-Cosworth)

4. Josef Newgarden  TYRRELL  (-Cosworth)

 

5. Lewis Hamilton WILLIAMS  (-Renault)

6. Valtteri Bottas   WILLIAMS  (-Renault)

 

7. Sergio Perez        BRABHAM  (-Judd)

8. Jean-Éric Vergne BRABHAM  (-Judd)

 

9. George Russell        ARROWS  (-Cosworth)

10. Stoffel Vandoorne  ARROWS  (-Cosworth)

 

11. Carlos Sainz  LOTUS  (-Judd)

12. Oscar Piastri  LOTUS  (-Judd)

 

15. Alexander Albon  MARCH  (-Judd)

16. Lance Stroll          MARCH  (-Judd)

 

17. Jake Dennis OSELLA  (-Cosworth)

18. Victor Martins OSELLA  (-Cosworth)

 

19. Fernando Alonso BENETTON  (-Ford)

20. Daniel Ricciardo  BENETTON  (-Ford)

 

21. Daniil Kvyat            SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)

22. Antonio Giovinazzi SCUDERIA ITALIA  DALLARA  (-Cosworth)

 

23. Kevin Magnussen  MINARDI  (-Cosworth)

24. Raffaele Marciello  MINARDI  (-Cosworth)

 

25. Pierre Gasly        LIGIER  (-Cosworth)

26. Théo Pourchaire LIGIER  (-Cosworth)

 

27. Charles Leclerc   FERRARI

28. Nico Hulkenberg FERRARI

 

29. James Calado      LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)

30. Naoki Yamamoto  LARROUSSE  LOLA  (-Lamborghini)

 

31. Nyck de Vries COLONI  (-Cosworth)

32. Joel Eriksson  COLONI  (-Cosworth)

 

33. Jüri Vips  EUROBRUN  (-Cosworth)

 

34. Mick Schumacher  ZAKSPEED

35. Mitchell Evans       ZAKSPEED 

 

36. Alex Palou                ONYX  (-Cosworth)

37. Robert Shwartzman  ONYX  (-Cosworth)

 

38. Yuki Tsunoda        RIAL  (-Cosworth)

39. Felipe Drugovich  RIAL  (-Cosworth)

 

40. Robin Frijns                   AGS  (-Cosworth)

41. António Félix da Costa  AGS  (-Cosworth)

 

42. Zhou Guanyu  FIRST  (-Cosworth)

 

2022 teams

 

1. Ayrton Senna                     RED BULL  (-Honda)

2. Rene Arnoux                      RED BULL  (-Honda)

3. Riccardo Patrese               MERCEDES

4. Michele Alboreto                MERCEDES

5. Johnny Herbert                  WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

6.  Roberto Moreno                WILLIAMS  (-Mercedes)

7.  Nigel Mansell                    McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

8. Thierry Boutsen                 McLAREN  (-Mercedes)

11. Gerhard Berger                ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes)

12. Martin Brundle                 ASTON MARTIN  (-Mercedes) 

15. Stefan Johansson            HAAS  (-Ferrari)

16. Eddie Cheever                 HAAS  (-Ferrari)

23. Andrea de Cesaris           ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)                                                      

24. Satoru Nakajima              ALPHA TAURI  (-Honda)

25. Nelson Piquet                   ALPINE  (-Renault)

26. Jean Alesi                         ALPINE  (-Renault)

27. Alain Prost                        FERRARI

28. Alessandro Nannini          FERRARI 

29. Derek Warwick                SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)

30. Stefano Modena              SAUBER / ALFA ROMEO  (-Ferrari)


Edited by JvsKVB77, 28 September 2022 - 06:47.


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#40 HistoryFan

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Posted 28 September 2022 - 13:06

Would love to see your 2023 grid with '89 drivers and '89 grid with '23 drivers HistoryFan, very curious to read your choices, there have already been a couple of people who posted interesting choices that I loved seeing. I'll post mine soon.

 

That's a hard one.

 

TEMPLATE  TO FILL IN 2023 DRIVERS WITH 1989 CARS:

 

Lewis Hamilton (McLaren-Honda)

Lando Norris (McLaren-Honda)   

 

Charles Leclerc (Ferrari)

Carlos Sainz (Ferrari)

 

Fernando Alonso (Benetton-Ford)

Daniel Ricciardo (Benetton-Ford)

 

Sergio Pérez (Lotus-Judd)

Sebastian Vettel (Lotus-Judd)

 

Kevin Magnussen (Arrows-Ford)

Valtteri Bottas (Arrows-Ford)

 

George Russell (March-Judd)   

Oscar Piastri (March Judd)

 

Max Verstappen (Williams-Renault)

Alexander Albon (Williams-Renault)

 

Guanyou Zhou (Tyrrell-Ford)

Kimi Räikkönen (Tyrrell-Ford)

 

Lance Stroll (Rial-Ford)

David Beckmann (Rial-Ford)

 

Mick Schumacher (Minardi-Ford)

Nyck de Vries (Minardi-Ford)

 

Théo Purchaire (Lola-Lamborghini)

Jean-Eric Vergne (Lola-Lamborghini)

 

Antonio Giovinazzi (Dallara-Ford)

Roy Nissany (Dallara-Ford)

 

René Rast (AGS Ford)

Scott Dixon (AGS-Ford)

 

Jarno Trulli (Coloni-Ford)

Matteo Nannini (Coloni-Ford)

 

Pierre Gasly (Ligier-Ford)

Esteban Ocon (Ligier-Ford)     

 

Sébastien Buemi (Osella-Ford) 

Lucas di Grassi (Osella-Ford)

 

André Lotterer (EuroBrun-Judd)     

 

Yuki Tsunoda (Zakspeed-Yamaha)

Nicolas Hülkenberg (Zakspeed-Yamaha)

 

Colton Herta (Brabham-Judd)

Matthew Brabham (Brabham-Judd)

 

Nikita Mazepin (Onyx-Ford)

Rinus VeeKay (Onyx-Ford)                                



#41 RasmVest

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Posted 28 September 2022 - 14:08

I promised to post my choice of 2023 drivers in 1989 cars, so here it is.

 

🇬🇧 McLaren:

🇳🇿 Scott Dixon

🇺🇸 Josef Newgarden

🇬🇧 Mike Conway (test/reserve driver)

 

How will the two best Indycar drivers fare against the top F1 drivers given the best machinery?

 

🇬🇧 Williams:

🇬🇧 Lewis Hamilton

🇦🇺 Daniel Ricciardo

🇦🇺 Jack Doohan (test/reserve driver)

 

Williams tried to convince 🇩🇪 Sebastian Vettel to stay with the team, but the former champion decided to retire from racing. Williams signed Ricciardo from Brabham instead. Lewis Hamilton continues to write history with the "Red 5" on his car.

 

🇮🇹 Ferrari:

🇳🇱 Max Verstappen

🇲🇨 Charles Leclerc

🇮🇹 Antonio Giovinazzi (test/reserve driver)

 

Can the young stars help Ferrari to the WCC before 1999?

 

🇬🇧 Benetton:

🇪🇸 Fernando Alonso

🇲🇽 Sergio Pérez

🇷🇺 Robert Shwartzman (test/reserve driver)

 

Can Benetton continue the upwards trend it has had since debuting in 1986? Alonso will definitely drive his car onto the podium occasionally.

 

🇬🇧 Tyrrell:

🇪🇸 Carlos Sainz Jr.

🇧🇪 Stoffel Vandoorne

🇳🇿 Liam Lawson (test/reserve driver)

 

Tyrrell is no longer the force it once was. Can Sainz Jr. and Vandoorne bring it back to winning ways?

 

🇬🇧 Lotus:

🇦🇺 Will Power

🇲🇽 Patricio O'Ward

🇬🇧 Alex Lynn (test/reserve driver)

 

A mix of experience and exciting talent will try to make Lotus a winning team again.

 

🇬🇧 Arrows:

🇬🇧 George Russell

🇬🇧 Lando Norris

🇬🇧 Will Stevens (test/reserve driver)

 

Who's the best of the young Brits?

 

🇮🇹 Scuderia Italia-Dallara:

🇫🇮 Valtteri Bottas

🇫🇷 Pierre Gasly

🇧🇷 Felipe Drugovich (test/reserve driver)

 

Two pairs of stable hands will help Scuderia Italia to at least a few points.

 

🇬🇧 Brabham:

🇩🇰 Kevin Magnussen

🇳🇿 Scott McLaughlin

🇳🇿 Earl Bamber (test/reserve driver)

 

A solid mid-pack fighter and tin-top star, who will become stronger race by race.

 

🇬🇧 Onyx:

🇪🇸 Alex Palou

🇵🇹 António Félix da Costa

🇪🇪 Jüri Vips (test/reserve driver)

 

Jean-Pierre van Rossem's team won the contractual fight over Palou, who had also signed for Minardi...

 

🇮🇹 Minardi:

🇹🇭 Alexander Albon

🇧🇷 Felipe Nasr

🇮🇹 Antonio Fuoco (test/reserve driver)

 

Everyone's favourite small team will be capable of giant-killing acts with this line-up.

 

🇬🇧 March:

🇸🇪 Felix Rosenqvist

🇦🇺 Oscar Piastri

🇳🇿 Mitch Evans (test/reserve driver)

 

Has March signed the talent of the century to partner the versatile Swede?

 

🇩🇪 Rial:

🇩🇪 Pascal Wehrlein

🇯🇵 Yuki Tsunoda

🇨🇭 Nico Müller (test/reserve driver)

 

Rial tried to convince 🇩🇪 Nico Rosberg to come out of retirement, but the former champion didn't believe the teams' car to be competitive and decided against it.

 

🇫🇷 Ligier:

🇫🇷 Esteban Ocon

🇫🇷 Jean-Éric Vergne

🇫🇷 Théo Pourchaire (test/reserve driver)

 

Will the French national team ever reach the podium again?

 

🇫🇷 AGS:

🇨🇭 Sébastien Buemi

🇳🇿 Brendon Hartley

🇫🇷 Simon Pagenaud (test/reserve driver)

 

Former F1 failures turned sportscar aces try their luck in a small team.

 

🇫🇷 Larrousse-Lola:

🇺🇸 Alexander Rossi

🇨🇳 Zhou Guanyu

🇫🇷 Romain Grosjean (test/reserve driver)

 

A line-up that gives the team access to the two biggest markets in the world.

 

🇮🇹 Osella:

🇳🇱 Nyck de Vries

🇮🇹 Raffaele Marciello

🇵🇱 Robert Kubica (test/reserve driver)

 

Junior champion and underrated GT star will push Osella forward.

 

🇮🇹 Coloni:

🇺🇸 Colton Herta

🇬🇧 James Calado

🇦🇷 José María López (test/reserve driver)

 

Can Herta outdrive a slow car and show real talent?

 

🇩🇪 Zakspeed:

🇩🇪 Nico Hülkenberg

🇩🇪 Mick Schumacher

🇩🇰 Christian Lundgaard (test/reserve driver)

 

The German national team hangs its hopes on the famously-named Schumi Jr. and the eternal talent Hülkenberg.

 

🇮🇹 Eurobrun:

🇳🇱 Robin Frijns

🇸🇪 Marcus Ericsson (if running two cars like in '88 and '90)

🇷🇺 Daniil Kvyat (test/reserve driver)

 

Often overlooked Frijns finally gets his chance. But can he even qualify the car?

 

🇮🇹 FIRST:

🇨🇭 Edoardo Mortara

🇮🇹 Mirko Bortolotti (test/reserve driver)

 

Will Mortara actually ever be a Formula One driver?

 

--

 

Rumours are Lawrence Stroll is attempting to buy a team for his son, Lance, for the 1990 season, but which one will it be, and which talented driver will be sidelined as a consequence?

 

--

 

So what do you think. Which team could be the surprise package and who will disappoint? The season opener in Brazil is not far away.



#42 William Hunt

William Hunt
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Posted 28 September 2022 - 19:17

Wow what an amazing grid  :love: . Tyrrell & Arrows will be surprise packages. Benetton very strong line-up with Alonso & Perez: they will win at least a race. Palou & Da Costa at Onyx: nice :) Great line-up. Water comes in the mouth.



#43 RasmVest

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Posted 28 September 2022 - 19:54

Thank you! Can't wait to see your own line-up.