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NASCAR Cup Teams Whining About New Car


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#1 Magoo

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Posted 28 September 2022 - 13:22

To be perfectly honest, I don't have total sympathy for many of the teams complaining about the new Cup car. 

 

The old car had 50+ YEARS of development behind it. Now people have work to do, and many of them don't like it. 

 

Hey, in Formula 1 they have new cars too. Every. Single. Season. How do they not go mad? By accepting and engaging the challenges. 

 

New Formulae and rule changes are a very old story in motorsports, and there is a familiar pattern. Some people complain, while others see an opportunity for advantage and dig in. Guess who wins the races as things get sorted out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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#2 Fat Boy

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 12:46

It's always adorable when those who don't criticize those who do.



#3 Magoo

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 17:48

It's always adorable when those who don't criticize those who do.

 

LOL who hurt you?  



#4 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 October 2022 - 22:47

Tl;dr: If you don’t play nice; neither will I.

 

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Oh, Please…

 

We’ve both been on this forum for damned near 20 years. I don’t know you, but I know your persona and you mine. I figured out a long time ago you were a BS artist, but what did I care?

 

Then you p-ssed me off.

 

I bet it felt great to crawl up on that high-horse to call names and insinuate that I was among the lowest to have ever walked the planet. The righteous indignation nearly oozed through the screen. It must have been gratifying in the least.

 

Fine. It’s still a racing forum, isn’t it?

 

Well, if you want to talk about racing, Pal, you better have your ducks in a row, because I’m tired of your bullsh-t, made up stories about people you don’t know and things you haven’t done, plain and simple. In this particular case, you’re not an insider. You don’t know what they’re having to deal with after introducing such radical changes. For you to even put forth an opinion about what those crews are having to deal with on a week-in/week-out basis is laughable. It’s not even informed enough to be insulting. Ask yourself, Pal, what kind of ego does is take to criticize guys struggling with first year of a revolutionary, new car in the middle of a 36 race season? Are you for F-king real? Because if you knew sh-t from Shinola, you’d have a little appreciation and understanding of what they’re probably going through and your only real thought would be to thank God you’re not in the middle of it, this time.

 

So, unless you want to discuss the technical points of the problems they’re having, how about you sit the F down and shut the F up on this one, OK, Snookums?



#5 Magoo

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 11:26

Tl;dr: If you don’t play nice; neither will I.

 

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Oh, Please…

 

We’ve both been on this forum for damned near 20 years. I don’t know you, but I know your persona and you mine. I figured out a long time ago you were a BS artist, but what did I care?

 

Then you p-ssed me off.

 

I bet it felt great to crawl up on that high-horse to call names and insinuate that I was among the lowest to have ever walked the planet. The righteous indignation nearly oozed through the screen. It must have been gratifying in the least.

 

Fine. It’s still a racing forum, isn’t it?

 

Well, if you want to talk about racing, Pal, you better have your ducks in a row, because I’m tired of your bullsh-t, made up stories about people you don’t know and things you haven’t done, plain and simple. In this particular case, you’re not an insider. You don’t know what they’re having to deal with after introducing such radical changes. For you to even put forth an opinion about what those crews are having to deal with on a week-in/week-out basis is laughable. It’s not even informed enough to be insulting. Ask yourself, Pal, what kind of ego does is take to criticize guys struggling with first year of a revolutionary, new car in the middle of a 36 race season? Are you for F-king real? Because if you knew sh-t from Shinola, you’d have a little appreciation and understanding of what they’re probably going through and your only real thought would be to thank God you’re not in the middle of it, this time.

 

So, unless you want to discuss the technical points of the problems they’re having, how about you sit the F down and shut the F up on this one, OK, Snookums?

 

Actually I am an insider. I was working in professional motorsports long before you, and long before I became a writer. You actually know very little about me, which is my choice. 

 

In forums I don't care to pull rank, so to speak. I prefer for all views to carry equal weight, so I keep my resume out of it. It's none of your business anyway. It's not like any of us have anything to prove here.

 

You need to stop making me your hobby. What you are doing is not how happy and productive people spend their time. 



#6 Fat Boy

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 16:34

Actually I am an insider. I was working in professional motorsports long before you, and long before I became a writer. You actually know very little about me, which is my choice. 

 

In forums I don't care to pull rank, so to speak. I prefer for all views to carry equal weight, so I keep my resume out of it. It's none of your business anyway. It's not like any of us have anything to prove here.

 

You need to stop making me your hobby. What you are doing is not how happy and productive people spend their time. 

Whatever you once were, it's apparently been long enough that you've completely forgotten what it was like. Have it your way. Maybe you're just irrelevant.

 

You 'pull rank' all the time, and it's always hot air and bluster. Usually, it's about the old stuff which you actually know, but it's the same whether you know about subject or not. Often, I just can't be bothered to care enough to comment, but you get plenty of silent eye-rolls. This particular time was so ridiculously egregious that I'm saying something. The premise of this entire thread is bullsh-t, but you started it, because you seem to feel better about yourself if you can sh-t on other people. That doesn't appear to a particularly happy or productive past time, either, does it?

And don't flatter yourself; I'm a reasonably resourceful individual. If I lack information on your personal life, it's because I'm not a stalker and I don't really care about your particulars. The only tiny sliver of your life which effects me is your persona on this forum. If that were more reasonable, we'd never have a problem.



#7 Nathan

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 16:45

Just neither of you two leave, mkay?



#8 Bob Riebe

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 16:58

Boys, don/t make me come back there!



#9 Magoo

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Posted 12 October 2022 - 20:36

Boys, don/t make me come back there!

 

 

OK! I'm good. I have been ignoring him for the most part and hope to improve my performance. 

 

On the topic of NASCAR, I haven't said anything that some smart team owners haven't already said to their people.

 

You will notice that one team stayed away from the microphones and put all four drivers in the playoffs. 


Edited by Magoo, 12 October 2022 - 20:37.


#10 gruntguru

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Posted 13 October 2022 - 03:27

I read the OP and watched some of the video. Don't have a problem with Magoo's POV.

 

As far as criticizing "those who do" - it wasn't a criticism of "what they do" - just the whinging.



#11 desmo

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Posted 13 October 2022 - 22:58

Fundamental change must be difficult for people who are used to it being mostly the same forever. Highlights the smart ones.



#12 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 31 October 2022 - 08:56

Ignoring tantrums from a couple of blokes who should know better Nascar so often makes me laugh. And we get the same b/s here with Aussie Stupidcars. 

Fact running low airpressure in tyres will destroy them. Every tyre in the world. 

Supercars do have mininum tyre pressures, 17psi. One of the DJR teams got caught yesterday with them lower in one tyres and got dqed. Far less tyre failures now!! And this has been with both Bridgestone and Dunlops.

I am NOT a fan of Badday race tyres. I have used them both on my Sports Sedan and on dirt. In the past but they do not seem to have changed.They have maybe 3 heatcycles and turn to battery case compound. And the road race stuff has such square shoulders making them VERY heavy to steer. But look,,, they are wide!!

Going on tech advice from the Dunlop guy my target pressures were aroud 32 psi. I really cannot understand running them so low as the tyre squirms everywhere and you are generating a shitload of heat in the case to get them up to pressure. And Blind Freddy can see that will kill the tyre really quick. 

Cycling the tyres through a gentle heat cycle is generally accepted to help tyres live,, full noise on new ones may be a little quicker for quali but if you have to race  on them you have created issues.

For whatever reason there is a lack of raw materials to make race tyres,, Hoosier the most common used on Sprintcars simply cannot supply tyres. Worse here in Oz. But it sems Hoosiers are delaminating regularly currently. I dont know why, just that it is happening. I do know many are hoarding all their old tyres instead of selling them off. Will make them work trying to go fast,, nothing like a new tyre.

Though very abrasive tracks as well as using too soft a compound helps no tyre in whatever discipline. 



#13 Fat Boy

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Posted 31 October 2022 - 17:08

I really cannot understand running them so low as the tyre squirms everywhere and you are generating a shitload of heat in the case to get them up to pressure.

 

You might as well ask why people run the car so low that you it wears out the jabrock. The answer is the same. Because if you don't, you lose. I only rarely care what the tire is like on the second heat cycle and couldn't give a **** about the third.

 

Do I run pressures as low as practical? Yes. Can it damage the tire? Yes. Have I lost tires doing it? Yes. Have I gotten rules written specifically because of running tires low? Yes. Have I won races with tire pressures being a big contributor? Yes. Am I going to continue as long as it's an advantage? Yes.

 

Lee, just because someone is doing something different than you doesn't mean they're wrong. They may very well just have different priorities. It's entirely possible that you're both playing your particular game correctly, but you need to appreciate that it's not the same game.


Edited by Fat Boy, 31 October 2022 - 20:48.


#14 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 November 2022 - 04:20

You might as well ask why people run the car so low that you it wears out the jabrock. The answer is the same. Because if you don't, you lose. I only rarely care what the tire is like on the second heat cycle and couldn't give a **** about the third.

 

Do I run pressures as low as practical? Yes. Can it damage the tire? Yes. Have I lost tires doing it? Yes. Have I gotten rules written specifically because of running tires low? Yes. Have I won races with tire pressures being a big contributor? Yes. Am I going to continue as long as it's an advantage? Yes.

 

Lee, just because someone is doing something different than you doesn't mean they're wrong. They may very well just have different priorities. It's entirely possible that you're both playing your particular game correctly, but you need to appreciate that it's not the same game.

Yes but they all whine and whinge about the tyres when they fail. Never their fault!!

Stupidcars here,,, the blind leading the blind. They had rotors with 50odd grooves in them. Supposedly better bite!!

Plain bloody stupid as the rotors failed and the pads wore out. Like putting them too a bastard file. Rules have them with rotors will little ticks on them now. Personally I would like about 8 grooves in them. But it is the same for all of them. 

And as for tyres that turn to rocks,, clearly you are not paying for them out of your own pocket.

And with the tyre shortages,, they will be whining if forced to reuse them!


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 05 November 2022 - 04:22.


#15 Fat Boy

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Posted 07 November 2022 - 17:06

 

clearly you are not paying for them out of your own pocket.

 

 

And with the tyre shortages,, they will be whining if forced to reuse them!

Clearly the money is not coming out of my pocket. I don't make it a habit of sponsoring the ultra-wealthy. I'll guess that on our personal vehicles, we use a very similar approach.

 

Here's another part of the equation that should not be ignored. Many tires are made with a goal of having them degrade prematurely because sanctioning bodies think that makes for better racing. Probably 1/2 of any given amount of tire deg is intentional, which is one of the reasons why whinging is so common. You test on a tire that is pretty good, then you get to the race after they 'fix it' and it's garbage. The other is that the stock car guys have to use Goodyears, which are just awful by all accounts since at least the 1990's. Notice, you don't hear the WEC guys singing any praises about Goodyear tires, either.



#16 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 November 2022 - 08:01

The Badday tyres are the worse for max 3 heat cycles. Road race and speedway. And the tyres I used [tried] in the 90s were square shoulder so making the steering very heavy for very average grip. Only tyre I have ever seen wear out the shoulder to the canvas.

I put a friends car on pole and was supposed to get the last race of the day on Sunday,, after the second race they front tyres were junk. So I did not get my drive.



#17 Fat Boy

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Posted 17 November 2022 - 00:31

So I went to Whingy-World last week.

Let’s talk about steering racks. Woodward makes a steering rack for the Ligier LMP3 that costs about $1500. It was the last rack that Tony, the founder, had a hand in. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good. With some pretty minor care and feeding, it is never a concern.

All previous stock cars have used a steering box. You run them 1500 miles, send them to Turn 1 for a rebuild, rinse, repeat. Was the solution elegant? No. Was it effective? Yes. There is a driver comfort aspect of the steering function, but it’s not a place where you were commonly looking for performance or reliability.

 

Cup cars are now using a Woodward rack which has similar external dimensions to the P3 rack, but is of a different design. When you can actually get them in your hands, they cost $4500. That’s no guarantee you can actually steer your car, though. There is literally zero chance that it’s ready from the factory. Woodward can’t hold the tolerances they need, so you have to get a bunch of different racks and then mix/match parts until you get something that has a reasonable tolerance stack-up. You can’t ‘blueprint’ anything and Woodward doesn’t have a habit de-burring much of anything, so this is another fun game. Then we get to the seals. Apparently, they’re little more than a controlled leak which can’t even remotely deal with the environment they’ve been placed. If you crank up the assist, they just die earlier. The assist itself is insufficient, so steering lock-outs on high-G tracks are now common as well…Bloody Whingers. The people I spoke to were working for a single manufacturer and they had 2-2 ½ guys working nearly full time during the season just to keep the teams supplied in functioning steering racks.

 

These types of things are apparently all over the car. It’s not that the teams can’t figure out the answer to these problems. The part of the whole deal which creates the frustration is that they’re not *allowed* to fix these problems. That is what pisses them off and rightfully so.



#18 Fat Boy

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Posted 17 November 2022 - 00:33

The Badday tyres are the worse for max 3 heat cycles.

I think they plan that, because they figured it's going to come apart on the fourth anyway...



#19 desmo

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Posted 17 November 2022 - 15:07

So I went to Whingy-World last week.

Let’s talk about steering racks. Woodward makes a steering rack for the Ligier LMP3 that costs about $1500. It was the last rack that Tony, the founder, had a hand in. It’s not perfect, but it’s pretty good. With some pretty minor care and feeding, it is never a concern.

All previous stock cars have used a steering box. You run them 1500 miles, send them to Turn 1 for a rebuild, rinse, repeat. Was the solution elegant? No. Was it effective? Yes. There is a driver comfort aspect of the steering function, but it’s not a place where you were commonly looking for performance or reliability.

 

Cup cars are now using a Woodward rack which has similar external dimensions to the P3 rack, but is of a different design. When you can actually get them in your hands, they cost $4500. That’s no guarantee you can actually steer your car, though. There is literally zero chance that it’s ready from the factory. Woodward can’t hold the tolerances they need, so you have to get a bunch of different racks and then mix/match parts until you get something that has a reasonable tolerance stack-up. You can’t ‘blueprint’ anything and Woodward doesn’t have a habit de-burring much of anything, so this is another fun game. Then we get to the seals. Apparently, they’re little more than a controlled leak which can’t even remotely deal with the environment they’ve been placed. If you crank up the assist, they just die earlier. The assist itself is insufficient, so steering lock-outs on high-G tracks are now common as well…Bloody Whingers. The people I spoke to were working for a single manufacturer and they had 2-2 ½ guys working nearly full time during the season just to keep the teams supplied in functioning steering racks.

 

These types of things are apparently all over the car. It’s not that the teams can’t figure out the answer to these problems. The part of the whole deal which creates the frustration is that they’re not *allowed* to fix these problems. That is what pisses them off and rightfully so.

When a spec chassis or tire is shit, there's no easy fix.



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#20 Fat Boy

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Posted 17 November 2022 - 16:52

When a spec chassis or tire is ****, there's no easy fix.

Fair enough, but they also control the rules, so if NASCAR wanted to make life easy, they could. These guys have already spec'd and tested the seals they need to fix the racks, but they can't run them. It's getting to the point where they're going to stick them in the racks, make it public knowledge at the beginning of the weekend, and dare NASCAR to DQ a big chunk of the field.

BTW, I'm completely jealous that you can say '****', and I can't.



#21 Magoo

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Posted 17 November 2022 - 23:38

The point is that complaining never really fixes anything, and taking shots at series personnel in public is downright counterproductive. 

 

Sure, there are problems with the new car. The previous car had a half-century of development. This generates a certain amount of inertia and encourages fixed thinking. 

 

Several teams were noteworthy for avoiding the public drama. One of them won the championship. Another put all four of its cars in the playoffs. The third, a startup team in its first full year of Cup, finished second in the championship. 



#22 Fat Boy

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 03:39

The previous car had a half-century of development. This generates a certain amount of inertia and encourages fixed thinking. 
 

You just can't not take a shot, huh?



#23 Bikr7549

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 03:51

If all recognize that there is a problem and those in charge apparently are not willing or able to address it, the teams have little choice except to call them out in it in public. If it is a safety related problem (lockout up), they are obligated to do something. 



#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 12:30

The point is that complaining never really fixes anything, and taking shots at series personnel in public is downright counterproductive. 

 

 

No when it goes public it means you've messed up badly. Especially with anything safety related.



#25 Magoo

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 17:50

You just can't not take a shot, huh?

 

Sorry, no intent to offend. I'm not saying anything the smart team owners and managers didn't tell their own people. 



#26 Magoo

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 18:03

In the garage area, a good part of the opposition to the next-gen car is driven by the fact that it will put a lot of them out of work. 

 

That's what it was designed to do (in part). It's what the series, the manufacturers, and the team owners want. 



#27 Bob Riebe

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Posted 18 November 2022 - 19:11

Bring back the Carby!



#28 Magoo

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Posted 19 November 2022 - 00:15

No when it goes public it means you've messed up badly. Especially with anything safety related.

 

When there's a legitimate safety issue, people have every right to go public. An obligation, even. There is a downside to that, however. The signal/noise ratio then goes straight to hell. 

 

That's when all the around-the-campfire stories come out. Like the one about the impact test that "killed the crash test dummy." NASCAR has a campfire that is second to none. 

 

And then the officials get to wade through all the fake problems as well as the real ones. How does that help? 



#29 Canuck

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Posted 19 November 2022 - 16:51

I have zero specific knowledge of NASCAR, but firmly believe that there are times when public discourse is the only lever available to get changes made. For reasons of ego, pride, arrogance and perhaps just being petty little shits, decision makers/ people-with-power frequently refuse to accept or acknowledge that a decision they’ve made has had poor results, and they’d rather double down on it than admit a mistake and work to a better outcome. A public calling out of that is sometimes the correct step forward as it brings on more pressure than one person or one team can lever.

That doesn’t mean it’s always the right path or that it always get results or even that it isn’t abused with petty issues.

#30 Magoo

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Posted 19 November 2022 - 21:28

I have zero specific knowledge of NASCAR, but firmly believe that there are times when public discourse is the only lever available to get changes made. For reasons of ego, pride, arrogance and perhaps just being petty little shits, decision makers/ people-with-power frequently refuse to accept or acknowledge that a decision they’ve made has had poor results, and they’d rather double down on it than admit a mistake and work to a better outcome. A public calling out of that is sometimes the correct step forward as it brings on more pressure than one person or one team can lever.

That doesn’t mean it’s always the right path or that it always get results or even that it isn’t abused with petty issues.

 

Couldn't agree more. 



#31 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 17:32

Sorry, no intent to offend. I'm not saying anything the smart team owners and managers didn't tell their own people. 

Don't apologizing to me. Apologize to the 2000 people you passive-aggressively called idiots.



#32 Bikr7549

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Posted 21 November 2022 - 19:50

Don't apologizing to me. Apologize to the 2000 people you passive-aggressively called idiots.

I agree, and have blocked posts from him, as nothing to add really and too obnoxious.


Edited by Bikr7549, 21 November 2022 - 19:50.


#33 Magoo

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Posted 24 November 2022 - 22:12

Don't apologizing to me. Apologize to the 2000 people you passive-aggressively called idiots.

 

No, I don't think so. Many are my friends and I have nothing to apologize for. You're only using this topic as an excuse to wage your juvenile vendetta. 

 

Yawn.