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BTCC 2023


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#1 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 13:11

Is it too early? If so then my apologies.

Motorbase have been eyeing a potential switch to a rear-wheel drive car. Alfa Romeo, Audi and Mercedes have been mentioned.

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#2 midgrid

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 13:58

It's probably time to move on from the Ford, which has always flattered to deceive since the NGTC model was introduced (and probably before that, as well).  Obviously it could well win the championship this season, but I'd put that down more to Sutton's brilliance than the car being as good as the BMWs or Hyundais.



#3 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 14:41

It's probably time to move on from the Ford, which has always flattered to deceive since the NGTC model was introduced (and probably before that, as well).  Obviously it could well win the championship this season, but I'd put that down more to Sutton's brilliance than the car being as good as the BMWs or Hyundais.


Well I agree with that. They've been running the Ford in various iterations since 2011. I hope Sutton can give it the perfect send-off by making it three in a row.

#4 Risil

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 14:45

I don't really have a better place to put this but for sad reasons I found myself standing yesterday in the churchyard at All Saints in Buttington, Powys. In the car park of the pub opposite was a Ford Mondeo painted in the 1999-2000 Rapid Fit colours, down to the those Auto Trader sponsored number plates they put on the door. I wonder what the story is there? I wondered if it was an original but surely that's too much to hope for. President of the Alain Menu fan club, Mid-Wales chapter, perhaps.



#5 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 14:50

I don't really have a better place to put this but for sad reasons I found myself standing yesterday in the churchyard at All Saints in Buttington, Powys. In the car park of the pub opposite was a Ford Mondeo painted in the 1999-2000 Rapid Fit colours, down to the those Auto Trader sponsored number plates they put on the door. I wonder what the story is there? I wondered if it was an original but surely that's too much to hope for. President of the Alain Menu fan club, Mid-Wales chapter, perhaps.


The Nostalgia Forum perhaps?

#6 Risil

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 14:51

Next time I'm up there I'll pop into the pub and ask.   ;)



#7 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 14:53

Wonder if Graves Motorsport and Max Coates is still possible?

#8 F1matt

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 16:06

I don't really have a better place to put this but for sad reasons I found myself standing yesterday in the churchyard at All Saints in Buttington, Powys. In the car park of the pub opposite was a Ford Mondeo painted in the 1999-2000 Rapid Fit colours, down to the those Auto Trader sponsored number plates they put on the door. I wonder what the story is there? I wondered if it was an original but surely that's too much to hope for. President of the Alain Menu fan club, Mid-Wales chapter, perhaps.

 

 

Sounds like an extract from a Alan Bennet play.



#9 Risil

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 16:17

I'll take that as a compliment, as was surely intended



#10 Burai

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 16:20

I don't really have a better place to put this but for sad reasons I found myself standing yesterday in the churchyard at All Saints in Buttington, Powys. In the car park of the pub opposite was a Ford Mondeo painted in the 1999-2000 Rapid Fit colours, down to the those Auto Trader sponsored number plates they put on the door. I wonder what the story is there? I wondered if it was an original but surely that's too much to hope for. President of the Alain Menu fan club, Mid-Wales chapter, perhaps.

 

There's a cohort of folks who buy old cars and do them up to look like BTCC machines, so it's probably one of them. They go to car shows and the like under the name "BTCC Styling".

 

They're on Facebook here: https://www.facebook...25451350976448/



#11 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 September 2022 - 16:21

I'll take that as a compliment, as was surely intended


Certainly makes for an interesting story.

#12 Kev00

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:26

Is it too early? If so then my apologies.

Motorbase have been eyeing a potential switch to a rear-wheel drive car. Alfa Romeo, Audi and Mercedes have been mentioned.


Oh I would love to see Sutton in a RWD Alfa Giulia! Thing is it would have to be red though, not yellow and blue

#13 Kev00

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:29

Can you see any regulation changes for next year to spice up the racing a bit. Whilst I don’t like too many gimmicks, the races really haven’t been as exciting as the past few seasons. The Hybrid doesn’t seem to be affecting much on track action. I think maybe the return of an option tyre should be under consideration

#14 BRG

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:31

I agree the season has been a little lack-lustre for some reason that I cannot quite put my finger on.  I am sure they could ramp up the amount of hybrid power easily enough, if that was deemed a good idea.  But please, not tyre options, unless you simply give them a choice of which tyre to use rather than making it mandatory.



#15 WonderWoman61

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 11:27

Oh I would love to see Sutton in a RWD Alfa Giulia! Thing is it would have to be red though, not yellow and blue


I'd just like to see an Alfa Romeo win a BTCC race. Alfa haven't won outside of their dominant 1994 Season.

#16 BRG

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 16:08

Yes, you shouldn't ever really have a touring car race that doesn't include at least one Alfa Romeo.



#17 WonderWoman61

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 16:18

Yes, you shouldn't ever really have a touring car race that doesn't include at least one Alfa Romeo.


Unless it's the BTCC if recent years are anything to go by.

#18 WonderWoman61

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 16:20

I just hope PMR are looking at newer machinery. That Astra is on its last legs, near enough, it's never been that good a car anyway.

#19 PayasYouRace

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 17:35

Yes, you shouldn't ever really have a touring car race that doesn't include at least one Alfa Romeo…

…on its roof.



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#20 Disgrace

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 17:45

Can you see any regulation changes for next year to spice up the racing a bit. Whilst I don’t like too many gimmicks, the races really haven’t been as exciting as the past few seasons. The Hybrid doesn’t seem to be affecting much on track action. I think maybe the return of an option tyre should be under consideration

 

Hybrid just needs to be more of a differentiator to recreate the difference in ballast. It's been clear since the opening meetings.



#21 Silverstone96

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 18:41

Every time I’ve said the racing upfront in btcc has been lacklustre I get shot down on here but I stand by it, something really hasn’t been right for the last couple of years.

Edited by Silverstone96, 30 September 2022 - 18:41.


#22 WonderWoman61

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 18:42

Every time I’ve said the racing upfront in btcc has been lacklustre I get shot down on here but I stand by it, something really hasn’t been right for the last couple of years.


I agree with you.

#23 Burtros

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 19:22

Every time I’ve said the racing upfront in btcc has been lacklustre I get shot down on here but I stand by it, something really hasn’t been right for the last couple of years.


Alright. Metaphorically speaking I’ll fetch my the gun but not point it yet!

What does lacklustre mean here?

#24 Silverstone96

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 19:46

That the racing is often good for 10th or 15th place etc but rarely do we get great racing at the front.

However the btcc seems immune from criticism as it’s often the chosen protest vote against f1.

#25 PayasYouRace

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 23:46

Every time I’ve said the racing upfront in btcc has been lacklustre I get shot down on here but I stand by it, something really hasn’t been right for the last couple of years.


I don’t see it. That is, I really haven’t noticed all that much difference in the last few years. What is it that’s lacking that was there in, say, 2017?

#26 F1Frog

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 07:34

I don’t see it. That is, I really haven’t noticed all that much difference in the last few years. What is it that’s lacking that was there in, say, 2017?

I would say the last truly amazing BTCC race was Silverstone 2020 race three. There were so many brilliant overtakes and Ash Sutton drove from the back to almost win. I think that kind of race was more common around 2017 but we just don't see it so often anymore. We have still had some great races in the last couple of years, such as the Sutton-Hill fight at Knockhill this year and Tom Oliphant's valiant defence at Brands Indy 2021, but I don't think we have quite seen a Silverstone 2020-level race in a while.

 

Unpopular opinion: the return of the option tyre would make the racing a lot more exciting, and was a key reason why 2013 was so much better than 2012.



#27 midgrid

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 09:34

The field is very close, and the races are hard-fought, but there are simply fewer performance differentiators than a few years ago:

- No success ballast
- No tyre compound variation
- RWD start performance restricted
- Slightly wider tyres, loss of Rockingham, resurfacing of Croft, Dunlop to Goodyear (?) - less FWD tyre wear

The NGTC formula, although very successful in terms of establishing a full grid of different models, means that there's less technical variety between these models than would have been the case under the S2000, BTC-T and previous technical eras.

In addition, it seems as though the series is much tougher on driving standards as well: the "push-to-pass" move is no longer tolerated, so it's easier to defend.

The hybrid system only provides a very minor differentiator which does not compensate for the above changes. It seems that everyone is on top of it and using the power boost in the same way around the lap and over the course of a race (if limited).

It's therefore easier for races to settle into a pattern after the first lap of the FWD cars trying to pass the RWD cars with colder front tyres. The interest thereafter usually lies in whether or not the RWD cars have a tyre wear advantage at the end of the race (but this is reduced from how it was a few years ago). As the field is so competitive, with minimal performance differentiators, it's hard for even championship contenders to make it from the back of the grid to the top ten.

I enjoy the racing as it is now -- close and generally clean -- but it's certainly different from previous seasons (which I also enjoyed), where the differentiatiors were so extreme that drivers were effectively having to tactically sacrifice one of the three races.

If the series wishes to revert back to the style of previous seasons, my suggestions would be:

- Restore the different tyre compounds
- Increase the hybrid boost
- Change the way the hybrid boost handicap works (could it be total time per race, rather than number of laps per race, for instance?)
- Increase the race distances somewhat
- Tweak the weekend format (there's nothing wrong with it as it is, but I think it's so familiar now that the teams have it optimised)

#28 BRG

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 09:44

Excellent comments, midgrid. 

 

A choice of tyre compounds would be positive, a return to the compulsory use of the 'wrong' tyre would not



#29 Kev00

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 10:31

It was extreme a few years ago with option tyres and heavy success ballast. But right now there’s nothing going on. I just don’t see the impact of the hybrid at all. Maybe it shows on the speed gun on or a tenth or two in lap time but it does nothing for on track battles. I would actually be in favour of an option tyre and mandatory usage. It would still be the same for everyone. A lot of motorsport has mandatory tyre regulations. And in BTCC it’s not like the slowest tyre runners just wave the other cars by like you see in other series. They fight like hell for every position they can get. I think it would be an improvement for next year

#30 BRG

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Posted 01 October 2022 - 10:38

I like motor racing, not tyre racing.  Forcing people to run a tyre that they wouldn't use otherwise is as artificial as DRS.  I dislike it in F1 even more.  For me, tyres should just be black round things  on each corner of the car and last for the race distance. 



#31 WonderWoman61

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 11:17

Tom Chilton staying at ExcelR8 for 2023.

#32 F1matt

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 14:37

Tom Chilton staying at ExcelR8 for 2023.

 

 

I am surprised at this, he is a shadow of his former self and rarely threatens the front runners, maybe he does it more for fun now. 



#33 WonderWoman61

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 15:12

I am surprised at this, he is a shadow of his former self and rarely threatens the front runners, maybe he does it more for fun now.


My sentiments exactly.

#34 Pete_f1

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 16:56

The blue lights for the hybrid deployment should be around the front and rear light cluster as well as the side window.

#35 P0inters

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 17:02

I like motor racing, not tyre racing.  Forcing people to run a tyre that they wouldn't use otherwise is as artificial as DRS.  I dislike it in F1 even more.  For me, tyres should just be black round things  on each corner of the car and last for the race distance. 

Tyre compounds are artificial but success ballast (or hybrid boosts) and reverse grids aren't? 



#36 BRG

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 18:06

Tyre compounds are artificial but success ballast (or hybrid boosts) and reverse grids aren't? 

They're all artificial of course.  So what's your point?



#37 BRG

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 18:07

The blue lights for the hybrid deployment should be around the front and rear light cluster as well as the side window.

Put a police style 'blues and twos' bar on the roof.  Then there will be no question when you are on the boost.



#38 P0inters

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Posted 08 October 2022 - 18:53

They're all artificial of course.  So what's your point?

Well I don't know why but I presumed that you were only against the different tire compounds but not the other 2. My bad if I misinterpreted. 



#39 WonderWoman61

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Posted 09 October 2022 - 14:43

Well Plato is definitely sticking to his guns and retiring despite suggestions regarding him continuing which I certainly would not have taken too seriously myself.

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#40 WonderWoman61

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Posted 09 October 2022 - 17:15

Also, I think it was mentioned more than once that Ricky Collard isn't coming back.

#41 F1matt

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Posted 09 October 2022 - 18:37

Sadly Jason Plato just faded away, no last race heroics (or histrionics) of old so he is clearly making the right decision. I remember the days when it was Plato v Neal and people wondered if the series could survive without them! How the series has evolved. 



#42 WonderWoman61

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Posted 09 October 2022 - 18:46

Sadly Jason Plato just faded away, no last race heroics (or histrionics) of old so he is clearly making the right decision. I remember the days when it was Plato v Neal and people wondered if the series could survive without them! How the series has evolved.


I agree.

I feel sorry for him failing to achieve a century of wins though. He was so close! Probably would have achieved 100 Wins were it not for the three years of toil he endured in the Subaru Levorg. Also gutted he didn't win more titles, given he was a contender pretty much every year from 2006-2015, just like Fernando Alonso in F1 really.

#43 blackhand2010

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 08:45

So, what I'm about to say is purely my thoughts, and is based upon no evidence or rumours, but...

 

Plato pointedly said that if he was offered a 3yr manufacturer deal he'd consider it...

Ricky Collard has announced his retirement, leaving the works Toyota drive free...

Toyota have been fairly anonymous in the past couple of years, despite Rory Butchers best efforts, so could do with a bigger name, if not one who's necessarily quite as quick as they were (they've got Rory for the speed).

 

I know I'm taking 2+2 and making 47, but I just thought it was interesting that JP pointedly mentioned the works drive. 



#44 Silverstone96

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 08:47

What’s to gain by Toyota hiring Plato? He’s well past his best and it’s best he goes of his own accord now.

RWD or not he wasn’t good enough at Subaru either.

#45 BRG

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 09:24

Shame about Collard quitting.  Has Plato also quit?  I hadn't noticed he was still in the BTCC.  



#46 WonderWoman61

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 10:45

So, what I'm about to say is purely my thoughts, and is based upon no evidence or rumours, but...
 
Plato pointedly said that if he was offered a 3yr manufacturer deal he'd consider it...
Ricky Collard has announced his retirement, leaving the works Toyota drive free...
Toyota have been fairly anonymous in the past couple of years, despite Rory Butchers best efforts, so could do with a bigger name, if not one who's necessarily quite as quick as they were (they've got Rory for the speed).
 
I know I'm taking 2+2 and making 47, but I just thought it was interesting that JP pointedly mentioned the works drive.


At least that confirms I heard correct about Plato and Collard.

#47 Burtros

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 11:35

It’s quite a statement from Collard if you read it.

Sometimes, just because your dad did it that doesn’t make it for you.

IMHO Plato needs to stop now. He’s not competitive anymore.

#48 WonderWoman61

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 11:42

It’s quite a statement from Collard if you read it.
Sometimes, just because your dad did it that doesn’t make it for you.
IMHO Plato needs to stop now. He’s not competitive anymore.


That's an understatement about Plato.

#49 pacificquay

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 11:53

I read Collard’s statement more as he doesn’t have the hunger his dad did, probably because his dad’s business success gave Ricky a comfortable upbringing his Rob didn’t have.



#50 F1matt

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Posted 10 October 2022 - 13:16

I read Collard’s statement more as he doesn’t have the hunger his dad did, probably because his dad’s business success gave Ricky a comfortable upbringing his Rob didn’t have.

 

 

Not sure about that, his grandfather was a racer so I don't think the family were hard up, sounds like Ricky is emigrating to Australia which has probably influenced his decision. Good luck to him.