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Perez investigation for safety car infringement


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#1 Bleu

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:34

Seeing the onboard, he left some gap before the lights went out. Not sure if it was from the lap safety car was coming in. It happened on the straight between turns 13 and 14, lights were still on when safety car was in turn 17 aka Piquet corner. 



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#2 Wuzak

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:36

Should have been resolved in the race.

 

Either he was within 10 car lengths, or he wasn't.

 

Apparently Ferrari think it was twice.



#3 RedRabbit

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:37

I always thought it was gaps between cars, not to the SC itself.

#4 Wuzak

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:37

I always thought it was gaps between cars, not to the SC itself.

 

It is both.



#5 aray

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:37

Whatever, give him next race grid penalty if he is guilty ; don't take the win.



#6 Astandahl

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:38

The race was impacted by this non decision. Should have been issued during the race whatever the outcome.

With a clear penalty, Leclerc race would have been very different. He took insane risks and almost crashed 2-3 times.

 

Embarrassing management. I knew that Masi wasn't the real problem. The FIA not only is completely awful but has also regressed in the last 10 15 years, as this kind of situation was dealt extremely quickly back in 2010 (DT to Vettel. Easy and done).


Edited by Astandahl, 02 October 2022 - 15:40.


#7 Garagista

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:39

Whatever, give him next race grid penalty if he is guilty ; don't take the win.


Don't agree. The problem is the "investigated after the race". Cmon this a black and white situation, left more than 10 cars=penalty. It is easy to investigate in my opinion!!

#8 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:40

Should have been resolved in the race.

Either he was within 10 car lengths, or he wasn't.

Apparently Ferrari think it was twice.


The problem is they NEVER, *EVER* penalise this. If you keep an eye on the drivers during formation laps and safety cars, it happens very very frequently.

#9 MJB5990

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:42

The problem is they NEVER, *EVER* penalise this. If you keep an eye on the drivers during formation laps and safety cars, it happens very very frequently.


And if we're honest, Lewis has been doing this for years. Especially on formation laps.

#10 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:44

And if we're honest, Lewis has been doing this for years. Especially on formation laps.


Exactly, Max today on the formation lap too. They all do it. Penalising on a technicality like this would be very bad.

#11 Garagista

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:45

I dont agree we usually see cars further than 10cars from the safety car before the lights off. That is mixing 2 completely diferent situations "formation laps with SC restarts".

#12 flyboym3

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:46

Would be silly to take the race win away as it was irrelevant to him winning it. Maybe grid penalty if they really have to.

#13 george1981

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:48

The problem is they NEVER, *EVER* penalise this. If you keep an eye on the drivers during formation laps and safety cars, it happens very very frequently.

 

 

They do occasionally but not consistently. The only time it's ever really looked at is when teams are trying to double stack cars for a pit stop under the safety car, which was the reason for bringing the rule in in the first place. 



#14 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:50

I dont agree we usually see cars further than 10cars from the safety car before the lights off. That is mixing 2 completely diferent situations "formation laps with SC restarts".


Leader to SC is quite rare, but 15th leaving too big a gap to 14th, or similar, happens soooo often. It's just ebb and flow of tyre warming.

Penalising Perez today would be akin to penalising Verstappen last year for overtaking LH under the SC at Abu Dhabi.

#15 BleuMurmure

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:51

Not keeping within 10 car lengths happens all over the place during SC. They warm the tyres etc. This is what RBR will argue, plus 'tricky' weather conditions.

 

But it should be enforced and penalised if necessary. Or change the rule. 10 car length is what, 50 meters? That's about 1 second gap at 150km/h


Edited by BleuMurmure, 02 October 2022 - 15:52.


#16 Clatter

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:51

I dont agree we usually see cars further than 10cars from the safety car before the lights off. That is mixing 2 completely diferent situations "formation laps with SC restarts".

 


I often see gaps which look a damn sight more than 10 car lengths during SC's.

#17 dweller23

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:52

Remember how Russell overtook Perez in France? It was due to FIA error showing VSC ending on the dashboards too early. Could be a similar scenario in Singapore with SC?



#18 Ruudbackus

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:53

I dont agree we usually see cars further than 10cars from the safety car before the lights off. That is mixing 2 completely diferent situations "formation laps with SC restarts".

I remember that i thought both ferrari-s werent within 10 car lenghts either behind the first sc going over the straight. So Perez wasn't the only one



#19 Garagista

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:54

Leader to SC is quite rare, but 15th leaving too big a gap to 14th, or similar, happens soooo often. It's just ebb and flow of tyre warming.

Penalising Perez today would be akin to penalising Verstappen last year for overtaking LH under the SC at Abu Dhabi.


Sure but the rule is there to keep the pack close together, and if the first driver reduces and then accelerates it causes a worse crocodile effect (Martin Brundles favorite expression) than if it was the 14th driver.

Saying this what I can't get my head around is the "after the race investigation". It is soo bad for the sport.

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#20 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:55

I dont agree we usually see cars further than 10cars from the safety car before the lights off. That is mixing 2 completely diferent situations "formation laps with SC restarts".


The rules are the same though, with the lead car taking the role of the SC.

#21 Ben1980

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:56

What is the rule? Is it just for the leader behind the SC or every car behind who they are behind. Is it different on formation laps?

#22 Garagista

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:58

The rules are the same though, with the lead car taking the role of the SC.


What I think is that the problem is with restarting lap, not during the normal SC period. Hamilton said that in 1st restarting.

#23 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:58

What is the rule? Is it just for the leader behind the SC or every car behind who they are behind. Is it different on formation laps?


It is the SC until lights out, then it becomes the leader.

Edited by SenorSjon, 02 October 2022 - 15:58.


#24 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 15:58

What I think is that the problem is with restarting lap, not during the normal SC period. Hamilton said that in 1st restarting.


The first restart was very messy with big gaps between the cars.

#25 Brian60

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:00

Him pulling out such an advantage over LeClerc towards the end has helped the FIA.

 

It means they can give him a time penalty which will mean absolutely nothing to the end result - Job done, rules appear to have been adhered to and nobody was helped or hindered by the stewards decision, perfect result for the FIA men in grey suits.



#26 SenorSjon

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:03

Him pulling out such an advantage over LeClerc towards the end has helped the FIA.

It means they can give him a time penalty which will mean absolutely nothing to the end result - Job done, rules appear to have been adhered to and nobody was helped or hindered by the stewards decision, perfect result for the FIA men in grey suits.


It will make for trouble in the future because they never policed it before.

#27 Primo

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:06

What speaks against Perez is that the rules for a SC restart are not difficult to learn and, especially after all the drama last season, a driver with Perez experience should know exactly what he is expected to do.



#28 ANF

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:07

Like I said in the race thread:

 


I watched both SC restarts from Leclerc's onboard (Pérez's was facing the wrong way) and the first restart was worse. He left a huge gap coming out of T13, long before the SC lights were extinguished, and the gap remained very big. That looked like a penalty to me.

On the second restart he again left a big gap coming out of T13, but he then closed the gap and was probably within ten car lengths when the SC lights were extinguished. I think he will get away with just a penalty for the first restart.


#29 hayabusasc

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:15

I think it's quite clear that Perez is getting atleast one penalty because surely if he hadn't breached the 10 car rule, they wouldn't have needed to wait till after the race. I think it is however completely unfair on both Perez and Leclerc that they were unable to race eachother with full knowledge of what that penalty will be.

#30 RA2

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:19

Once again the safety car procedure is absolute BS (not about the 10 car length), it takes them ages for the entire grid to catch up. Why cant the safety car just run the first lap slow enough for the entire field to be behind him by the end of that lap? People will say it will cool things in the car too much, but haven't we seen cars at the end of pit lane stationary in qualifying for upto 45 seconds?



#31 Ivanhoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:22

Vettel got a drive through penalty for this at Hungary 2010.

#32 jcbc3

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:30

AFAIK, the conversion penalty for a Drive-through is 30 seconds.



#33 RA2

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:32

Vettel got a drive through penalty for this at Hungary 2010.

 

 

That was because he was trying to give Weber a free pitstop.



#34 Scaboo22

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:35

Would be a sham if he was given 10 seconds. 



#35 flatoutflatbroke

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:35

I would tear up 50% of the rules and as long as it is not endangering other drives/marshalls or spectators, let the drivers get on with it.

 

On the basis that some of the rules are ludicrous and the officials don't know how to rule on them half of the time and judging and penalties, across the year is inconsistent. Who decided that 10 car lengths was an appropriate distance anyway, why not 8 or 12 or 20?

 

I would also argue that if the stewards can't decide on a penalty before the end of the race (unless it was in the last 5 laps), there shoud be no penalty applied as clearly it was not that much of an offence.



#36 smitten

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:37

Exactly, Max today on the formation lap too. They all do it. Penalising on a technicality like this would be very bad.

Hang on, there's a whole bunch of threads full of people saying "rules is rules"; see the Underpants thread or any aero thread for details.

 

Why should this rule be treated any differently?  FWIW, I'm totally on board with "rules being rules" as long as it's applied consistently.  It's the inconsistency that kills you.



#37 ANF

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:37

Vettel got a drive through penalty for this at Hungary 2010.

That was before the introduction of 5- and 10-second time penalties.

#38 RA2

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:37

The SC was doing that, and Perez pulled alongside and gave it a ‘hurry up’ signal. I’m sure the stewards will have zero time for any BS excuses from Perez justifying that. Both that, and the falling back so far, we’re purely about his own race.

 

 

When the safety car left the track the field behind had still not bunched up and there were only 15 cars



#39 Deeq

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:40

The problem™ is the stupid decision to wait after the fact/race for the penalty hence not giving Perez a "fair" chans to mitigate...Saying as Ferrari/Leclerc fan.
FiA 🤬👎

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#40 Ivanhoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:40

That was because he was trying to give Weber a free pitstop.


I don’t think the motive matters much, he was penalized for not staying within 10 car lengths behind Webber.

#41 Deeq

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:41

I don’t think the motive matters much, he was penalized for not staying within 10 car lengths behind Webber.

Exactly...and during the race, as it should be.

#42 flatoutflatbroke

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:43

Problem is also that Mylander was going very slowly in one SC period, I know this was to bunch up cars to create a biiger gap for track workers, but on a treacherous day like we had today, the loss of tyre and brake temp could cause a big incident.

 

On another note, what was the TV director doing over indulging in camera shots from behind structures that couldn't see the cars or from the helicoper looking down on an empty track?



#43 Red5ive

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:46

I think sc restarts have for some reason - all been weird this season.

\the pack doesn’t seem to bunch right up anymore - today there were seconds gaps between cars or more after the first corner.

 

perez leaving a big gap is just what mist of them seem to do now for some reason.



#44 Dutchrudder

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:47

F1 penalty system still not fit for purpose. They got rid of Masi when actually the end of last season was symptomatic of out of date penalty system.

I watch MotoGP religiously too, long lap penalty, drop 1 position, drop back behind x rider all an option for the stewards.

I remember in the 90’s there were plenty of stop go penalties, served within 3 laps, I get it’s a harsh penalty but they had no problem dishing it out back then, I’m not sure when we got rid of the drive through penalty. All the bike tracks have found a way to implement a long lap loop, even on street circuits it only needs an extra bit of paint to send someone round the outside of a corner.

In no way do I want to see Perez lose his win, but if he did the crime it’s a slam dunk let’s get it dealt with in race.

And why is it crickets on Verstappen’s extremely dangerous move on Lando under the VSC too, they were both playing silly games there it seems but to actually pass at speed while the VSC is still on makes a mockery. Maybe the restart proceedure following VSC needs looking at, too much to win or lose by taking a risk on a track that is still under caution.

#45 Dalton007

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:49

If he broke the rules, he has to be penalised. If it is two infringements, that is 10 seconds..?



#46 PlatenGlass

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:50

Normally an investigation after the race means any penalty won't affect the race in question. Not necessarily 100% but it's generally a good guide.

#47 WonderWoman61

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:52

Oh boy, way to take the shine off Perez's win, FIA and Liberty Media.

#48 Ivanhoe

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:53

Hang on, there's a whole bunch of threads full of people saying "rules is rules"; see the Underpants thread or any aero thread for details.
 
Why should this rule be treated any differently?  FWIW, I'm totally on board with "rules being rules" as long as it's applied consistently.  It's the inconsistency that kills you.

Consistent precedents of not penalizing certain infrictions create new (case law) rules.

#49 smitten

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:55

Consistent precedents of not penalizing certain infrictions create new (case law) rules.

Like driving with piercings, you mean? 

 

And since when did the stewarding of F1 pay any attention to precedent?  That's not how sport rules should be enforced - it's not a common law system.



#50 sheSgoTthElooK

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Posted 02 October 2022 - 16:59

Still no decision? Srsly?