Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Wet weather running and current FIA risk averse attitude towards rain


  • Please log in to reply
216 replies to this topic

#201 FirstnameLastname

FirstnameLastname
  • Member

  • 7,688 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 25 November 2022 - 14:10

Was listening to Gazza Anderson on the hyphen race tech podcast on the way to work earlier. He suggests that making the wet tyres bigger would work. A physically larger tyre that would raise the ride height, clear more water quicker, and produce more grip.

Advertisement

#202 Okyo

Okyo
  • Member

  • 2,842 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 25 November 2022 - 14:17

Was listening to Gazza Anderson on the hyphen race tech podcast on the way to work earlier. He suggests that making the wet tyres bigger would work. A physically larger tyre that would raise the ride height, clear more water quicker, and produce more grip.

But wider tyres (if by bigger ment taller and wider) aquaplane more easily which is the main fear of wet weather running. Which arguably is the reason why the cars kept on getting worse and worse at dealing with it as the years went on since the tires kept on getting wider. 


Edited by Okyo, 25 November 2022 - 14:21.


#203 RedRabbit

RedRabbit
  • Member

  • 3,179 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 25 November 2022 - 14:29

It’s not strange at all. They’d need to determine whether it has any worthwhile effect on spray*, and doesn’t screw up the aerodynamics of the car while doing so.

*As many have pointed out, covered wheel cars on motorways lift a lot of spray too, and much of the water is being lifted by the aerodynamic bodywork of the car.

Also, if the teams are going to submit a design, with that be outside the budget cap?


That's just F1 over complicating a straightforward solution. Wheel covers are not a new thing, and they would improve aero efficiency more than harm it. Big fat rotating tires are a headache for aero engineers, and most would welcome wheel fairings.

And of course the designs submitted to the FIA would be exempt from the cap. They can be created by a small team quite quickly.

There's no reason that 1 design should be used forever, so if it doesn't work as well as expected, develop it further.

#204 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 4,648 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 25 November 2022 - 15:30

But wider tyres (if by bigger ment taller and wider) aquaplane more easily which is the main fear of wet weather running. Which arguably is the reason why the cars kept on getting worse and worse at dealing with it as the years went on since the tires kept on getting wider.

Yeah, they need a big diameter to stop bottoming out but my understanding too is that wide = bad.

#205 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,703 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 25 November 2022 - 15:37

Nothing wrong with screwing up the aerodynamics a bit, as long as the cars can still be driven safely. It's much better to have crippled cars racing than no cars racing.

It could have very negative effects, not just for safety. The current cars are a triumph of aerodynamic design in that they can actually follow each other through fast corners. For the first time since the 1970s we reversed the dirty air trend.

 

Obviously less of an issue if they’re applied only in the wet, but remember they’re still racing at speeds which aerodynamics have a major effect, even when it’s raining.



#206 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 2,440 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 25 November 2022 - 15:38

Hopefully this will also prompt the FIA into lifting parc ferme at least on raining weekends so teams can change to a proper wet set up.

I read a MotoGP article about the differences between a wet and dry set up on a bike, and was quite surprised at how many things are changed.

It makes F1 seem primitive by comparison

 

F1 is primitive in many things. It's just a myth about being the pinnacle, when so many simple things the organization can't seem to get right
 



#207 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,703 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 25 November 2022 - 15:40

That's just F1 over complicating a straightforward solution. Wheel covers are not a new thing, and they would improve aero efficiency more than harm it. Big fat rotating tires are a headache for aero engineers, and most would welcome wheel fairings.

And of course the designs submitted to the FIA would be exempt from the cap. They can be created by a small team quite quickly.

There's no reason that 1 design should be used forever, so if it doesn't work as well as expected, develop it further.

The exposed rotating wheels are an aerodynamic headache. Hence we put thousands of hours of research into designing cars which aren’t affected by it. We’d have to be really careful not too upset that. It’s not “F1 overcomplicating a straightforward solution”. It’s accepting that highly advance machines can’t just be changed on a whim. Even “small” modifications must be evaluated fully.

 

Bear in mind that mudguard style wheel fairings are not that great aerodynamically. We’re not talking fully enclosed bodywork here.



#208 IrvTheSwerve

IrvTheSwerve
  • Member

  • 4,982 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 25 November 2022 - 18:15

The exposed rotating wheels are an aerodynamic headache. Hence we put thousands of hours of research into designing cars which aren’t affected by it. We’d have to be really careful not too upset that. It’s not “F1 overcomplicating a straightforward solution”. It’s accepting that highly advance machines can’t just be changed on a whim. Even “small” modifications must be evaluated fully.

 

Bear in mind that mudguard style wheel fairings are not that great aerodynamically. We’re not talking fully enclosed bodywork here.

I say this in a nice way, but a huge amount of F1 fans have no idea about the engineering process behind this stuff.

 

’you want this part made? Cool! You have loads of engineers and money! See you in a couple of weeks!’

 

There’s a massive amount of R&D, CFD, testing, feedback (repeat) invested into even the smallest parts, let alone a massive mudflap-style fairing at the back of the car…as much as I’ve been begging for this kind of research for years.

 

It’ll take time. 



#209 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,725 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 25 November 2022 - 18:54

 

Anyone else looked at the photo on that link - seems to me that very little of the spray is coming off the rear wheels, the majority seems to be coming out from between the tyres as a resutl of the car underbody of the car.



#210 HeadFirst

HeadFirst
  • Member

  • 6,121 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 November 2022 - 22:58

F1 is primitive in many things. It's just a myth about being the pinnacle, when so many simple things the organization can't seem to get right
 

 

It is the pinnacle, but like the peak of Mount Everest, F1 is often beset with terrible storms obscuring it's beauty.



#211 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 4,648 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 26 November 2022 - 19:54

I say this in a nice way, but a huge amount of F1 fans have no idea about the engineering process behind this stuff.

’you want this part made? Cool! You have loads of engineers and money! See you in a couple of weeks!’

There’s a massive amount of R&D, CFD, testing, feedback (repeat) invested into even the smallest parts, let alone a massive mudflap-style fairing at the back of the car…as much as I’ve been begging for this kind of research for years.

It’ll take time.

Yeah, but they really could have started this *years* ago. Non-running in the wet was already a significant problem in the late 00s.

#212 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 12,109 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 27 November 2022 - 00:07

How about a large umbrella-like device behind the car when its raining to catch all the spray of the car. Deployed with an explosive charge like the dragsters chutes.

#213 azza200

azza200
  • Member

  • 952 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 27 November 2022 - 00:11

Why not if its too wet wait a bit for it too stop and get a jet dryer out have it drive round the track a few times blowing of as much water of the track it can and get the race running quicker a simple solution. Obviously it will not work in extreme conditions 



#214 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 4,957 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 27 November 2022 - 11:44

How about a large umbrella-like device behind the car when its raining to catch all the spray of the car. Deployed with an explosive charge like the dragsters chutes.

Or an even larger umbrella over the whole circuit? They do it at Wimbledon for a low-tech sport.



#215 eibyyz

eibyyz
  • Member

  • 1,810 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 27 November 2022 - 19:15

Or an even larger umbrella over the whole circuit? They do it at Wimbledon for a low-tech sport.

 

Ganassi wanted to build an oval under a roof near Pittsburgh ~25 years ago.  I can only imagine the formaldehyde from burning methanol.



#216 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,725 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 16 December 2022 - 16:08

Don't expect a quick solution, but at least the FIA have realised that ithe problem might emanate from the floor/diffuser rather than just the tyres - FIA reveals more about F1's wet-weather wheel arch plans (autosport.com)



#217 Brian60

Brian60
  • Member

  • 579 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 16 December 2022 - 18:08

2030, the next rule change, out goes open wheel and in comes LeMans style prototype bodywork... :blush: :blush: