Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Penalty system in F1


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

Poll: Which penalty do you prefer? (59 member(s) have cast votes)

Which penalty do you prefer?

  1. Time penalties (13 votes [22.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.03%

  2. Drive through penalties (25 votes [42.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.37%

  3. Stop/go penalties (21 votes [35.59%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.59%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,151 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 04 October 2022 - 13:45

I started watching F1 in the 90s and back then the most commonly applied penalty was the 10 second stop and go penalty. It was seen as quite a harsh penalty since a driver would lose not only the 10 seconds stationary time but the time required to enter/exit the pitlane and the set speed limit. Total time lost ended up being in the region of 30 seconds. Penalty had to be served within 3 laps of being notified by the stewards. Additionally the stewards were required to investigate incidents and hand out penalties within 30 minutes of the incident occurring. It meant that track position would be lost almost immediately and it was very difficult for teams to be tactical about these penalties. 

 

In 2002, the drive through penalty was introduced in Malaysia and it became the most common penalty used. Total time lost ended being closer to 20 seconds, though it was track dependent. The same applies as above, though at some stage they got rid of the requirement to hand out penalties within 30 minutes of the incident (i imagine after Silverstone 98).

 

Then in 2014 the time penalties were introduced. The first occasion i remember it being used was Spa 2014 when Alonso's mechanics were still working on the car after the 2 minute warning before the start of the race. Penalty is applied at the pit stop or added to the race time if no more pit stops occur. Teams can be a bit more tactical with these through building up gaps to negate the effect of the penalty. Track position is not necessarily lost. It can be controversial when the penalty is issued for a pass off track. 

 

The reason i created this poll is because i see a few disgruntled fans after what happened in Singapore last race and Silverstone last year. Perhaps there is a feeling that we need to go back to harsher penalties. Let's see what the poll says!  :cool:



Advertisement

#2 Alan Lewis

Alan Lewis
  • Member

  • 866 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 04 October 2022 - 13:50

Surely the best approach will always be to have a mix of penalty formats according to circumstance.

Which is an option we can't vote for...

#3 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 6,579 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 04 October 2022 - 13:56

The poll is a bit weird- which penalty applies should depend on the offence.

 

I do think 5 sec time penalty is way too lenient for many offences we see nowadays and drive-through/stop and go penalties should be applied more often- at least the driver doesn't have half a race to build the buffer which would completely nullify the penalty, which is my biggest objection, especially for anything that gains you clear advantage like cutting the track while battling other cars.

 

Doesn't mean time penalties couldn't be applied for lesser offences (like speeding in the pit lane by 1km/h, for example), alternatively, 15/20 sec time penalty could be just as reasonable as a drive-through in some cases but what I know for certain that 5 sec time penalty is overused and too lenient in many cases.



#4 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 3,569 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 04 October 2022 - 14:08

Grid penalties? Fines? Points deductions? Disqualification? Position losses? No penalties? Automatic speed restriction penalties (as in the track limits thread)?

 

Don't think you're quite ready to take over the FIA, FortiFord.



#5 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,151 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:08

The poll is a bit weird- which penalty applies should depend on the offence.

 

I do think 5 sec time penalty is way too lenient for many offences we see nowadays and drive-through/stop and go penalties should be applied more often- at least the driver doesn't have half a race to build the buffer which would completely nullify the penalty, which is my biggest objection, especially for anything that gains you clear advantage like cutting the track while battling other cars.

 

Doesn't mean time penalties couldn't be applied for lesser offences (like speeding in the pit lane by 1km/h, for example), alternatively, 15/20 sec time penalty could be just as reasonable as a drive-through in some cases but what I know for certain that 5 sec time penalty is overused and too lenient in many cases.

 

It's a good idea, though the FIA doesn't seem willing to use the full range of penalties. The most common penalty is the 5 second penalty, and that is used for a variety of offences. The drive through penalty has not been used since Vettel got one in Baku 2017 (as far as i know). 



#6 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,151 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:19

Grid penalties? Fines? Points deductions? Disqualification? Position losses? No penalties? Automatic speed restriction penalties (as in the track limits thread)?

 

 

 

I probably should've clarified that i this thread is targeting in race penalties for infringements of the sporting regulations, which rules quite a few of the above. 

 

I wouldn't be keen on fines since it has no sporting impact. The big teams will happily take fines in order to gain a sporting advantage. 

 

Not sure about no penalties either. What happens if someone breaks the rules? 

 

The automatic speed restriction (like a computer) is something i'd love to see. 



#7 F1matt

F1matt
  • Member

  • 2,190 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:27

Automatic speed reduction sounds great till someone piles into the back of them of the drivers start moaning about how dangerous it is as their tyres and brakes go cold. 
 

I haven’t voted, the only thing I would ask race control for is consistency. 



#8 William Hunt

William Hunt
  • Member

  • 10,243 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:30

The penalties in F1 used to be either a drive through or for more serious offences: a drive through with a stop & go penalty or even a race ban. There is a reason FIA stopped doing that and switches to time penalties like 5 second penalties: because it is in the advantage of the top teams who are usually so far ahead in the race that a 5 second penalty might mean losing one or even no places but if a midfield team gets hit by a time penalty they may lose more than 1 place
It's the influence of the top teams really to bend the rules in their favour



#9 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 3,569 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:34

I probably should've clarified that i this thread is targeting in race penalties for infringements of the sporting regulations, which rules quite a few of the above. 

 

Fair point, though there's no fundamental reason why sporting and technical penalties should be different. Disqualification might be the best penalty for repeatedly pushing someone off track, for example, while grid penalties have the advantage that they don't alter the race you've seen, and points deduction was used to penalise Schumacher in 1997. Not saying they're better, but they are plausible options.



#10 KeithD68

KeithD68
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:47

The current system provides the FIA and RD with all the flexibility they will ever need in order to manipulate race results and should be left alone   ;)



#11 aportinga

aportinga
  • Member

  • 9,783 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:00

I may be confused but with the time in the pits included - are we just assuming that there will be no time penalty under what - 20 seconds?

 

Otherwise any penatly that includes running through the pits is unrealistic - full stop.



#12 FortiFord

FortiFord
  • Member

  • 2,151 posts
  • Joined: December 19

Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:02

Fair point, though there's no fundamental reason why sporting and technical penalties should be different. Disqualification might be the best penalty for repeatedly pushing someone off track, for example, while grid penalties have the advantage that they don't alter the race you've seen, and points deduction was used to penalise Schumacher in 1997. Not saying they're better, but they are plausible options.

 

The black flag is still available to use, but as far as i remember, the last time it was used was for passing the red light at pit exit (Montoya at Canada 2005?). The FIA seem unwilling to use the black flag any more even though we've had incidents which arguably warranted it in the last 10 years or so. 

 

I agree that there's no reason why a technical infringement should be an automatic DSQ whilst a sporting infringement which gains a large advantage is not a black flag. 

 

Grid penalties tend to be used for qualifying infringements or in cases where a driver has DNF'd and therefore the penalty has to be carried to the next race. I actually agree with this approach since i don't like the idea of a team/driver winning a race by breaking rules and happily taking the penalty at the next event. 



#13 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 38,053 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 04 October 2022 - 20:17

I may be confused but with the time in the pits included - are we just assuming that there will be no time penalty under what - 20 seconds?

 

Otherwise any penatly that includes running through the pits is unrealistic - full stop.

 

Maybe that's a good way to go. Too many times drivers can game the system to negate their penalties. Especially the five second ones that don't really achieve all that much unless there's a safety car near the end of the race.

 

Perhaps we don't need to go back to the days when a jump start might have been penalised by a whole minute, but the drive through or the stop and go were always effective penalties.



#14 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 5,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 October 2022 - 20:30

Regarding 5- and 10-second penalties they are always less at the end of the race since when driver takes that penalty in the pit lane, team has to be careful, so 5 seconds will probably be 5,2 seconds and so on. 

 

If there was a good way to slow cars it would be better. I see those smaller penalties similar to long lap penalty MotoGP uses and something similar could be arranged but maybe it wouldn't be so easy on street circuits. 



#15 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 23,573 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 04 October 2022 - 22:39

Regarding 5- and 10-second penalties they are always less at the end of the race since when driver takes that penalty in the pit lane, team has to be careful, so 5 seconds will probably be 5,2 seconds and so on. 

 

If there was a good way to slow cars it would be better. I see those smaller penalties similar to long lap penalty MotoGP uses and something similar could be arranged but maybe it wouldn't be so easy on street circuits. 

 

No need for a long lap. Just set a 105% laptime or something like that. Unlike MotoGP, F1 drivers have a dash which shows all sorts of split times so they should be able to hit it. 


Edited by ARTGP, 04 October 2022 - 22:40.


#16 Otaku

Otaku
  • Member

  • 1,629 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 04 October 2022 - 22:45

No penalties.



#17 Primo

Primo
  • Member

  • 1,026 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 05 October 2022 - 00:31

I vote "other". I like the long lap penalties they have in MotoGP. Brilliant.
Stop & Go are way to severe for almost all infringements on track. 



#18 Squeed

Squeed
  • Member

  • 2,544 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 05 October 2022 - 00:44

To me, the possible answers don't make sense.   It's like asking "what's the best prison sentence?"  It depends on the crime. 



#19 MattK9

MattK9
  • Member

  • 606 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:35

Voted for the time penalties, although I think that the long lap penalty in MotoGP works very well for minor penalties



Advertisement

#20 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 3,569 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:39

To me, the possible answers don't make sense.   It's like asking "what's the best prison sentence?"  It depends on the crime. 

Ah, prison sentences! Why didn't we think of that one? Drop more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car and you spend 2 hours in a windowless cell with David Croft's jokes pumped through a speaker.



#21 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 22,295 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:58

Ah, prison sentences! Why didn't we think of that one? Drop more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car and you spend 2 hours in a windowless cell with David Croft's jokes pumped through a speaker.


I don't think the Geneva convention would allow that.

#22 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,976 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:11

No need for a long lap. Just set a 105% laptime or something like that. Unlike MotoGP, F1 drivers have a dash which shows all sorts of split times so they should be able to hit it. 

 

MotoGP has a dash. The transmissions are even aired on the live feed. ;)

 

The MotoGP long lap is a bit weird. Last weekend it was a very long one, but on other tracks it barely costs time.

 

The 10s S&G, S&G and DT were deemed too harsh for minor infringments. What I found odd it still is a S&G with crew working on the car (Williams earlier this year when a mechanic pushed the car backwards in the 2 minute window) while the offense was pretty minor. 



#23 Heyli

Heyli
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,909 posts
  • Joined: May 17

Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:12

I am not a big fan of the time penalties, because the outcome of a time penalty can be very different depending on the situation in the race. A 5 second penalty in 1 is absoutely meaningless, whereas in another it could be 2-3 positions (in case of a safety car it can be a lot more, which happens quite often in the feeder series). 

 

I would probably prefer grid penalties,  because those are generally speaking more fair. The downside obviously being that they would always then apply just for the next race, so you will still need some penalties to also have an affect in the current race.

 

A style more similar to football somehow perhaps, where yellow cards generally do not necessarily have an affect on the current game, but the option of a red card is always still there. We want to avoid people making a minor foul for the race lead, if they know the penalty would only be in the next race anyway...

 

So that is a lot of words, with not so many concrete ideas I'm afraid, but the main conclusion is I think the small time penalties generally suck. Bigger time penalties would of course also be a solution, but then it will be even more difficult to penalise small infringements...



#24 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 5,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:22

The 10s S&G, S&G and DT were deemed too harsh for minor infringments. What I found odd it still is a S&G with crew working on the car (Williams earlier this year when a mechanic pushed the car backwards in the 2 minute window) while the offense was pretty minor.


The big issue with that breach is that I believe penalty is pit lane start, which Williams didn't comply.

#25 Ragingjamaican

Ragingjamaican
  • Member

  • 928 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:37

I think if time penalties are going to be given, the stewards need to decide within 5-15 minutes after reviewing the incident so the driver who is penalised doesn't away with it.

 

Too many times we are seeing time penalties applied near the end of the race or after when the driver has built a buffer or ran their race and doesn't really affect them. A 5s penalty is due too lenient, this only really ever hampers those fighting for 8th or below,

 

Bring back drive through penalties, increase time penalties to 10s, 3 place grid drop should be increased to 5 minimum, review and apply the punishment quicker, rather than take an age.



#26 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 15,976 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:50

Grid penalties don't work at the rear, like time penalties usually don't work at the front.

 

Notorious example:

https://www.formula1...g5yj0nlkmd.html

 

Leads by 6 seconds and two 5s penalties would bring him down to 3rd. Then a SC happens and the race finishes under yellow. Classified 17th(!)


Edited by SenorSjon, 05 October 2022 - 10:50.


#27 Squeed

Squeed
  • Member

  • 2,544 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 05 October 2022 - 15:06

Ah, prison sentences! Why didn't we think of that one? Drop more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car and you spend 2 hours in a windowless cell with David Croft's jokes pumped through a speaker.

 

Dear God, what kind of beasts do you think we are?



#28 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 9,453 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 05 October 2022 - 16:11

There is a place for all three of these penalties depending on the offence. Time penalties are usually best but drive-thru and stop-go penalties can still be applied for more serious infringements.



#29 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 14,951 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 October 2022 - 16:28

I think "give up places" should be an option too - the driver has to let 1 or more cars pass them within the next lap (and/or lose DRS for a lap too)



#30 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 02 November 2022 - 16:07

I am not a big fan of the time penalties, because the outcome of a time penalty can be very different depending on the situation in the race. A 5 second penalty in 1 is absoutely meaningless, whereas in another it could be 2-3 positions (in case of a safety car it can be a lot more, which happens quite often in the feeder series). 

 

I would probably prefer grid penalties,  because those are generally speaking more fair. The downside obviously being that they would always then apply just for the next race, so you will still need some penalties to also have an affect in the current race.

I'm with you, Heyli. I'm a huge Daniel Ricciardo fan and loved watching the way he drove after that 10s penalty, but the penalty was 100% deserved, and it was too lenient imho. It was an extremely ambitious & poorly executed move, esp at that part of the track.
 
He was already 12-13 seconds ahead of both Tsunoda and Vettel immediately after he punted TSU, ending his race, and was 11.6 seconds ahead of Albon when the message came out that the incident was under investigation. He was 12s ahead when the 10s penalty was announced. Even if they'd somehow applied it immediately, he wouldn't even have lost a position. He was ahead of Ocon by 12s at the end, so he lost 0 positions because of the penalty. So basically, he got no penalty at all, just like George Russell last week, and countless others in the past. He was in P12 when he made the move, and finished P7. Even if he'd lost a position with the penalty, he would have still been P8.
 
What I've said for years is that boneheaded moves like that, esp when they end someone's race, should result in very harsh punishment. Perhaps the best solution of all the ones I've seen is grid spot penalties in the final race classification. If you can assess a grid penalty for the next race (a la Stroll and Latifi in Austin), then why can't you assess one for the race during which the infraction actually occured? In this case, a 5 spot drop would have set RIC back to P12, which is at least a big deterrent to bad driving behavior, and is a definitive penalty that can't be skirted. And if a guy can get a 5 spot grid penalty in the next race for causing a collision (a la Latifi in Austin, penalized at Mexico City), then why shouldn't a similar penalty instead be possible in the same race? I've never heard a good answer for that one. Ricciardo's Mexico City penalty looks like nothing at all compared to Latifi's for the same offense.
 
If they continue with these light penalties in these stronger cars with so much paved runoff, driving standards are just going to get even worse. If they were to institute and enforce much harsher penalties, driving standards would clean up very quickly. As long as these guys can punt someone out of the way and get a time penalty, then go on to gain more positions, some of them are going to do it.

Edited by AustinF1, 02 November 2022 - 17:29.


#31 registered

registered
  • Member

  • 1,815 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 03 November 2022 - 11:14

I think for some cases it should be "drop behind now" penalty instead of applied on the final classification. For example when Gasly on Stroll, it restores the "fair" order.

MotoGP used to issue "drop 1 place" penalties (sometimes more places) but they seem to have stopped doing it in favour of the long lap pentalty.



#32 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 3,569 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 03 November 2022 - 11:24

I think for some cases it should be "drop behind now" penalty instead of applied on the final classification.

Which has the great merit that we are watching the actual race order.



#33 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 6,579 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 03 November 2022 - 13:41

What I've said for years is that boneheaded moves like that, esp when they end someone's race, should result in very harsh punishment. Perhaps the best solution of all the ones I've seen is grid spot penalties in the final race classification. If you can assess a grid penalty for the next race (a la Stroll and Latifi in Austin), then why can't you assess one for the race during which the infraction actually occured? In this case, a 5 spot drop would have set RIC back to P12, which is at least a big deterrent to bad driving behavior, and is a definitive penalty that can't be skirted. And if a guy can get a 5 spot grid penalty in the next race for causing a collision (a la Latifi in Austin, penalized at Mexico City), then why shouldn't a similar penalty instead be possible in the same race? I've never heard a good answer for that one. Ricciardo's Mexico City penalty looks like nothing at all compared to Latifi's for the same offense.

I just prefer time/drive-through/stop&go penalties to this, I mean this is racing after all, why not give the offender a chance to minimise the impact of the penalty through some very good racing, I think that's good for the show. Just make sure it's so difficult nobody tries to be in that situation on purpose.

 

The main issue is that the penalties are too lenient. 5 secs time penalty is laughable, 10 secs time penalty is not very much either. Why not go back to what it was some 15 years ago- a moderate offence- a drive through, a severe offence- a 10 seconds stop&go. It was working just fine but they cowardly gave up on that because some people complained that the penalties actually had an impact and now we have a penalty system that actually makes it beneficial to break rules every now and then. What an absurd situation we're in.

 

The one suggestion I liked is that it would be possible to for drivers to be given a time penalty at the start of the race. Now we only have grid penalties but for drivers at the back they matter very little and for drivers in top cars it's often easy to come back from them very quickly.



#34 IrvTheSwerve

IrvTheSwerve
  • Member

  • 2,879 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 03 November 2022 - 13:57

Obviously there are some cons to this, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been any mention of disabling DRS as some form of penalty.



#35 IrvTheSwerve

IrvTheSwerve
  • Member

  • 2,879 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 03 November 2022 - 13:59

 

If they continue with these light penalties in these stronger cars with so much paved runoff, driving standards are just going to get even worse. If they were to institute and enforce much harsher penalties, driving standards would clean up very quickly. As long as these guys can punt someone out of the way and get a time penalty, then go on to gain more positions, some of them are going to do it.

 

 

Maybe that's what they want - poorer driving standards. This means more crashes, more social media material, more conversation, more $$$, etc...



#36 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 03 November 2022 - 16:48

I think for some cases it should be "drop behind now" penalty instead of applied on the final classification. For example when Gasly on Stroll, it restores the "fair" order.

MotoGP used to issue "drop 1 place" penalties (sometimes more places) but they seem to have stopped doing it in favour of the long lap pentalty.

If both cars survive, and the disadvantaged car doesn't lose more spots than the offending car, ok. Or how about this ... drop behind the car you just punted even if they've lost 3 spots because you punted them.



#37 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 03 November 2022 - 17:01

I just prefer time/drive-through/stop&go penalties to this, I mean this is racing after all, why not give the offender a chance to minimise the impact of the penalty through some very good racing, I think that's good for the show. Just make sure it's so difficult nobody tries to be in that situation on purpose.

 

The main issue is that the penalties are too lenient. 5 secs time penalty is laughable, 10 secs time penalty is not very much either. Why not go back to what it was some 15 years ago- a moderate offence- a drive through, a severe offence- a 10 seconds stop&go. It was working just fine but they cowardly gave up on that because some people complained that the penalties actually had an impact and now we have a penalty system that actually makes it beneficial to break rules every now and then. What an absurd situation we're in.

 

The one suggestion I liked is that it would be possible to for drivers to be given a time penalty at the start of the race. Now we only have grid penalties but for drivers at the back they matter very little and for drivers in top cars it's often easy to come back from them very quickly.

Yes it's racing after all, and people want to be lenient, but if we continue with these slaps on the wrists of drivers making boneheaded moves and taking people out in the process, it's just going to continue, esp with these safer cars and paved runoffs all over the place. There will be little deterrent to these kinds of moves. I'm all for your idea of a more meaningful penalty like a drivethrough or a 10s stop and go, no pit stop allowed. I've also pushed for this in the past. The penalty doesn't have to be a grid drop, but it needs to be far more punitive than the 5 or 10s penalties we see now. They're a joke. That's the main point that I'm trying to get across.

 

Look at Daniel's Mexico penalty. He was already ahead by more than 10s over the closest car behind him right after the incident and when he went under investigation. The 10s penalty he got meant nothing to him. In effect, it wasn't a penalty at all, just as we see so often with such time penalties. Meanwhile, Daniel goes on to P7 while Yuki sits in the garage, watching. If these guys know they can punt someone who's holding them up and only get a slap on the wrist, many of them are going to do it. 

 

Look at George in Austin. He torpedos (Georpedos?) the polesitter out of the race on L1T1, gets a 5s penalty and drops 1 spot after the pitstops shake out, and only then because of the SC. He goes on to finish P5 in the race. Brundle said immediately that the penalty was too light. 

 

These are slaps on the wrists. Gasly dropped too far behind the SC for a few seconds and got the same penalty. LOL. Albon holds position after overtaking off the track and gets 5 seconds + 1 point (worse penalty than Russell's), and there's plenty more bizarre penalty nonsense, even from just that race.

 
It's just bizarre.

 

After practically every race we hear people talking about slipping driving standards. Well, it's not going to get better until the drivers have some significant, meaningful incentive to drive to a higher standard. Keep doling out insignificant penalties, and you'll keep seeing this kind of nonsense.


Edited by AustinF1, 03 November 2022 - 17:28.


#38 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 03 November 2022 - 17:01

Maybe that's what they want - poorer driving standards. This means more crashes, more social media material, more conversation, more $$$, etc...

Yeah, you might be onto something there. It seems like that's the direction we're headed.



#39 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 14,951 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 November 2022 - 21:56

If both cars survive, and the disadvantaged car doesn't lose more spots than the offending car, ok. Or how about this ... drop behind the car you just punted even if they've lost 3 spots because you punted them.

 

And if the car is put out of the race, do you still drop behind them (i.e. out of the race and positioned lower than them in the final results)?

 

BTW - if so, I like it very much. It solves the dilemma of penalties taking into account the outcome of the offence (in this case, it does not take into account the outcome, it simply dictates that, in all circumstances, you must drop behind the other car).


Edited by pdac, 03 November 2022 - 21:58.


Advertisement

#40 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 03 November 2022 - 22:24

And if the car is put out of the race, do you still drop behind them (i.e. out of the race and positioned lower than them in the final results)?

 

BTW - if so, I like it very much. It solves the dilemma of penalties taking into account the outcome of the offence (in this case, it does not take into account the outcome, it simply dictates that, in all circumstances, you must drop behind the other car).

That's what I had in mind, yeah. Probably not a popular opinion, but oh well. These guys need a real disincentive to this crap, or they'll just do it more and more, just as we saw with track limits.



#41 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 14 November 2022 - 04:34

So now Danny has been handed a 3 spot grid drop for Abu Dhabi, and 2 penalty points. Same penalty Stroll got after trying to kill Alonso in Austin.

 

What a joke.



#42 Clrnc

Clrnc
  • Member

  • 5,255 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 14 November 2022 - 06:23

What the hell? This penalty system is a joke

#43 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 5,397 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 November 2022 - 06:56

While accident caused by Stroll was certainly more dangerous, it is notable that stewards deemed him only predominantly to blame while Ricciardo was fully to blame in Brazil. And I also noticed that in Brazilian GP incidents, Verstappen was predominantly to blame and Norris fully to blame.
 
So I decided to look at each collision decision from this year. Seemingly whether driver was fully or predominantly to blame doesn't make a difference. Looking at the wording the most ridiculous thing is that Latifi got 5 grid spots for being predominantly to blame while some driver fully to blame got smaller penalty.
 
 
Race - Drivers (culprit mentioned first) - fully or predominantly blamed - penalty
 
Bahrain - Ocon/Schumacher - not determined - 5 seconds
Saudi Arabia - Albon/Stroll - predominantly - 3 grid spots
Australia - Stroll/Latifi - predominantly - 3 grid spots
Miami - Alonso/Gasly - not determined - 5 seconds
Miami - Magnussen/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Spain - Gasly/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Monaco - Ocon/Hamilton - not determined - 5 seconds
Britain - Tsunoda/Gasly - not determined - 5 seconds
Austria - Gasly/Vettel - wholly - 5 seconds
Austria - Russell/Perez - wholly - 5 seconds
France - Ocon/Tsunoda - predominantly - 5 seconds
Hungary - Ricciardo/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Singapore - Latifi/Zhou - predominantly - 5 grid spots
USA - Russell/Sainz - wholly - 5 seconds
USA - Stroll/Alonso - predominantly - 3 grid spots
USA - Latifi/Schumacher - not determined - 5 seconds
Mexico - Ricciardo/Tsunoda - wholly - 10 seconds
Brazil - Alonso/Ocon - wholly - 5 seconds
Brazil - Ricciardo/Magnussen - wholly - 3 grid spots
Brazil - Verstappen/Hamilton - predominantly - 5 seconds
Brazil - Norris/Leclerc - wholly - 5 seconds


#44 Roadhouse

Roadhouse
  • Member

  • 1,974 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 14 November 2022 - 08:24

Note to self: If you take someone out of the race make sure your own car survives long enough to serve your time penalty.



#45 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 14 November 2022 - 17:42

 

While accident caused by Stroll was certainly more dangerous, it is notable that stewards deemed him only predominantly to blame while Ricciardo was fully to blame in Brazil. And I also noticed that in Brazilian GP incidents, Verstappen was predominantly to blame and Norris fully to blame.
 
So I decided to look at each collision decision from this year. Seemingly whether driver was fully or predominantly to blame doesn't make a difference. Looking at the wording the most ridiculous thing is that Latifi got 5 grid spots for being predominantly to blame while some driver fully to blame got smaller penalty.
 
 
Race - Drivers (culprit mentioned first) - fully or predominantly blamed - penalty
 
Bahrain - Ocon/Schumacher - not determined - 5 seconds
Saudi Arabia - Albon/Stroll - predominantly - 3 grid spots
Australia - Stroll/Latifi - predominantly - 3 grid spots
Miami - Alonso/Gasly - not determined - 5 seconds
Miami - Magnussen/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Spain - Gasly/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Monaco - Ocon/Hamilton - not determined - 5 seconds
Britain - Tsunoda/Gasly - not determined - 5 seconds
Austria - Gasly/Vettel - wholly - 5 seconds
Austria - Russell/Perez - wholly - 5 seconds
France - Ocon/Tsunoda - predominantly - 5 seconds
Hungary - Ricciardo/Stroll - wholly - 5 seconds
Singapore - Latifi/Zhou - predominantly - 5 grid spots
USA - Russell/Sainz - wholly - 5 seconds
USA - Stroll/Alonso - predominantly - 3 grid spots
USA - Latifi/Schumacher - not determined - 5 seconds
Mexico - Ricciardo/Tsunoda - wholly - 10 seconds
Brazil - Alonso/Ocon - wholly - 5 seconds
Brazil - Ricciardo/Magnussen - wholly - 3 grid spots
Brazil - Verstappen/Hamilton - predominantly - 5 seconds
Brazil - Norris/Leclerc - wholly - 5 seconds

 

Yep. It's utterly mind-boggling.

 

This is just exhibit #87,147,964,231 of why F1 needs dedicated, well-trained, periodically evaluated, traveling stewards,, using a defined structure to consistently enforce the rules and levy penalties. Right now it's just a free-for-all, with drivers making crazy moves left and right, and stewards' decisions varying wildly from one race to the next.