39 replies to this topic

[Rediscoveryx]

As usual during the Suzuka weekend, everyone is raving about how excellent the circuit is, and what a unique challenge it poses. It is by many considered to be the premier circuit on the calendar. It is also the only figure 8 type circuit (ever?) used in Grand Prix racing.

Is this merely a coincidence, or does using that particular configuration philisophy enable benefits that ought to be utilized more often by circuit designers?

One obvious benefit is that it allows more or less straight sections to run diagonally through the alloted area, enabling (in theory at least) an overall faster configuration. But there ought to be drawbacks as well (e.g limitations on run-off areas).

So, what’s the verdict? Should this configuration type be considered more often? Or is merely a novelty that just happens to work at Suzuka but which would have limited benefits when designing other circuits?

[Bloggsworth]

No.

[Collombin]

It is also the only figure 8 type circuit (ever?) used in Grand Prix racing

Would you count Monza in the years it used the banking in this category?

[Rediscoveryx]

Would you count Monza in the years it used the banking in this category?

Umm… probably yes.

[Ali_G]

Would you count Monza in the years it used the banking in this category?

No. At most circuits, cars either do a full clockwise or full anti clockwise rotation. At Suzuka, the cars don’t rotate at all after doing a lap as it’s figure if 8.

At Monza, cars would have rotated twice in a clockwise manner. Monza would be the same as Suzuka, only if the ran the banking in an anti-clockwise direction.

Edited by Ali_G, 08 October 2022 - 13:05.

[Ali_G]

Umm… probably yes.

No. Old Monza was a double clockwise circuit.

The cross over point at Suzuka links a clockwise and an anti clockwise circuit together to form at figure of 8 circuit. The crossover at Monza linked 2 clockwise circuits together to form a double clockwise circuit.

Edited by Ali_G, 08 October 2022 - 13:11.

[ANF]

Can't be a coincidence.

 

[JimmyClark]

Don't forget this was the intended Cancun 2006 circuit...

 

[FullOppositeLock]

^ that has obvious potential. It’s nor just the track configuration. The F1 technical regulations also need another massive overhaul.

Edit: the video obviously

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 08 October 2022 - 13:30.

[noriaki]

Hugenholz initially designed not only one, but *three* cross-overs for Suzuka!

This was due to the site's limitations and the many surrounding rice fields, the figure of 8 design - apparently - required the least amount of land to be moved.

[Collombin]

Monza would be the same as Suzuka, only if the ran the banking in an anti-clockwise direction.

I'm guessing that only ever happened for Monzanapolis, which is no good because they didn't race on the rest of the circuit.

Ok, so not technically a figure of 8 then, but if the appeal of a figure of 8 is cars passing over each other then at least it meets that criterion.

[PayasYouRace]

Would you count Monza in the years it used the banking in this category?

 

That's what is known as an inverted figure of 8. In a normal figure of 8, each car rotates in over the sum of 0 degrees, A track like Monza's full circuit would see each car rotate over the sum if 720 degrees over the course of a lap.

 

Anyone who had a Scalextric set would be familiar with these concepts, and why, when lacking crossovers, the figure of 8 is the fairest circuit for both lanes,

[Collombin]

In my Scalextric days, racing fairly was the last thing on my mind.

[RedRabbit]

Motegi is also a figure of 8 isn't it? I think it's more about limiting the overall area of the circuit than anything else while still keeping the type of corner sequences it has.

[ANF]

Suzuka was built as a Honda test track, wasn't it? Did Hugenholz even have racing in mind when he designed it?

[PayasYouRace]

As usual during the Suzuka weekend, everyone is raving about how excellent the circuit is, and what a unique challenge it poses. It is by many considered to be the premier circuit on the calendar. It is also the only figure 8 type circuit (ever?) used in Grand Prix racing.

Is this merely a coincidence, or does using that particular configuration philisophy enable benefits that ought to be utilized more often by circuit designers?

One obvious benefit is that it allows more or less straight sections to run diagonally through the alloted area, enabling (in theory at least) an overall faster configuration. But there ought to be drawbacks as well (e.g limitations on run-off areas).

So, what’s the verdict? Should this configuration type be considered more often? Or is merely a novelty that just happens to work at Suzuka but which would have limited benefits when designing other circuits?

 

When you look at the land Suzuka was built on, the layout fits the topography but it isn't necessarily the obvious way to do it. It would be fairly simple to have a layout that turns left after Degner, goes slightly up hill to meet the straight to Spoon, then follow round to the Hairpin before a left handed, uphill hairpin of sorts would take you back to where 130R is. The earthworks would have been slightly different during construction.

 

I think figure of 8 layouts are interesting and bring certain characteristics like more equal wear on each side of the car. There have been a few other 8s like Oran Park in Australia. I think they're generally avoided just because the topography needed for a convenient crossover isn't always there. There are also safety consideration around the crossover. Not a huge problem at Suzuka but it's something you'd have to take into account when designing.

[PayasYouRace]

Motegi is also a figure of 8 isn't it? I think it's more about limiting the overall area of the circuit than anything else while still keeping the type of corner sequences it has.

 

Not its two overlaid circuits with no connection between them. The oval is anti-clockwise and is overlaid on the road course, which is clockwise.

[Risil]

Motegi is also a figure of 8 isn't it? I think it's more about limiting the overall area of the circuit than anything else while still keeping the type of corner sequences it has.

Motegi has a point where the oval crosses over the road course but I don't think there's a combined layout that includes the over and the under. In fact I don't even know if the oval is still in operation.

[Risil]

Surprised no one's mentioned the Abu Dhabi pit lane yet.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Surprised no one's mentioned the Abu Dhabi pit lane yet.

Maybe it's because you can never, ever, put Abu Dhabi and Suzuka in the same sentence!

[IrvTheSwerve]

Maybe a stupid question but are there any circuits in the world that have a double crossover, a bit like that Cancun track design?

[Ali_G]

Maybe a stupid question but are there any circuits in the world that have a double crossover, a bit like that Cancun track design?

Weirdly the double cross over in Cancun’s design means it’s just a standard clockwise circuit.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I know this would never happen, but I'd love to see a point-to-point race. Can you imagine an hour and a half race with these cars blasting through roads and countryside. *wakes up*

[RedRabbit]

Motegi has a point where the oval crosses over the road course but I don't think there's a combined layout that includes the over and the under. In fact I don't even know if the oval is still in operation.

Ah, yes, that's right. Honda owns Motegi, so maybe the oval is used for testing.

[RedRabbit]

Not its two overlaid circuits with no connection between them. The oval is anti-clockwise and is overlaid on the road course, which is clockwise.

Thanks 👍 🙂 I was to lazy to look it up

[Rob G]

It is also the only figure 8 type circuit (ever?) used in Grand Prix racing.

 

This wasn't a circuit used for major Grands Prix, but the Circuito di Lucca had a small figure 8 section at the far end of the track. It was the venue for two races for Grand Prix cars, the 1935 and 1936 Coppa Edda Ciano races, both won in Alfa Romeos entered by Scuderia Ferrari.

[JimmyClark]

Hugenholz initially designed not only one, but *three* cross-overs for Suzuka!

This was due to the site's limitations and the many surrounding rice fields, the figure of 8 design - apparently - required the least amount of land to be moved.

Ah yes thanks I had totally forgotten there were some quite crazy designs for Suzuka initially. Here's some of the early workings courtesy of Google...

[Sterzo]

I know this would never happen, but I'd love to see a point-to-point race. Can you imagine an hour and a half race with these cars blasting through roads and countryside. *wakes up*

Paris-Vienna would be good. It was brilliant 120 years ago.

 

As for figure of eight circuits, how else do you get a decent lap length in the Scalextric track on your bed?

[JimmyClark]

Personally I think they should do two laps of the M25.

[NewMrMe]

A  couple of other figure of 8 circuits I can think of.

 

Fiorano - Ferrari's test circuit.

Oran Park - A former Australian circuit on the outskirts of Sydney. It was closed though in 2010 and used for new housing development.

[chdphd]

Ahvenisto Race Circuit in Finland has a crossover

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...to_Race_Circuit

[Jim Thurman]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Ahvenisto in Finland:

https://www.racingci.../ahvenisto.html

 

EDIT: Timing! 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 08 October 2022 - 16:45.

[noikeee]

Hugenholz initially designed not only one, but *three* cross-overs for Suzuka!

This was due to the site's limitations and the many surrounding rice fields, the figure of 8 design - apparently - required the least amount of land to be moved.

 

So that's the secret if we want more figure 8 circuits.

 

Plant more rice.

[BRG]

Personally I think they should do two laps of the M25.

And have Red Bull DSQ'd for not paying the Dartford Crossing toll

[jcbc3]

Would have been fun to run this one:

 

Copenhagen proposed street track:

Spoiler

 

The cross over/under:

Spoiler

 

Lots of haybales need!

[PayasYouRace]

The Bilbao street circuit, of World Series by Renault fame, was a figure of 8 too.

 

 

[JimmyClark]

Would have been fun to run this one:

Copenhagen proposed street track:

Spoiler

The cross over/under:

Spoiler

Lots of haybales need!

This really was one of the weirdest proposals of recent years. I couldn't see any reason why the Danish government or the local population would want this, yet it seemed to be taken quite seriously.

It would have been an awesome venue for a race weekend though; Copenhagen is such a classy city. But an F1 race really wouldn't have been a "fit".

[maximilian]

Can't be a coincidence.

 

 

This is SO much more entertaining than F1 

[mclarensmps]

Ah yes thanks I had totally forgotten there were some quite crazy designs for Suzuka initially. Here's some of the early workings courtesy of Google...

That first layout, while it wouldn't improve racing, would be an interesting layout to run

[Bleu]

That first layout, while it wouldn't improve racing, would be an interesting layout to run

 

Very steep downhill at one crossover. Probably close to Loews section in Monaco.