314 replies to this topic

[Risil]

What was the tractor doing on the circuit? Should Gasly have taken more care? Should he have been informed there was a vehicle on the circuit? (Was he?) Do the conditions mean extra care should've been taken?

Discuss.

[registered]

Near miss? Might be a tad dramatic for what it was

[SophieB]

The key thing for me was summed up by Button:
 
 

Again, Button being mild but so hugely damning.
 
”What surprises me is that we haven’t heard anything from the FIA in regards to the tractor. You know, it’s nice that they put out the information about him speeding under the red flag which you obviously shouldn’t be doing but it would be nice to have a comment from them about the tractor on track.”

very poor comms, comes across like race control trying to deflect from their own error of judgement by over emphasising the driver judgement error.

[pRy]

I agree with Horner. Full investigation needed. And hopefully his fellow drivers back Gasly up and prevent the FIA from trying to deflect.

[JeePee]

There was a tractor on track. You know what was also there?

Marshalls
Sainz
Sainz his car
A damaged wall
Debris

And Gasly going full throttle.

[ensign14]

For the FIA to blame Gasly for going too fast also requires the FIA to explain why they do not actually enforce the rules on waved yellows.

[Laster]

The FIA should have waited to bring a tractor on track until all cars were caught up behind the safety car. Them saying there was a red flag was nonsense, Gasly had half a second to acknowledge that.

However that doesn’t take away from Gasly being stupid for driving at high speed around an area of track with stranded car on it. He knew the safety car was out, he knew there was a crash there, he knew there could be marshalls, but he drove through it at a silly speed.

So yeah both the FIA and Gasly need a slap for how they handled it.

[BoDarvelle]

For the FIA to blame Gasly for going too fast also requires the FIA to explain why they do not actually enforce the rules on waved yellows.

 

I'm reminded of Imola. Didn't Max get pole while supposedly "slowing" through a yellow?

 

I recall him partially lifting for about a half second. It was laughable whatever the result.

 

They certainly don't slow to the point they could stop if need be.

[Clrnc]

Even without red flag, if its under SC condition can Gasly being going at 250km there legally?

Other than that question the tractor there is obviously not right no matter what

[dweller23]

From the other thread, some minisector data from the second lap of the race that was already under the SC. Only one person improved in the minisector where Sainz' car was stranded.

 

[Ellios]

Placing heavy machinery on a racing track, given the past experiences especially at this track in the conditions present at the time is really yolo'ing it.

 

https://streamable.com/3bf5nv

 

Is shouldn't have been there at any point until the race had been stopped. 

 

Gasly speed in catching up the train seems to excessive at the time of posting and deserves a penalty.

 

It's pretty crazy really, seems like they learnt a lot and nothing at all. 

Edited by Ellios, 09 October 2022 - 08:47.

[Ragamuffin]

Poor form from the FIA with heaping all the blame on Gasly, but they also had a point with his excessive speed - sad as it is to say, and by god nobody on sky was ever going to mention it, but it was huge contributing factor in Bianchi's death.

[Mat13]

There’s no place for a tractor/loading shovel/telehandler any where near a live track, especially as the race was red flagged- there was no rush to move that car. Personally it doesn’t matter to me what the weather conditions are, I was pissed off to see it in Monza as well.

[Ellios]

Seems like the plant machinery was deployed earlier, with a number of drivers passing it. 

 

Seems crazy decision to put this vehicle on a race track in these conditions. 

 

 

 

Additionally perhaps there was time to warn Gasly in advance? We'll never know. 

[Okyo]

Gasly coulda had the idea to try doing a quali lap for all i care, the bottom line is the tractor shouldn't be on track like that at that time in these kind of conditions. Period. Every other issue comes second to that. 

How they tried to spin it the other way around, in this very track, in these very conditions is beyond me. 

Edited by Okyo, 09 October 2022 - 09:05.

[Ruusperi]

They absolutely need a slow-zone rule like in Le Mans, so that marshals can do their recovery work without the risk of being hit by the drivers catching the SC train.

40kph should be safe enough.

Edited by Ruusperi, 09 October 2022 - 09:09.

[Red5ive]

1 race ban for Gasly doing his best to recreate the very sad Bianchi accident.

Edited by Red5ive, 09 October 2022 - 09:50.

[OO7]

The footage from the marshal/tractor perspective was quite scary!

[Kev00]

You hear in WEC that the Race Director has a direct line to the drivers. I don’t know if this is the case in F1 but it definitely should be. All drivers should receive the information if a tractor is on track and to take care at a certain corner or stay to one side of the track. A tractor on circuit can always be controlled under safety car. I don’t want red flags all the time but communication is key

[Ruusperi]

Seems like the plant machinery was deployed earlier, with a number of drivers passing it. 

 

Seems crazy decision to put this vehicle on a race track in these conditions. 

We didn't know the race would be red flagged. Probably a SC a few laps and then restart was the plan. So of course marshals need to clear stranded cars. You can't expect race to be red flagged for every stopped car. This is why I prefer Slow Zone protocol, or Rule 60.

Edited by Ruusperi, 09 October 2022 - 09:14.

[Ali_G]

Some points.

1. First lap of race with some spray. FOM need to be able to communicate with drivers that there are no racing vehicles and Marshall’s on tracks.
2. Why was the loader on the track. From the position of the car, the loader could have been in the grass instead.
3. Gasly was driving much too fast given the conditions and the SC period. He had no need to catch the SC at such a pace. Gasly needs a severe reprimand.
4. FIA should not have had a loader on track given they intended to red flag the race. An internal safety review is required.

[Scaboo22]

We've come a long way in terms of safety but today showed that there is still much work to be done. That was appalling, and blaming Gasly was even worse.

[dweller23]

Seems like the plant machinery was deployed earlier, with a number of drivers passing it. 

 

Seems crazy decision to put this vehicle on a race track in these conditions. 

 

 

 

Additionally perhaps there was time to warn Gasly in advance? We'll never know. 

It was under the Safety Car, this is a standard thing that happens at all tracks where tractor is needed to be deployed in order to retrieve a stricken car. Nothing unusual about this apart from Gasly flooring it during SC.

[JeePee]

Gasly coulda had the idea to try doing a quali lap for all i care, the bottom line is the tractor shouldn't be on track like that at that time in these kind of conditions. Period. Every other issue comes second to that.

How they tried to spin it the other way around, in this very track, in these very conditions is beyond me.

Okay cool, so if he kills Sainz in the process thats less worse than him hitting the tractor?

Drivers should learn the throttle paddle works both ways.

If we can't recover vehicles during Safety Car situations anymore, just don't bother racing at all.

[Topsu]

Be it Safety Car or Red Flag, the drivers should be prepared for the fact that a stricken car is being taken away by a tractor. I think this outrage is baffling. What are the FIA supposed to do, if cranes can't retrieve cars under SC conditions? Bianchi's case was a mistake by FIA, as there were only yellow flags. But if a SC is not enough to allow tractors on track...

[Ali_G]

Okay cool, so if he kills Sainz in the process thats less worse than him hitting the tractor?

Drivers should learn the throttle paddle works both ways.

If we can't recover vehicles during Safety Car situations anymore, just don't bother racing at all.

Gasly had no info about the loader bring on track. That’s the key issue IMO.

[Jarninho]

It was still a safety car situation as the red flag was called just as Gasly went past the tractor. But the tractor was pretty much on the same line as Carlos’ car. There was a safety car and Marshalls on track. Gasly knew perfectly well where the incident was because he already drove past it the precious lap. Yet he decided to blast past it pretty much at racing speed. This is insane to me and deserves a severe penalty.
Had Gasly taken a wider line he would have hit the tractor, but had the tractor not been there he would have hit the Ferrari at 250kph and he wouldn’t have known if the driver had safely exited the car and left the circuit.
I get the Jules emotions but I think they are not warranted here.

[Okyo]

Okay cool, so if he kills Sainz in the process thats less worse than him hitting the tractor?

Drivers should learn the throttle paddle works both ways.

If we can't recover vehicles during Safety Car situations anymore, just don't bother racing at all.

I'm talking about the full deflection of blame that was going on. Gasly deservers a penalty, of course, but the tractor, on tarmac, in these conditions with cars going by is the main issue of all of this nonsense. 
Then the absolute denial of blame from the race directors. Let's be real, after this weekend, Gasly will have a penalty without ANY words from the management about missmanaging the situation. That disgusts me. At least admit some of the blame of missmanaging instead of saying "We did absolutely no mistakes, all fault rests with Gasly" as that is the official narative that they got going on with their earlier press release. 

Edited by Okyo, 09 October 2022 - 09:24.

[JeePee]

Gasly had no info about the loader bring on track. That’s the key issue IMO.

Sainz car was also on track there, behind the loader. which Gasly saw the lap before. He is okay to hit that?

He literally collected a piece of wall there the lap before.

[JeePee]

It was still a safety car situation as the red flag was called just as Gasly went past the tractor. But the tractor was pretty much on the same line as Carlos’ car. There was a safety car and Marshalls on track. Gasly knew perfectly well where the incident was because he already drove past it the precious lap. Yet he decided to blast past it pretty much at racing speed. This is insane to me and deserves a severe penalty.
Had Gasly taken a wider line he would have hit the tractor, but had the tractor not been there he would have hit the Ferrari at 250kph and he wouldn’t have known if the driver had safely exited the car and left the circuit.
I get the Jules emotions but I think they are not warranted here.

Yes. Thank you.

[uzsjgb]

It was under the Safety Car, this is a standard thing that happens at all tracks where tractor is needed to be deployed in order to retrieve a stricken car. Nothing unusual about this apart from Gasly flooring it during SC.

 

Exactly. That is what the safety car is for. I don't quite understand why people are now saying that heavy machinery should only be allowed on track if there are no cars present. I remember in Monza people were shouting for the recovery of Ricciardo's car to go faster, and this was also done under safety car with cars on track.

 

I personally think a very harsh penalty for speeding under yellow or red flags is long overdue. Drivers speeding under such conditions must stop. This is such a danger, not only to themselves. A race ban for Gasly would be more than appropriate.

 

Having said all that the procedures governing the deployment of personel on track may need to take weather and visibility into consideration.

[SCUDmissile]

The FIA really want to kill somebody again, don't they?

[TomNokoe]

My opinion is that racing cars should be able to drive past tractors under SC conditions. It is not fundamentally unsafe, even in the rain. The main issues are communication, driver awareness and speed, which seem very easy to solve.

I think the impassioned reaction from fans, pundits and drivers is unreasonable and creates a culture of fear around recovery vehicles that will eventually disrupt grand prix unnecessarily if it continues.

[dweller23]

Gasly had no info about the loader bring on track. That’s the key issue IMO.

He had info on SC though and about a crashed car as per his radio comms. Having watched the entire 1.5 lap with Gasly onboard up until the moment where he passes the tractor I am pretty sure that it is Gasly who is at fault here unfortunately, not the procedure. If we end up red flagging EVERY stricken car in F1 then F1 will become a lottery. Also, take into account that the place where Sainz crashed is not that obvious of a place, while there are crashes there from time to time, it's simply not viable to set up another crane there.

[pRy]

Button sums is up nicely.
 
1. A tractor shouldn't ever be on the track in these conditions.
2. Drivers tend to drive too quickly in areas they shouldn't.
 
Two seperate issues. Issue 1 should have resulted in a red flag and needs to be investiated. Issue 2 is a general F1 issue.

[OO7]

I completely agree with Jenson right now.  There shouldn't be a vehicle on track and Pierre was going too quickly.  If there was no crane on track but only marshals, then that puts the marshals at considerable risk.

[Myrvold]

Gasly had no info about the loader bring on track. That’s the key issue IMO.

 

Ok, so haven't seen the race yet - at work. But from what I can see in this thread. The everlasting problem is that drivers never are able to come to a complete stop in short notice. The track may be blocked, there may be people on the track etc. While the FIA needs to get their crap together, they also need to seriously penalize drivers that doesn't follow safety-related rules. With a heavy penalty that stops them from doing it.

[F1 Mike]

It does feel a little like the drama surrounding the telehandler on the track was actually caused, triggered, or heightened by Gasly's actions and reactions on the radio.

Would there have been so much reaction to the situation if he hadn't gone past it at such speed?

It was definitely bad that it was on the actual racetrack when cars were circulating and that should not happen again... But Gasly was definitely in the wrong as well

[TheFish]

It shouldn't be on the circuit until everyone is trundling around behind the SC. They were too eager to move the cars away before it was safe to do so.

 

Gasly was likely driving too fast (I haven't seen enough of the details to be sure) but I suspect he was following his delta which may also need looking at.

 

Communication should also be improved. Drivers should be aware there's a tractor and/or marshals on circuit. Especially in tricky conditions with lower visibility than usual.

[pRy]

It does feel a little like the drama surrounding the telehandler on the track was actually caused, triggered, or heightened by Gasly's actions and reactions on the radio.

 

Gasly wasn't the only driver raising it as an issue over the radio so it was considered a risk generally. 

[F1 Mike]

Gasly wasn't the only driver raising it as an issue over the radio so it was considered a risk generally.

Absolutely, but if they were all passing it at safe speeds behind the safety car I feel it would have been a little less in the spotlight

[Okyo]

My opinion is that racing cars should be able to drive past tractors under SC conditions. It is not fundamentally unsafe, even in the rain. The main issues are communication, driver awareness and speed, which seem very easy to solve.

I think the impassioned reaction from fans, pundits and drivers is unreasonable and creates a culture of fear around recovery vehicles that will eventually disrupt grand prix unnecessarily if it continues.

This, for me, isn't an issue of having a recovery vehicle somewhere on the track with cars moving around, this is an issue of having a moving recovery vehicle on tarmac, a few meters from the cars going by even at rather low speeds where conditions could cause a car going wide in to the said recovery vehicle (in other words, within margin of error). That's just unneeded. Gasly knew where the crash happened, but did he know where the recovery vehicle was at that time? It was a situation where a mere going wide, being in the spray of a followed car could have been easily enough to go wide that kind of a distance in to the moving tractor. As i understood, that was the main issue Gasly had with how it was managed. He admited going too fast, but he was frustrated why there even was a situation like this even if he had gone slowly. Didn't Norris and some other drivers talk about the same thing when they got past the recovery vehicle? Why on earth did they have to pass it so close, still in the margin of error in these kind of conditions when it could have been avoided with a more controlled and paced out recovery? Let the SC at least catch the whole bloody field as a mere minimum before you let slow vehicles on the tarmac. 

I understand some people here. We had a tractor on tarmac, close to the cars and one driver speeding by next to it. Some have an issue with the first part of the sentence, others with the last, both of these were an issue, but race management absolutely ignored the issue which is why some, including me are pi**ed. 

Edited by Okyo, 09 October 2022 - 09:58.

[WonderWoman61]

Has nothing been learned from the Bianchi tragedy? 8 years on and lessons clearly still need learning.

[flingsofdeon]

So, Gasly gets a 20 second penalty and 2 points on his license for speeding under red flag conditions. Oh dear.

[pRy]

Absolutely, but if they were all passing it at safe speeds behind the safety car I feel it would have been a little less in the spotlight

 

Oh sure. All cars lined up behind the SC, with no one catching up, the SC driving very slowly and all drivers informed of the digger.... yes. Although some drivers may still feel there is still the slim possibility they could lose control of the car and aquaplane into it. But that fear may never leave some of the drivers due to what they witnessed with Bianchi. 

[Ali_G]

Sainz car was also on track there, behind the loader. which Gasly saw the lap before. He is okay to hit that?

He literally collected a piece of wall there the lap before.

Me saying that it’s the key point is probably incorrect. Notifying of tractors being on track needs to be done though.

Irrespective, Gasly was carrying much too much speed through there and deserves some sort of penalty.

If race control intended to throw a red flag, then the tractor should have only gone on track when all cars were past it.

Edited by Ali_G, 09 October 2022 - 09:52.

[Myrvold]

So, Gasly gets a 20 second penalty and 2 points on his license for speeding under red flag conditions. Oh dear.

That's lenient.

[Okyo]

So, Gasly gets a 20 second penalty and 2 points on his license for speeding under red flag conditions. Oh dear.

Probably a good call.

[dweller23]

So, Gasly gets a 20 second penalty and 2 points on his license for speeding under red flag conditions. Oh dear.

Well, that's a separate issue, red flag was shown after Gasly passed the scene of the accident, but then he was actually setting green sectors. Might be there's gonna be also a question of him speeding under SC.

[genius83]

Gasly driving too fast is a questionable offence, but what are the chances it was because of different tyres then everyone else?  Gasly's mistake need severe punishment with out a doubt if the tyre delta shows less difference between wet and inter lap time.

 

Not informing the drivers about tractor on track is serious FIA's race management issue. They should held responsible for mis communication regardless of Gasly outcome.