147 replies to this topic

[mkad]

As some users pointed out in the race thread, today's GP ended a lap too early. Also the Finnish commentators mentioned this. I'm not seeing this "incident" discussed as much as the others but I still think it deserves own thread.

 

I was thinking back to Canada 2018 where I think was the previous situation like this. I found a Sky Sports article from that GP which has this interesting comment:

 

"The chaos it leads to is that the race is classified now at lap 68. The rules say that if there is confusion like this, the race then has to be classified two laps before.

 

Should that be applied here too? If so, I suppose, Leclerc vs Perez and the 5 seconds time penalty didn't happen.. Also Alonso loses couple places.

 

What are your thoughts on this one? Or does some have the actual rules which affect this situation?

[SenorSjon]

It seems
Race time: 2 hrs + 1 lap
Event time: 3 hrs, final lap when clock hits 0.

They should bin the event timer. A good 1 hour shower, guardrail repair or something else mid race is enough to let the clock run out.

Edited by SenorSjon, 09 October 2022 - 09:49.

[Diablobb81]

It seems
Race time: 2 hrs + 1 lap
Event time: 3 hrs, final lap when clock hits 0.

Haven't looked if this is true but the F1 rules are something else in terms of idiocy.

[TheFish]

It seems
Race time: 2 hrs + 1 lap
Event time: 3 hrs, final lap when clock hits 0.

Given other events today, I'm not sure if this is something in the rule book or if you're joking and they make it up as they go along.

[Ruusperi]

Did it? Singapore was also a timed race, and there wasn't extra lap in the end.

I remember when some series didn't have "0:00 +1 lap rule", it was hilarious when the leading car was in the last corner, and then time ran out, so it became the final lap for the last 50 meters. Quite confusing, so most series have +1 lap rule nowadays.

[SenorSjon]

Given other events today, I'm not sure if this is something in the rule book or if you're joking and they make it up as they go along.

Iirc, the +1 lap was added later in the rules. Would be full FIA to forget the event timer.

[Red5ive]

Really does it matter - boring championship this year with one driver dominating.

 

zzzzzz

[SenorSjon]

Did it? Singapore was also a timed race, and there wasn't extra lap in the end.
I remember when some series didn't have "0:00 +1 lap rule", it was hilarious when the leading car was in the last corner, and then time ran out, so it became the final lap for the last 50 meters. Quite confusing, so most series have +1 lap rule nowadays.

There was.

[l2k2]

Good opening. I also was wondering if there should be a thread. This is a much bigger issue than the odd rules giving full points (when applied as they are written). Ending the race had a tangible effect on the results in the midfield, plus now the correct (?) rule interpretation should cause further chaos in the order (as there were plenty of passes).

 

Not sure if it removes the time penalty (even if the infringement happened after the race should have ended, it was still an infringement).

 

The (?) relates to the relationship between “end of race” signal and the “chequered flag”. We did not see the former, did we?

[Risil]

Really does it matter - boring championship this year with one driver dominating.

zzzzzz

I think it matters in the sense that the FIA have reached early IRL standards of officiating.

[Broekschaap]

The way i read it, the two hour is replaced with three hour in this case and the race was flagged early.

 

The distance of all races, from the start signal referred to in Article 44.10 to the end-of-
session signal referred to in Article 59.1, shall be equal to the least number of complete
laps which exceed a distance of 305km. However, should two hours elapse before the
scheduled race distance is completed, the leader will be shown the end-of-session signal
when he crosses the control line (the Line) at the end of the lap following the lap during
which the two (2) hour period ended, provided this does not result in the scheduled
number of laps being exceeded. Only under the circumstances below will any exception
be made to the above:
a) The distance of the race in Monaco shall be equal to the least number of complete
laps which exceed a distance of 260km.

b) Should the race be suspended (see Article 57) the length of the suspension will be
added to this period up to a maximum total race time of three (3) hours.

[Mechanic44]

Binotto is raging 😂 he said the cost cap issues will melt away like snow in the sun haha and now said this .

Ferrari team principal Binotto to Sky Italy:

“How fast FIA took the decision to sanction Leclerc is ridiculous and unacceptable.

Last race it took them an infinite number of laps to take a nonsense decision.

We will protest in the appropriate offices”

[SenorSjon]

He forgot about Canada with Vettel skipping the chicane?

[TennisUK]

I don’t see anything in the rules that says it would be 3 hours + 0 laps. It looks like 3 hours just replaces 2 hours.

Looks like a pretty slam dunk error by FIA, and would mean that Max is not WDC yet after all.

[Augurk]

Binotto is raging 😂 he said the cost cap issues will melt away like snow in the sun haha and now said this .

Ferrari team principal Binotto to Sky Italy:

“How fast FIA took the decision to sanction Leclerc is ridiculous and unacceptable.

Last race it took them an infinite number of laps to take a nonsense decision.

We will protest in the appropriate offices”

Would be awesome if they protested the speed of the decision making. Would be the cherry on top of their clown year!

[basimi]

Binotto should be quiet. This was a slam dunk penalty. I’m not sure how you can even debate it.

[baddog]

I don’t see anything in the rules that says it would be 3 hours + 0 laps. It looks like 3 hours just replaces 2 hours.

Looks like a pretty slam dunk error by FIA, and would mean that Max is not WDC yet after all.

 

He is not yet champion in fact, and It is meaningless till the season ends and the championship is awarded anyway. He could for instance do something massively dumb and be penalised in a way that resulted in him not being WDC for example. Obviously vanishingly unlikely but possible.

[PayasYouRace]

Admittedly I didn’t notice anything. I though Max started his last lap when the clock was at zero.

[Ruusperi]

There was.

So were rules applied incorrectly in Singapore, or now in Suzuka? They both can't be correct (albeit in FIA's topsy-turvy world everything seems to be possible).

[Risil]

Admittedly I didn’t notice anything. I though Max started his last lap when the clock was at zero.

It should be possible to get chapter and verse on this!

[sniper80]

Max started his last lap when the clock was at zero. I see nothing wrong with that.

[Ruusperi]

Admittedly I didn’t notice anything. I though Max started his last lap when the clock was at zero.

You can see from the data channel, that time ran out after he had crossed the finish line. And race ended without +1 lap.

 

EDIT: By comparison, in Singapore Perez did +1 lap after time ran out.

Edited by Ruusperi, 09 October 2022 - 11:19.

[sniper80]

Binotto is raging he said the cost cap issues will melt away like snow in the sun haha and now said this .

Ferrari team principal Binotto to Sky Italy:

“How fast FIA took the decision to sanction Leclerc is ridiculous and unacceptable.

Last race it took them an infinite number of laps to take a nonsense decision.

We will protest in the appropriate offices”

To me Binotto is the clown of the season. Ferrari had a stunner of a car this year and totally dominant in the opening Grand Prix.

Yet they failed to develop the car and threw away an enormous amount of points and have failed to win a a race since Austria.

If he is raging, he should look in the mirror first.

[Heyli]

I don’t see anything in the rules that says it would be 3 hours + 0 laps. It looks like 3 hours just replaces 2 hours.

Looks like a pretty slam dunk error by FIA, and would mean that Max is not WDC yet after all.

Why not? We learned already a few years ago that when they drop the flag is decisive, even if it was done by mistake? Or did they change that one as well?

[Elloh]

As some users pointed out in the race thread, today's GP ended a lap too early. Also the Finnish commentators mentioned this. I'm not seeing this "incident" discussed as much as the others but I still think it deserves own thread.

 

I was thinking back to Canada 2018 where I think was the previous situation like this. I found a Sky Sports article from that GP which has this interesting comment:

 

"The chaos it leads to is that the race is classified now at lap 68. The rules say that if there is confusion like this, the race then has to be classified two laps before.

 

Should that be applied here too? If so, I suppose, Leclerc vs Perez and the 5 seconds time penalty didn't happen.. Also Alonso loses couple places.

 

What are your thoughts on this one? Or does some have the actual rules which affect this situation?

 

 

I think you got a little bit confused here, they would not to remove a lap since that would not solve anything. In Canada the chequered flag was waved too early (Race officials erroneously directed model Winnie Harlow to wave the chequered flag before race leader Vettel completed lap 69 (the scheduled penultimate lap) and therefore the results were taken from lap 68), it is not comparable with the Japanese situation.

[Primo]

Would be awesome if they protested the speed of the decision making. Would be the cherry on top of their clown year!

 

Indeed. Especially if the protest would go through, basically guarantee that all decisions about race incidents would be decided on first Monday after the race. Or Wednesday.

Seriously, Binotto have been strange lately. The interview about the cost cap showed me a man who had lost his ambition, his belief in the future. Maybe the controversies with in his team is slowly strangling him, affecting his brains blood supply.

[P123]

Sure this happened in China a few years back too, and did they not forget to wave the chequer in Brazil one year, or missed the leader?  But the full race distance was still completed in those.

[AlexS]

To me Binotto is the clown of the season. Ferrari had a stunner of a car this year and totally dominant in the opening Grand Prix.

Yet they failed to develop the car and threw away an enormous amount of points and have failed to win a a race since Austria.

If he is raging, he should look in the mirror first.

 

That is completely out reasoning and logic. 

 

You do not loose your reason in one situation because you are dumb or incompetent in another.  You can protest that your food is crap even if your art project have been a failure,.

[TomNokoe]

I guess a good comparison is Le Mans - once the 24hrs are up the finish is when the leader crosses the line.

[FullOppositeLock]

I don’t see anything in the rules that says it would be 3 hours + 0 laps. It looks like 3 hours just replaces 2 hours.

Looks like a pretty slam dunk error by FIA, and would mean that Max is not WDC yet after all.

I would welcome it. Max deserves to win it in style.

[Ali_G]

If they go back 2 laps for positions, will LeClerc still have a 5 sec penalty applied?

[Augurk]

I don’t see anything in the rules that says it would be 3 hours + 0 laps. It looks like 3 hours just replaces 2 hours.

Looks like a pretty slam dunk error by FIA, and would mean that Max is not WDC yet after all.

That depends on whether the penalty would be voided because of classification being taken from a lap early.

I don't think there's a provision on that in the rules and would be a judgement call.

 

At least it's not "slam dunk" that Leclerc gets P2 back. The rules don't say the race then has finished a lap early, it says the race classification will be from a lap earlier. So it doesn't really erase the lap raced after that.

Also you surely wouldn't want someone to get away with a grave foul (which this isn't, so talking hypothetical) just because the race was classified a lap earlier.
 

[ANF]

The way i read it, the two hour is replaced with three hour in this case and the race was flagged early.
 
The distance of all races, from the start signal referred to in Article 44.10 to the end-of-
session signal referred to in Article 59.1, shall be equal to the least number of complete
laps which exceed a distance of 305km. However, should two hours elapse before the
scheduled race distance is completed, the leader will be shown the end-of-session signal
when he crosses the control line (the Line) at the end of the lap following the lap during
which the two (2) hour period ended, provided this does not result in the scheduled
number of laps being exceeded. Only under the circumstances below will any exception
be made to the above:
a) The distance of the race in Monaco shall be equal to the least number of complete
laps which exceed a distance of 260km.
b) Should the race be suspended (see Article 57) the length of the suspension will be
added to this period up to a maximum total race time of three (3) hours.

Yes. So unless the TV/data clock was out of sync, I think Ferrari will protest this to get Leclerc reinstated in P2.

---

59.2 Should for any reason the end-of-session signal be given before the leading car completes the scheduled number of laps, or the prescribed time has been completed, the sprint session or the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given.

[TheFish]

I have no idea if Leclerc would still get a penalty applied for a lap that didn't technically happen. I'm not sure the rules cover that outcome!

[Broekschaap]

Yes. So unless the TV/data clock was out of sync, I think Ferrari will protest this to get Leclerc reinstated in P2.

---

59.2 Should for any reason the end-of-session signal be given before the leading car completes the scheduled number of laps, or the prescribed time has been completed, the sprint session or the race will be deemed to have finished when the leading car last crossed the Line before the signal was given.

 

Agreed, i think more teams would benefit given Alonso's last few laps.

 

Other strang thing is that i think (so i am not 100% sure) Max didn't see the flag when passing the finish line. Not that this really matters but is strange and you would expect the stewards to adress this when making up the results.

 

edit: Max total racing time was 3:01:44.004. And his fastest lap 1.44.911 so that does not really work out in favour of the FIA

Edited by Broekschaap, 09 October 2022 - 11:47.

[Ali_G]

I have no idea if Leclerc would still get a penalty applied for a lap that didn't technically happen. I'm not sure the rules cover that outcome!

Common sense would say that the penalty is scrapped as it happened after the race result.

[Risil]

I have no idea if Leclerc would still get a penalty applied for a lap that didn't technically happen. I'm not sure the rules cover that outcome!

I think Niki Lauda used to joke that because of the red flag rules his crash at the Nurburgring didn't technically happen, and the FIA owed him one of his ears.

[TennisUK]

That depends on whether the penalty would be voided because of classification being taken from a lap early.
I don't think there's a provision on that in the rules and would be a judgement call.

At least it's not "slam dunk" that Leclerc gets P2 back. The rules don't say the race then has finished a lap early, it says the race classification will be from a lap earlier. So it doesn't really erase the lap raced after that.
Also you surely wouldn't want someone to get away with a grave foul (which this isn't, so talking hypothetical) just because the race was classified a lap earlier.

When this happened at Suzuka in 2019, ironically, Perez also benefitted. He crashed on the lap 53 and wouldn’t have got any points. But because the flag was shown on lap 52 he still got points for 9th. He managed to get away with that ‘grave foul’.

Edited by TennisUK, 09 October 2022 - 12:44.

[RedRabbit]

So the argument is that because the race apparently may have possibly ended one lap early, because Max apparently may have possibly started a lap with an entire 4 seconds left on the timer, the classification should then be taken from 2 laps earlier, without any real good reason? Other than people who like the word farce and don't want to see Max "crowned" as champion already.

Ok. 🤣

[PlatenGlass]

Regardless of anything else, if Max crossed the line before the timer ran out, it seems like a tactical error. Don't add a lap to the race if you're in the lead!

[ensign14]

Really does it matter - boring championship this year with one driver dominating.

 

zzzzzz

Actually does, because:

 

-if it ended too early, Leclerc gets 2nd back;

 

-the points would not be the 100% points, because the race would have been flagged prematurely.

[Risil]

So the argument is that because the race apparently may have possibly ended one lap early, because Max apparently may have possibly started a lap with an entire 4 seconds left on the timer, the classification should then be taken from 2 laps earlier, without any real good reason? Other than people who like the word farce and don't want to see Max "crowned" as champion already.

Ok. 🤣

Them's the rules? I don't know that we know the chequered flag did definitely come out early.

[PlatenGlass]

I think people are confused here. It seems that Verstappen had just crossed the line already before the time was up and the race ended at the end of the lap he was on. If the +1 lap rule is applied there should have been an extra lap.

If the race was one lap short due to this, the solution isn't to shorten it even more and give Leclerc second place back. You leave it as is.

[Risil]

Regardless of anything else, if Max crossed the line before the timer ran out, it seems like a tactical error. Don't add a lap to the race if you're in the lead!

More laps = more opportunities for Perez to get past Leclerc!

[SenorSjon]

Regardless of anything else, if Max crossed the line before the timer ran out, it seems like a tactical error. Don't add a lap to the race if you're in the lead!

Not if you can help your teammate who could benefit from the extra lap.

[PlatenGlass]

Them's the rules. I don't know that we know the chequered flag did definitely come out early.

Are you sure? You accidentally shorten the race so the solution is to further shorten it? Barking.

[PlatenGlass]

More laps = more opportunities for Perez to get past Leclerc!

Maybe but is it worth gambling the win?

[FLB]

I think it matters in the sense that the FIA have reached early IRL standards of officiating.

In the early IRL, the series (along with AC Delco) devised a light system inside the car to warn the drivers when the yellow was coming out, in case of a radio failure and the spotter failing to warn the driver. All good, right?

 

...

 

Unfortunately, not really, as that led to the green coming out as the yellow light was still on at Indy in 1997 (for the final restart IIRC) and Arie Luyendyk dropping an F-bomb live on ABC (What the @%*# are they doing?!?)

Edited by FLB, 09 October 2022 - 13:10.

[bibliophagos]

Are you sure? You accidentally shorten the race so the solution is to further shorten it? Barking.

It might be barking, but it sure is the rules.

[Risil]

Are you sure? You accidentally shorten the race so the solution is to further shorten it? Barking.

Yeah I think the reasoning is that a chequered flag at the wrong time invalidates the lap just gone. It's happened a few times over the years.