147 replies to this topic

[Planetdune]

or just put it back to 4 hrs and start the races at a reasonable time to avoid darkness

 

No, the 3 hour has to go. It was 4 in the past and that should still be the case. Some races take about 2 hours regardless. Having just 1 hour margin is cutting it too thin. Especially in wet weather conditions, when lengthy red flags are common. Nobody likes that feeling after a really long wait, we finally get racing to realize that we only got a glorified sprint race because some arbitrary timer says so.

Edited by Planetdune, 10 October 2022 - 07:57.

[Broekschaap]

Regarding Verstappen & chequered flag, that's an interesting question. Was it shown to him? Maybe someone with F1 TV Pro can check from the onboard.

 

It was shown to Leclerc & Perez + all the others.

That i did yesterday. The cameraview switches before he crosses the finish line facing his helmet. Hard to see so i am not sure happy to be proven wroing. But the electronic flag appears not at the moment he passes the finish line. And some 20 seconds after passing the finish his engineer informs him about some confussion about the race ending and bring the car home, he does not respond with i got the flag or anything like that. I haven't seen any pictures/clips of him crossing the finish while getting the flag. Strange given the championship won.

Edited by Broekschaap, 10 October 2022 - 08:18.

[Clatter]

It was, but if this was any other race, that decision would NOT have been made that fast. For sure the FIA pressured the stewards to get it done that fast so they could "crown the wdc" on the podium and not in a statement 2 hours later. To that effect, I agree. Decision-making should not be biased on unrelated circumstance , as then you get bad decisions sooner or later.

They can't win can they. Take too long to make decision people complain, make a quick decision on something that was so obvious that it didn't even need discussing and still people complain.

[Broekschaap]

That i did yesterday. The cameraview switches before he crosses the finish line facing his helmet. Hard to see so i am not sure happy to be proven wroing. But the electronic flag appears not at the moment he passes the finish line. And some 20 seconds after passing the finish his engineer informs him about some confussion about the race ending and bring the car home, he does not respond with i got the flag or anything like that. I haven't seen any pictures/clips of him crossing the finish while getting the flag. Strange given the championship won.

Okay i was wrong:

 

https://www.ad.nl/fo...stijn~a0e0c2e9/

[Risil]

Was listening to The Race's podcast this morning, they said that the race was finished in accordance with the "three-hour rule" provision, which ends the race 3 hours after it begun as soon as the leader crosses the line, without the "time limit plus one lap" method, which is only used for the "two hour rule".

No idea why the two scenarios require different procedures but there you have it.

[bibliophagos]

Was listening to The Race's podcast this morning, they said that the race was finished in accordance with the "three-hour rule" provision, which ends the race 3 hours after it begun as soon as the leader crosses the line, without the "time limit plus one lap" method, which is only used for the "two hour rule".

No idea why the two scenarios require different procedures but there you have it.

Did they quote the rule? I did a cursory search (because I can't really be bothered to plow through all of it), but I didn't see a difference between the end of the 2 hour rule and the 3 hour rule.

[milestone 11]

Was listening to The Race's podcast this morning, they said that the race was finished in accordance with the "three-hour rule" provision, which ends the race 3 hours after it begun as soon as the leader crosses the line, without the "time limit plus one lap" method, which is only used for the "two hour rule".
No idea why the two scenarios require different procedures but there you have it.

Article 43.2 covers the race completion quite clearly. There is no mention of different scenarios.

[Gareth]

Was listening to The Race's podcast this morning, they said that the race was finished in accordance with the "three-hour rule" provision, which ends the race 3 hours after it begun as soon as the leader crosses the line, without the "time limit plus one lap" method, which is only used for the "two hour rule".

No idea why the two scenarios require different procedures but there you have it.

I disagree with this. The "finish the lap where the timer hits zero, then do another lap" applies to both scenarios.

 

Under the rules there is only 1 timer, which is 2hrs from race start plus the amount of any red flag period (up to a maximum of 1hr of red flag).

 

Relevant rules here:

 

5.4 The distance of all races, from the start signal referred to in Article 44.10 to the end-ofsession signal referred to in Article 59.1, shall be equal to the least number of complete laps which exceed a distance of 305km. However, should two hours elapse before the scheduled race distance is completed, the leader will be shown the end-of-session signal when he crosses the control line (the Line) at the end of the lap following the lap during which the two (2) hour period ended, provided this does not result in the scheduled number of laps being exceeded. Only under the circumstances below will any exception be made to the above:

 

[...]

 

5.4(b) Should the race be suspended (see Article 57) the length of the suspension will be added to this period up to a maximum total race time of three (3) hours

 

So IMO it definitely finished 1 lap too early. But if the chequered flag was waved at that point, even if in error, that's when the race ends I think from the Canada precedent.

 

They made the correct decision re: points under the rules, but made a right mess of the rules. Basically it's full points for any 2 lap or more race that ends with a chequered flag. So if they start a race 2:50 after the scheduled start time, and get 2 laps of racing in, it's full points. Whereas if they start a race at the start time, get 49% of the laps of racing in, then red flag and never resume, it's half(ish) points. Which is absolute nonsense. Thanks Masi.

[FullOppositeLock]

So, if FIA and FOM play this cleverly they can kill four birds with one stone: release a statement saying that the race ended a lap early and therefore the result of the lap before start, with Leclerc p2 despite his obvious leaving the track and gaining an advantage in the lap declared irrelevant. This gives:
- Max was (briefly) crowned WDC in Honda’s back yard, which some people seem to believe matters,
- We have a WDC deciding race on our hands in the USA, which some people believe matters
- Verstappen, his family and his fans get to actually celebrate an extraordinary title rather than it being handled as an afterthought
- perhaps most importantly, the “Verstappen needs to be stripped of his WDC title” brigade get their day in the sun, if only briefly

I see only winners. Come on FIA, do it!!!

[Gareth]

Don't think that will work, sadly.

 

Article 96.5 of the Sporting Regs says "Once a Driver sits on the Official F1 World Champion Throne, they become the winner of the Championship".

[SenorSjon]

But at Spa they invoked the clause that it can actually be as long as they want because they can take the batteries out of the clock.

 

Iirc, that race had a delayed start, so the clcok wasn't started.

 

So, if FIA and FOM play this cleverly they can kill four birds with one stone: release a statement saying that the race ended a lap early and therefore the result of the lap before start, with Leclerc p2 despite his obvious leaving the track and gaining an advantage in the lap declared irrelevant. This gives:
- Max was (briefly) crowned WDC in Honda’s back yard, which some people seem to believe matters,
- We have a WDC deciding race on our hands in the USA, which some people believe matters
- Verstappen, his family and his fans get to actually celebrate an extraordinary title rather than it being handled as an afterthought
- perhaps most importantly, the “Verstappen needs to be stripped of his WDC title” brigade get their day in the sun, if only briefly

I see only winners. Come on FIA, do it!!!

 

There are only losers a day after the fact. Verstappen needs what, 1 point in 4 races then? If someone bar Leclerc or Perez would do the fastest lap, it is over. That is about as bad as have Herbert telling you won the title.

Edited by SenorSjon, 10 October 2022 - 09:43.

[Broekschaap]

Don't think that will work, sadly.

 

Article 96.5 of the Sporting Regs says "Once a Driver sits on the Official F1 World Champion Throne, they become the winner of the Championship".

I am not going to check, i am not going to check, i am not going to check..... wait for a moment and let me check that!

 

edit: which version of the rules

Edited by Broekschaap, 10 October 2022 - 09:48.

[FullOppositeLock]

Iirc, that race had a delayed start, so the clcok wasn't started.


There are only losers a day after the fact. Verstappen needs what, 1 point in 4 races then? If someone bar Leclerc or Perez would do the fastest lap, it is over. That is about as bad as have Herbert telling you won the title.

It’s not. Imagine a sunny Texas, great atmosphere, all relaxed Max and a proper title celebration. Our American friends know how to throw a party. Yesterday was just utterly, utterly depressing.

[smitten]

What a ****ing shambles the regs are!

 

Paraphrasing for brevity:

 

59.1 - Chequered flag to be show when the distance is complete as defined in 5.3

 

But 5.3 defines the number of practices sessions!  So they must mean 5.4

 

5.4 - Distance, or 2 hours + 1 lap.

 

And then they define exceptions, and frankly exception b) could be interpreted either way

 

b) Time of race suspension added up to a maximum race time of 3 hours.

 

 

So:

1. We run to distance
2. Or we run to 2 hours + 1 lap.
3. Or we run to 2 hours + 1 lap + suspension time (if less than 3 hours)
4. Or we have a somewhat ambiguous "Suspension time + race time" up to a maximum of 3 hours .

It is completely ambiguous in the regs if the end of the race in scenario 4 is

1. The moment the clock turns to 3 hours
2. When the lead driver first passes the line after the clock turns to 3 hours
3. When the lead driver completes a whole lap after the clock turns to 3 hour.

 

Then you also have to factor in the farce of Singapore, where they didn't delay the race, they "rescheduled" it to avoid starting the 3 hour clock!

Edited by smitten, 10 October 2022 - 09:59.

[Gareth]

I don’t think it’s ambiguous. The effect of (b) is IMO clearly stated to change ‘2 hours’ in 5.4 to ‘2hrs plus any suspension time up to a maximum of 3hrs’.

So, given that the ‘finish the lap the countdown hits zero on and then run another lap’ applies to 2hrs, it also applies to 3hrs (or 2.4, or 2.791, or whatever).

Also I think 5.4 does define a distance (basically: as many laps as you can do within 3hrs, plus 2 laps).

[smitten]

I don’t think it’s ambiguous. The effect of (b) is IMO clearly stated to change ‘2 hours’ in 5.4 to ‘2hrs plus any suspension time up to a maximum of 3hrs’.

So, given that the ‘finish the lap the countdown hits zero on and then run another lap’ applies to 2hrs, it also applies to 3hrs (or 2.4, or 2.791, or whatever).

Also I think 5.4 does define a distance (basically: as many laps as you can do within 3hrs, plus 2 laps).

I agree with your interpretation; that is how I would interpret it too.  But I don't think the wording only supports that one interpretation.

[FullOppositeLock]

What a ****ing shambles the regs are!

Paraphrasing for brevity:

59.1 - Chequered flag to be show when the distance is complete as defined in 5.3

But 5.3 defines the number of practices sessions! So they must mean 5.4

5.4 - Distance, or 2 hours + 1 lap.

And then they define exceptions, and frankly exception b) could be interpreted either way

b) Time of race suspension added up to a maximum race time of 3 hours.


So:

• We run to distance
• Or we run to 2 hours + 1 lap.
• Or we run to 2 hours + 1 lap + suspension time (if less than 3 hours)
• Or we have a somewhat ambiguous "Suspension time + race time" up to a maximum of 3 hours .

It is completely ambiguous in the regs if the end of the race in scenario 4 is

• The moment the clock turns to 3 hours
• When the lead driver first passes the line after the clock turns to 3 hours
• When the lead driver completes a whole lap after the clock turns to 3 hour.

Then you also have to factor in the farce of Singapore, where they didn't delay the race, they "rescheduled" it to avoid starting the 3 hour clock!

Are you by chance suggesting the regulations are one big, stinking pile of menure..?

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 10 October 2022 - 10:21.

[Broekschaap]

Are you by chance suggesting the regulations are one big, stinking pile of menure..?

Well they clearly haven't heard of something simple as a correlation table (?)(transponeringstabel in Dutch).

[smitten]

Also worth noting, that the 2 laps thing also doesn't apply, so if you sit them in the pits for 2:59:00 and then lead them round for 1 lap by the SC, then full points are awarded

[Broekschaap]

Also worth noting, that the 2 laps thing also doesn't apply, so if you sit them in the pits for 2:59:00 and then lead them round for 1 lap by the SC, then full points are awarded

I do agree with you but the definition of resuming is also not really clear. Does the race resume when the safetycar leaves the pits or after the (rolling) restart.

 

edit ah you also found 6.6  

Edited by Broekschaap, 10 October 2022 - 10:53.

[milestone 11]

I agree with your interpretation; that is how I would interpret it too.  But I don't think the wording only supports that one interpretation.

Whilst I agree 100% with Gareth's interpretation, I'll guarantee there's sufficient ambiguity for the FIA to use it to justify the balls up they themselves created.

[smitten]

I do agree with you but the definition of resuming is also not really clear. Does the race resume when the safetycar leaves the pits or after the (rolling) restart.

When the SC leaves the pits (with the race cars, not just for a recce obv.)

Edited by smitten, 10 October 2022 - 10:54.

[Ferrim]

Superficially at least, the only change the old rule needed was: "no points will be awarded for races that haven't completed X distance", where X could have been 2 laps at racing speeds, or 10% of the race distance, or 25%, or whatever.

 

Yet they came up with a needlessly complicated system of "tiers" for reduced points, depending on the achieved distance. The time invested on that would have been far more useful checking whether the modified rule still made sense, alas...

Edited by Ferrim, 10 October 2022 - 10:55.

[JtP2]

According to the rules the race ends on whichever lap the chequered flag gets shown 

 

Which is why the Williams team sent personnel to the officials at the Swiss GO in 82 to stop them hanging out the flag before Rosberg caught Prost.

[smitten]

Has there ever been a race that has reached the 3 hour limit before?  Is there any precedent for what happened (not that the FIA pay much heed to precedent, but still.)

[P123]

Also worth noting, that the 2 laps thing also doesn't apply, so if you sit them in the pits for 2:59:00 and then lead them round for 1 lap by the SC, then full points are awarded

 

Seems they need a rewrite!  I guess that means an official result and no refunds... 

[Risil]

Has there ever been a race that has reached the 3 hour limit before?  Is there any precedent for what happened (not that the FIA pay much heed to precedent, but still.)

I don't believe so. The 2011 Canadian Grand Prix exceeded 4 hours but that was before the limit was thought of. The 2016 Brazilian Grand Prix exceeded 3 hours but that was when the limit was 4.

[Broekschaap]

When the SC leaves the pits (with the race cars, not just for a recce obv.)

That sounds logical to me and i do agree but apparently while behind te safetycar it is still being considered if the competition can be resumed:

 

If, after one or more laps behind the safety car, track conditions are considered
unsuitable to resume competition, the message “RE-START PROCEDURE
SUSPENDED” will be sent to all Competitors using the official messaging system and all
cars must enter the pit lane behind the safety car.

[smitten]

That sounds logical to me and i do agree but apparently while behind te safetycar it is still being considered if the competition can be resumed:

 

If, after one or more laps behind the safety car, track conditions are considered
unsuitable to resume competition, the message “RE-START PROCEDURE
SUSPENDED” will be sent to all Competitors using the official messaging system and all
cars must enter the pit lane behind the safety car.

I think that is a technical difference between resuming the session and resuming the competition.  But with FIA drafting, who knows?

[sgtkate]

Don't think that will work, sadly.

 

Article 96.5 of the Sporting Regs says "Once a Driver sits on the Official F1 World Champion Throne, they become the winner of the Championship".

What would happen if Max now committed a serious driving offence and had enough points revoked as a penalty to let LeClerc get more points than him?

[SenorSjon]

Has there ever been a race that has reached the 3 hour limit before?  Is there any precedent for what happened (not that the FIA pay much heed to precedent, but still.)

 

Monaco this year? It was (luckily for Perez) shortened.

[SenorSjon]

What would happen if Max now committed a serious driving offence and had enough points revoked as a penalty to let LeClerc get more points than him?

 

We've seen dreadful driving in F2 but bar race bans, none lost points.

[mkad]

https://www.autospor...usion/10382621/

[Broekschaap]

I think that is a technical difference between resuming the session and resuming the competition.  But with FIA drafting, who knows?

I feel some comfort in the fact that the article is about suspending the race. And not the session or competition.

[PlatenGlass]

Iirc, that race had a delayed start, so the clcok wasn't started.

They made a big thing about stopping the clock. Do people not remember this? The 3-hour rule essentially doesn't exist if they can overrule it.

https://www.formula1...ABaagsgyY5.html

[William Hunt]

It ended at least 1 hour too early, not 1 lap

[Ferrim]

They made a big thing about stopping the clock. Do people not remember this? The 3-hour rule essentially doesn't exist if they can overrule it.

https://www.formula1...ABaagsgyY5.html

 

Yes, I for one commented on that the previous weekend. There was a lot of debate on the race thread about whether the 3-hour limit applied or not (because the "starting procedure" apparently hadn't been invoked), and I thought "who cares? They can stop the clock like they did last year at Spa".

[ANF]

So it looks like they did show Verstappen the chequered flag after all: https://www.motorspo...-gp/1019384481/

[ARTGP]

Don't think that will work, sadly.

 

Article 96.5 of the Sporting Regs says "Once a Driver sits on the Official F1 World Champion Throne, they become the winner of the Championship".

 

That cannot possibly be the only criteria for winning a championship.  It would get abused. 

Edited by ARTGP, 11 October 2022 - 22:56.

[GentlemanDriver091]

So it looks like they did show Verstappen the chequered flag after all: https://www.motorspo...-gp/1019384481/

Problem solved, this topic can be closed, I guess?

[smitten]

Problem solved, this topic can be closed, I guess?

Looking at the pic, I suggest he may not have known the race was ending that lap.  Driver's usually come much closer to the pit wall when taking the flag.

[Gareth]

Problem solved, this topic can be closed, I guess?

The problem is that the chequered flag was shown one lap too early!

[JimmyClark]

That cannot possibly be the only criteria for winning a championship. It would get abused.

It would be like something on Taskmaster. Everybody goes through with this long, overly complicated, expensive strategy of trying to win 24 races and get the most points, but they didn't read the smallprint that all they had to do was sit in the chair.

[Risil]

The problem is that the chequered flag was shown one lap too early!

 

And therefore the results should be taken from the previous lap, and therefore Leclerc's chicane cutting happened after the race ended, and therefore he should've kept his second place, and therefore Max should win the title at some future race instead of Japan.

 

What a mess. Bloody FIA!

[Gareth]

And therefore the results should be taken from the previous lap

Where does that come from? Is it that Canda precedent?

 

If so, I think what happened there was everyone kept racing for one lap after the chequered flag dropped? And they want back to the lap prior because that was when the chequered flag dropped?

 

So I don't think the precedent set is "you go back one lap", I think it's "you finish when the flag drops"?

 

[There is an interesting parallel to a recent decision here, of course, and a potential precedent that, notwithstanding that track officials' instructions may be wrong (as that flag in Canada was), the drivers must race to those instructions and what results is what results ... but I imagine the moderators of this forum would be very cross with me were I to expand on that thought  ]

[F1 Mike]

I always thought the results from previous full lap thing was to do with final results after a red flag?

[GentlemanDriver091]

The problem is that the chequered flag was shown one lap too early!

I agree, but since the chequered flag was shown, the race finished according to the rules, if I understand them correctly.

[Gareth]

I guess so, in the sense that you can fairly say ‘the rules set out what happens if we cock up and don’t follow the other bit of the rules, and having cocked up and not followed the rules, we did adhere to the bit of the rules that then kicks in’.