97 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

This isn’t really about whether the FIA are too willing or unwilling to run during rain, rather about how to manage situations where everyone might agree rain is hitting the track that is so heavy as to make running impossible.

 

Inspired by a conversation Sky we’re having with Otmar during the red flag where he said they’d learned nothing from Spa and when asked what he meant, he said basically not moving the start time forward when they knew there was rain coming. 
 

There are ambiguities here. It wasn’t entirely clear what he meant, or rather at what point this could realistically happen. I admit I thought he meant that they should have changed their mind today and kicked the whole thing off two hours earlier (or whatever) but maybe he meant take the decision yesterday? Who knows. Obviously forecasts get more reliable the closer to the start time.

 

Anyway, it’s a useful jumping off point. On the one hand, this would have played hell with the tv schedules but on the other, the thousands of Japanese fans would at least have seen more of the race. What do you think?

[Risil]

Indycar does this and it seems to work.

It seems to me that the inconvenience of messing with TV schedules is outweighed by the inconvenience of a massively disrupted or abandoned race.

[ensign14]

The logic is not starting a race 3.5 hours before sunset.  Works for Le Mans, not for GP.

[RedRabbit]

Indycar does this and it seems to work.

It seems to me that the inconvenience of messing with TV schedules is outweighed by the inconvenience of a massively disrupted or abandoned race.

Please don't come here with sensible ideas from other series. We all know that isn't how the FIA operate, lol.

I assume it's announced the day before?

The issue with Suzuka today was more the 3 hour rule, and starting an hour earlier would likely have had a red flag end to the race when the heavy rain started, which would have been roughly an hour and 10 minutes into the race.

Edited by RedRabbit, 09 October 2022 - 13:52.

[FLB]

Indycar does this and it seems to work.

It seems to me that the inconvenience of messing with TV schedules is outweighed by the inconvenience of a massively disrupted or abandoned race.

 

That's one more reason why streaming is the way to go for the sport, IMHO. 

[SophieB]

Indycar does this and it seems to work.

It seems to me that the inconvenience of messing with TV schedules is outweighed by the inconvenience of a massively disrupted or abandoned race.

How much room to manoeuvre do they have? I.e.what’s the most they’ve ever pulled a race start forward? Curious how much notice they gave.

[sportyskells]

Yes move the start time if forecast says it is bad was coming and this only apply to day races without lights

Edited by sportyskells, 09 October 2022 - 13:56.

[Ruusperi]

The logic is not starting a race 3.5 hours before sunset.  Works for Le Mans, not for GP.

This.

 

If the starting time is brought forward, there must an announcement given preferable 24h earlier. Would be cruel to wake up only to see the last lap, and even crueler if you paid for a ticket and planned to arrive 2pm only to find out the race is over. I don't think TV companies would fancy last-minues changes in schedule as well. Their viewers will miss the race and maybe their local tv crew are still in a hotel/bus.

 

Trouble is that you don't know 100% sure when the rain will arrive, or will it arrive at all. Last evening it still looked like it may stay dry for the race, according to some forecast models.

 

Another thing is a support class schedule, which is often very tight with F2, F3, Formula W and Porsche Supercup and their races. Not a problem in Suzuka, however.

[Mark1865]

This would have been sensible today, and a good solution when there are thunderstorms and extreme rain forecast.

However, my worry is what the definition of ‘heavy rain’ is. It could lead to the rescheduling races where a short (but intense) shower is predicted, giving us less wet races than we have even now.

[jjcale]

No - not practical. 

 

If we miss a race because weather, that's just life ...

 

Edit - there is more to life than F1 and some of those things might be affected if race times are moved around. 

Edited by jjcale, 09 October 2022 - 14:13.

[jjcale]

The logic is not starting a race 3.5 hours before sunset.  Works for Le Mans, not for GP.

 

They were doing their best to make it a good time for the Western European audience (which is still, I am guessing, at least 60% of the fanbase [and probably the revenue as well]) ... so its not an irrational thing to do - at least not from a business perspective.

 

But yeah, in sporting terms, you are probably right. 

[Risil]

How much room to manoeuvre do they have? I.e.what’s the most they’ve ever pulled a race start forward? Curious how much notice they gave.

In the two occasions this year, they moved forward the May Indy road course race forward 40 mins and the Gateway race forward half an hour.

The idea was to start the race as early within the existing TV broadcast slot as possible (normally the broadcast starts on the hour but the race begins at :30 or :40).

Memory doesn't stretch far enough back to recall anything truly radical, like a day race becoming a morning race or a night race becoming a day race. When it comes to delaying races I do remember day races that finished at night, races at Barber and Pocono that ran on a Monday, and a Texas race that finished several months later.

By this logic I think the earliest you could bring forward a Grand Prix start without messing up broadcasts would be 50 mins to an hour.

[moreland]

I'd be in favour of races always being started earlier, about 10am local time eg, at least that gives you more options in case of delays due to weather. I prefer it when races are on earlier anyway. It would mean that European races would be on at about 4am in some parts of USA I believe and there's probably other logistics issues too, there's got to be some reason that afaik no sporting fixtures are held that early. So I expect it's a bad idea but just putting it out there.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

The issue really is that you have to be absolutely 100% certain that it's going to rain (and more importantly, rain heavily enough) during the scheduled 3 hour window. It's no good if 18 hours before the race there's an 80% chance of moderate rain across 2/3hrs. How often can you be sure, with enough notice, that it's going to rain in a specific window and rain heavily enough to mean it's not safe to run, with it being guaranteed to not improve?

 

Edit: Also, is it just me or did they say that after Suzuka 2014 that races had to start at least 4hrs before sunset (for a race that isn't deliberately scheduled to be a dusk/night race)? Or am I imagining that?

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 09 October 2022 - 14:28.

[LiJu914]

No,

because

a) live audience and

b) i think even for tv audiences at least a 24h-notice would be necessary - but forecasts are still not reliable enough even for 24h-windows (there is loads of GP-weekends when the weather situation for the next day turned out way different than predicted).

Edited by LiJu914, 09 October 2022 - 14:30.

[Rediscoveryx]

The core item that needs to be resolved is wet weather racing itself.

This suggestion works as a Plan B in extreme situations, but if the door is opened I feat that we’ll soon have races moved back and forward to avoid any chance of wet weather driving (and when it rains the entire day they’ll probably cancel the whole thing).

[SophieB]

No,

because

a) live audience and

b) i think even for tv audiences at least a 24h-notice would be necessary - but forecasts are still not reliable enough even for 24h-windows (there is loads of GP-weekends when the weather situation for the next day turned out way different than predicted).

This is the big sticking point, I admit. When Otmar said this, I instantly imagined turning the race on with five minutes before lights out only to see half of it already run and what I’d think. But if they warned me in advance that this might happen, I don’t think I’d mind so much. I’d know I’d either have to get up earlier and risk watching I don’t know, the usual filler stuff of Daniel building a lawnmower with Crofty or a race suddenly kicking off at 5AM or stay asleep and take my chances.

[jonpollak]

How much room to manoeuvre do they have? I.e.what’s the most they’ve ever pulled a race start forward? Curious how much notice they gave.

They have a deal with NBC and can juggle their satellite purchase times. Unlike F1. For some reason they still use UBS and another bird that requires them to have a clear cut start and end for their time on them. You’d think that Malone would pony up and buy a bird off Elton Musk or somebody.


About 45 minutes ahead is the most they moved forward.
They post the update on Twitter,Indycar.com and NBC run a ticker at the bottom of the screen.

It works because the Indycar community is small and they actually talk to each other.

Jp

[ARTGP]

No,

because

a) live audience and

b) i think even for tv audiences at least a 24h-notice would be necessary - but forecasts are still not reliable enough even for 24h-windows (there is loads of GP-weekends when the weather situation for the next day turned out way different than predicted).

 

Which option is better?

 

a) A race that can be viewed on replay

b) No race

 

Live audiences and tv audiences will appreciate any race at all to watch on their own time, more than no race.  So from that point of view, if there is a clear opportunity to move a race that would otherwise be canceled, it should be moved. 

Edited by ARTGP, 09 October 2022 - 15:15.

[PlatenGlass]

About 10 or so years ago we had a run of bad weather and delays in the eastern countries and it was suggested that rain is more likely later in the day and that it was all Bernie's fault for pandering to European audiences. Is there any truth in this? If it means statistically less chance of monsoon rain, I don't mind races being at 3am UK time.

Maybe it was just the wrong time of day to hold a race today.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 09 October 2022 - 15:16.

[TheFish]

Live audiences being an issue is a red herring, most people who attend a race spend most of the day at the circuit.

[Risil]

They have a deal with NBC and can juggle their satellite purchase times. Unlike F1. For some reason they still use UBS and another bird that requires them to have a clear cut start and end for their time on them. You’d think that Malone would pony up and buy a bird off Elton Musk or somebody.


About 45 minutes ahead is the most they moved forward.
They post the update on Twitter,Indycar.com and NBC run a ticker at the bottom of the screen.

It works because the Indycar community is small and they actually talk to each other.

Jp

This is fascinating but I am going to require a dummy's explanation of how booking time for a satellite transmission works.

[f1kent83]

Live audiences being an issue is a red herring, most people who attend a race spend most of the day at the circuit.

Exactly it's not like football when the majority of people turn up within the hour before a game. F1 fans are there all day and if a race is moved forward by an hour or two then it would virtually make no difference to the majority.

[Frood]

In this case, yes, seeing as there was virtually no support races. On a normal European weekend with F2, F3, et. al., it wouldn't be fair on the people who work in those series to just... not have a race.

[jonpollak]

This is fascinating but I am going to require a dummy's explanation of how booking time for a satellite transmission works.

That’s DMN’s field of expertise but if I remember correctly…..
You have a yearly contract with a certain time buy guaranteed over that period. The purchase contains ’wiggle room’ for sporting events that can run over. F1 has a 4 hour window and for the life of me don’t know why they can’t extend or amend !!
Jp

[Rediscoveryx]

Exactly it's not like football when the majority of people turn up within the hour before a game. F1 fans are there all day and if a race is moved forward by an hour or two then it would virtually make no difference to the majority.

I would assume that the rescheduling would be done on Saturday at the latest. It’s not practically feasible to decide at 9 AM that the race due to be run at 3 PM should in fact be started at 10 AM. And that’s before taking the audience/spectator perspective into consideration.

[jpm2019]

They should think about the possibility to move around, also they should think about the 3 hour rule. Its stupid and robbed us of a full race today.

Most important they should fix the wet tyres. Than thos becomes a one in every 5 seasons problem.

[ensign14]

The 3 hour rule effectively had to happen anyway because Suzuka was going to get very dark.

 

The real issue is not starting the race at 1pm or 2pm local time as always used to happen.  Which gives a LOT more leeway.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

They should think about the possibility to move around, also they should think about the 3 hour rule. Its stupid and robbed us of a full race today.

Most important they should fix the wet tyres. Than thos becomes a one in every 5 seasons problem.

I disagree that the 3hr window robbed us of a full race. The light would never have allowed us to get to the full 53 laps (once they finally got going properly)

[f1kent83]

I would assume that the rescheduling would be done on Saturday at the latest. It’s not practically feasible to decide at 9 AM that the race due to be run at 3 PM should in fact be started at 10 AM. And that’s before taking the audience/spectator perspective into consideration.

I don't see any problem in making a decision on Saturday night after looking at the weather. All fans knew before today there would be weather issues and how race control deal with them.

[jpm2019]

I disagree that the 3hr window robbed us of a full race. The light would never have allowed us to get to the full 53 laps (once they finally got going properly)

Ok did not know that.

Still a stupid rule though

[ARTGP]

Live audiences being an issue is a red herring, most people who attend a race spend most of the day at the circuit.

 

and it's very hard to believe people wouldn't have already been at the circuit at noon local time on a Sunday, which would have been a good time to start the race. 

Edited by ARTGP, 09 October 2022 - 15:53.

[loki]

They have a deal with NBC and can juggle their satellite purchase times. Unlike F1. For some reason they still use UBS and another bird that requires them to have a clear cut start and end for their time on them. You’d think that Malone would pony up and buy a bird off Elton Musk or somebody.


About 45 minutes ahead is the most they moved forward.
They post the update on Twitter,Indycar.com and NBC run a ticker at the bottom of the screen.

It works because the Indycar community is small and they actually talk to each other.

Jp

 

Indeed.  There is a difference between getting 20k or so into a venue and 100k.  As a single broadcaster with several outlets Indycar is better positioned to move it to one of the other outlets like CNBC or USA.  Many F1 broadcasters don’t have that ability.  Sat time is becoming less of concern for broadcasters with modern facilities.  Much of it can be over IP at the playout level.

[Risil]

I disagree that the 3hr window robbed us of a full race. The light would never have allowed us to get to the full 53 laps (once they finally got going properly)

Actually it was the 3 hour window that gave us a full race, points wise. If they had kept racing till it got dark they'd have had to red flag it and award half or three-quarters points instead. Rules!

[F1 Mike]

What they could actually do is make every race start 1 hour earlier as standard, that then gives more daylight to get the race in

[Risil]

Anyone know the earliest start time for a Grand Prix? I have a feeling I read that the Pescara GP in 1957 got going at 9 in the morning.

[jpm2019]

Actually it was the 3 hour window that gave us a full race, points wise. If they had kept racing till it got dark they'd have had to red flag it and award half or three-quarters points instead. Rules!

Wow. This is true

[LiJu914]

Which option is better?

 

a) A race that can be viewed on replay

b) No race

 

Live audiences and tv audiences will appreciate any race at all to watch on their own time, more than no race.  So from that point of view, if there is a clear opportunity to move a race that would otherwise be canceled, it should be moved. 

 

My main point was, that in the vast majority of cases this (bolded part) is just a mere assumption at the time, when the decision has to be made.

I think "false alarms" would happen way more often and hence would do more harm than the very rare occasions, in which F1 actually has problems to go the distance (3h window doesn´t help though).

Edited by LiJu914, 09 October 2022 - 17:09.

[CoolBreeze]

I just find it amazing that the FIA behave like it's the first time they are racing at suzuka with monsoon season. Year in year out it's been more less the same issue, yet here we ware. utter pathetic

[SenorSjon]

With the 14.00 CET we used to have, every track had enough daylight for a 4 hour slot, even in autumn. And later races are run with artificial lit tracks. Another reason to ditch the silly 15.00 start time.

[Fastcake]

Yes, I think Formula One should look into it. In the modern age, where fans are not reliant on the TV to find out when a race starts it's much more practical to get the word out that the race is starting earlier. Ideally you'd check the forecast the day ahead and prepare to move forward, so you could tell everyone about the revised schedule during the qualifying session.

 

 

In this case, yes, seeing as there was virtually no support races. On a normal European weekend with F2, F3, et. al., it wouldn't be fair on the people who work in those series to just... not have a race.

That's the way of the undercard though. It's not rare for races from support series, at many motorsport events not just F1, to be cancelled in favour of the main event. I don't think it's the end of the world, ultimately they usually have multiple races anyway, and you could always try to run them after the Grand Prix if weather and light allow it.

[djparky]

How much room to manoeuvre do they have? I.e.what’s the most they’ve ever pulled a race start forward? Curious how much notice they gave.

Indy Car and NASCAR have both pulled start times forward...the most I remember is about 45 minutes...in terms of notice it's usually the day of the race

[azza200]

Starting the race at the tranditonal time 2pm local time there would be no issues just makes the later starts more risky if and when they know rain is going to cause disruptions to the race and cause delays. But bending over backwards to please the US fans and TV company's schedules is more important for F1 then common sense always the same when light and monsoon rain is predicted for a race weekend there has been countless races since 2009  light visibility etc

[Fonzey]

Live audiences being an issue is a red herring, most people who attend a race spend most of the day at the circuit.

Bingo, you might upset a few Toffs who get choppered in minutes before the race but
.. heh ho.

Need more flexibility in general. The 3 hours limit is a fine crutch to use if it looks like no running will happen, but if the skies clear and there's 2+ hours of daylight, run the whole duration!

[WonderWoman61]

Sounds like a good idea to say the least.

[pdac]

This is the big sticking point, I admit. When Otmar said this, I instantly imagined turning the race on with five minutes before lights out only to see half of it already run and what I’d think. But if they warned me in advance that this might happen, I don’t think I’d mind so much. I’d know I’d either have to get up earlier and risk watching I don’t know, the usual filler stuff of Daniel building a lawnmower with Crofty or a race suddenly kicking off at 5AM or stay asleep and take my chances.

 

I suppose they could try to move the race forward and have a media black-out so that the TV companies can show the race "as live" at the scheduled time. But I feel that it might have been vaguely possible to do something like this 15 or 20 years ago, but it's impossible now. So it's a question of whether fans would be happy to accept the consequences of looking at news outlets or social media before the scheduled start time.

[Jones Foyer]

Not possible. They can’t mess with broadcast schedules that freely.

[Flasheart]

As mentioned a couple of times, just bring the start time back 1 hour like it used to be, regardless of weather. As an Aussie, the 2300 start is annoying.
The only plus is you can watch the MotoGP race before F1.

[HP]

If a race has to brought forward, TV could offer streaming services or a later broadcast of the entire race. Also notifying users per app of a change of schedule would help too.

[ARTGP]

Not possible. They can’t mess with broadcast schedules that freely.

 

Sky F1 airs nearly 2 hours of pre-race gobbledygook every race weekend. We're already on air. Should be able to adjust for 1 hour atleast.  Fans will be at the circuit long before the race as there are other support series which race earlier in the day. I don't buy the inflexibility excuse. 

 

For trackside guest, a very simple message on their ticket can tell them to arrive at least 2 hours before the scheduled race time in case of a time change (which would be limited to no more than 1 hour earlier).  Airlines always tell you to show up, up to 90 minutes early for your flight. This is no different. 

Edited by ARTGP, 10 October 2022 - 04:16.