97 replies to this topic

[Dhillon]

Stick to the schedule. The problem is with current cars and tyres. And drivers who keep doing 200+ even after safety car or red flag is called.

[JimmyClark]

Absolutely it should be considered. If there is either a band of very heavy rain coming in later in the afternoon, or conditions like yesterday where a longer race window would be beneficial (I would bring back the 4hr rule), it should be considered.

The first priority should be fans at the track to get action they have paid for, and most likely getting soaking wet for given this will only tend to happen in rainy conditions. In fact it's probably better for spectator safety if, say, storms are predicted later on.

Second priority is the TV companies. If this was in the rules, then they can be told it might be a possibility, and many of the large ones have long pre race shows anyway. They won't suffer like live spectators would, and will probably get more viewers for a proper race than a truncated one.

F1 can build in a notification feature in its app to notify fans that the race will be earlier.

It really shouldn't be a big issue, as will only likely happen once or twice a year at most, which in 24+ races isn't too much.

[pacificquay]

Absolutely not, no, never.

 

This race started at 0600 UK time, so many viewers will have got up at 0555 or some such time.

 

It would not be acceptable for them to find they’d tuned in half way through the race, or it was already finished.

 

That would be more insulting to fans than what happened today.

[TheFish]

Absolutely not, no, never.

 

This race started at 0600 UK time, so many viewers will have got up at 0555 or some such time.

 

It would not be acceptable for them to find they’d tuned in half way through the race, or it was already finished.

 

That would be more insulting to fans than what happened today.

Not if they knew in advance it might happen.

[pacificquay]

Well that may be different, but the start time can not be moved earlier on the day itself.

 

As for those saying people can watch replays or whatever, no, sport is something that must be watched live.

[Alexis*27]

The problem is that you could end up with a boring dry race instead of an action packed race with unpredictable weather. And rain forecasting is hardly straightforward anyway - do you move the start if there are showers forecast or only frontal rain?

It's all pretty moot anyway because there is absolutely no reason yesterday's race couldn't have got going 15 minutes after they'd red flagged. They did absolutely fine with horrendous spray when they did eventually get going.

[JimmyClark]

Absolutely not, no, never.

 

This race started at 0600 UK time, so many viewers will have got up at 0555 or some such time.

 

It would not be acceptable for them to find they’d tuned in half way through the race, or it was already finished.

 

That would be more insulting to fans than what happened today.

 

Well for me it wouldn't be too much bother, as I'd just rewind to the beginning on the recording, but I see your point. 

 

However, for UK viewiers this is currently two races a year, and the chances of it happening regularly are low. 

 

Obviously other viewers around the world would be inconvenienced more often, but it will literally only be 1-2 times a season at the very most, if that. 

 

As I said, first priority has to be to the 100,000+ people sitting there at the circuit to get a motor race they have paid handsomely for. 

[Peat]

No - not practical. 

 

If we miss a race because weather, that's just life ...

 

Edit - there is more to life than F1 and some of those things might be affected if race times are moved around. 

 

It's also not very practical to ship lots of stuff and people around the world for THE event not to happen due to a rigid timetable. 

[SenorSjon]

It's also not very practical to ship lots of stuff and people around the world for THE event not to happen due to a rigid timetable. 

 

Actually, the 3 hour rule is just that. We haul everything across the globe, yet once the formation lap is underway, it needs to be finished in 3 hours time.

[MJB5990]

Like anything it depends. 

 

Take this weekend, I knew the race was set to start 06:00 UK time. Now, if the FIA decided to move the start time earlier, I'd have gotten up earlier - providing of course, I'd have known. So, yes feel free to move it forward, but give people time to find out and communicate it everywhere you can. 

 

However, the big thing is the live crowd at the track. And again, you need to give people time to adjust their plans.

[Clatter]

Indycar does this and it seems to work.

It seems to me that the inconvenience of messing with TV schedules is outweighed by the inconvenience of a massively disrupted or abandoned race.

 

While it sounds sensible we really need to see the numbers for the various scenarios.

[Clatter]

Well that may be different, but the start time can not be moved earlier on the day itself.

 

As for those saying people can watch replays or whatever, no, sport is something that must be watched live.

 

But why can't it be moved? Just because it's their current rule, isn't a good reason to be inflexible. And sport doesn't have to be watched live, many people time shift their viewing these days, and I think that will increase with more races being added to the calendar.

[Clatter]

Not possible. They can’t mess with broadcast schedules that freely.

 

They can if it's all agreed up front.

[pdac]

Not if they knew in advance it might happen.

 

That term means different things to different people. Advance to some may mean a few minutes. Advance to others may mean a week. Plus it can screw up those who've set unattended recording.

[pdac]

They can if it's all agreed up front.

 

But it won't be - or, at least, not to the level of flexibility that would be required in these sort of situations.

[Clatter]

But it won't be - or, at least, not to the level of flexibility that would be required in these sort of situations.

 

Possibly not, it would likely come with some financial penalty, but it's not impossible.

[pacificquay]

But why can't it be moved? Just because it's their current rule, isn't a good reason to be inflexible. And sport doesn't have to be watched live, many people time shift their viewing these days, and I think that will increase with more races being added to the calendar.

Proper fans of a sport watch it live. It’s not the same watching something when the outcome is already settled.

[Sterzo]

Anyone know the earliest start time for a Grand Prix? I have a feeling I read that the Pescara GP in 1957 got going at 9 in the morning.

The first ever Grand Prix in 1906 started at 6 am. The second half of the race started the following day at 5.45 am. (Other races might have started earlier. And I've followed a debatable convention in describing the 1906 GP as the first).

 

Certainly the suggestions of having an earlier starting time as a norm make a lot of sense.

[F1Gui]

If Pirelli would make decent wet weather tyres then we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is their 12th year in F1 and the tyres are still crap. I really hope Michelin or Bridgestone compete for the 2025 tyre tender as I've had enough of the cheese/high wear/thermal degradation/over heating/hard to warm up rubbish they produce.

[Clatter]

Proper fans of a sport watch it live. It’s not the same watching something when the outcome is already settled.

 

So proper fans don't have a life then? If you don't know the result, then watching time delayed is the same. Watching live doesn't change the outcome.

Edited by Clatter, 10 October 2022 - 12:50.

[Primo]

"We think there will be rain in 5 minutes, starting in T7"
The sun breakes through in T7

"There will be no more rain"
5 minutes later, it rains.

We are reasonably good at predicting weather, but not good enough to make solid plans for it. Changing the start time of a race would look silly if the rain also change its schedule.

No, instead they need to increase the 3 hour slot to 4, maybe even 5 hours, and make sure the scheduled start time + allowed time do not end in darkness (unless the track are equipped for night race).

More importantly though - they need to help Pirelli to make rain tires. Maybe there is also something that can be done about the visibility. Mud guards?

[pacificquay]

So proper fans don't have a life then? If you don't know the result, then watching time delayed is the same. Watching live doesn't change the outcome.

There’s just something intangible about it being live.

 

Watching later, even if you don’t know the result, isn’t quite the same.

[Clatter]

There’s just something intangible about it being live.

 

Watching later, even if you don’t know the result, isn’t quite the same.

 

I agree that there is something about watching live, but I don't feel the need to spend every weekend tied to the F1 schedule. I used to, but with an ever increasing calendar, changes to the time table etc. that special has become tarnished, and I'd rather spend the time with friends and family, and watch the race to my own timetable. I still watch plenty of races live, but it's just not the be all. I do object to the label "proper fan", and the notion that your not a proper fan if you don't watch live though.

Edited by Clatter, 10 October 2022 - 13:59.

[Gareth]

I rarely watch live, Sunday is a busy day and there's a group of 6 of us who watch together (one of whom has a shift on a Sunday) so it helps co-ordinate by being able to move the time to when everyone's free.

 

Always manage to avoid the result. When there are lengthy delays, it improves the experience.

 

I'll suggest to the other 5, as we sit there in our caps and t-shirts having not missed a race together for 3 seasons now, that they're not proper fans and see what they say

[Primo]

So proper fans don't have a life then? If you don't know the result, then watching time delayed is the same. Watching live doesn't change the outcome.

What??? Are you saying that holding thumb's and crossing fingers do not actually affect the result???

[Clatter]

What??? Are you saying that holding thumb's and crossing fingers do not actually affect the result???

 

It's like being told there's no Father Xmas.

[pdac]

Possibly not, it would likely come with some financial penalty, but it's not impossible.

 

Mention the term "financial penalty" to Liberty and F1 and the answer will be "it's not gonna happen".

[pdac]

Proper fans of a sport watch it live. It’s not the same watching something when the outcome is already settled.

 

'Proper fans' (as you describe them) of the sport do not contribute enough money to sustain the behemoth that is F1. Liberty have to look way beyond just the 'proper fans'.

[pdac]

"We think there will be rain in 5 minutes, starting in T7"
The sun breakes through in T7

"There will be no more rain"
5 minutes later, it rains.

We are reasonably good at predicting weather, but not good enough to make solid plans for it. Changing the start time of a race would look silly if the rain also change its schedule.

No, instead they need to increase the 3 hour slot to 4, maybe even 5 hours, and make sure the scheduled start time + allowed time do not end in darkness (unless the track are equipped for night race).

More importantly though - they need to help Pirelli to make rain tires. Maybe there is also something that can be done about the visibility. Mud guards?

 

This is the only viable suggestion to the described problem. TV companies may be willing to schedule programs that can be cancelled if a race runs over. But trying to move it forward from its assigned slot is problematic. 

[LittleChris]

Anyone know the earliest start time for a Grand Prix? I have a feeling I read that the Pescara GP in 1957 got going at 9 in the morning.

 

9.30 am start according to "The Last Road Race" by Richard Williams

[Risil]

9.30 am start according to "The Last Road Race" by Richard Williams

 

Grand Prix over, time for lunch. How civilized!

[Spillage]

If necessary they should be prepared to alter the schedule at late notice. If necessary they should be prepared to run in heavy rain.

[pdac]

Grand Prix over, time for lunch. How civilized!

 

If it were civilised, it would have an interval half-way through, where the drivers (and spectators) could have some tea and sandwiches.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I agree with those who say that the real problem is with the current package seeming unable to handle full wet running.  I used to look forward to wet races, because they would probably be exciting, but now I groan because I know some nonsense is going to happen.  Figure out what all the problems are, with tires, cars, and rules, that prevent safe running in full wet conditions, and fix it already.  I think moving the race start forward is just too impractical for F1, they don't just have NBC to work with like Indycar does.

[MikeTekRacing]

Proper fans of a sport watch it live. It’s not the same watching something when the outcome is already settled.

being ignorant of timezones...

[Clatter]

Mention the term "financial penalty" to Liberty and F1 and the answer will be "it's not gonna happen".

 

That all depends. What's the financial hit of an event having to be cancelled?

[Sterzo]

I'll suggest to the other 5, as we sit there in our caps and t-shirts having not missed a race together for 3 seasons now, that they're not proper fans and see what they say

For the avoidance of trauma amongst forum members, could you confirm the presence of trousers?

[JimmyClark]

I agree with those who say that the real problem is with the current package seeming unable to handle full wet running. I used to look forward to wet races, because they would probably be exciting, but now I groan because I know some nonsense is going to happen. Figure out what all the problems are, with tires, cars, and rules, that prevent safe running in full wet conditions, and fix it already. I think moving the race start forward is just too impractical for F1, they don't just have NBC to work with like Indycar does.

I think the cars and drivers can cope fine - we had some great driving an incredibly few mistakes after the restart. In the not so distant old days, a wet track would see cars spinning everywhere most laps it seemed.

Just now the world is becoming ever more risk adverse .

Edited by JimmyClark, 10 October 2022 - 21:10.

[Clatter]

If it were civilised, it would have an interval half-way through, where the drivers (and spectators) could have some tea and sandwiches.

 

Wet races often do.

[SophieB]

[hamilton10000]

As others have said its the sort of thing which has to be confirmed at least a day in advance so people know, which is always difficult with forecasts. Look at last weekend - up until Saturday night it looked like the rain might not even start till after the race had finished, but then on Sunday morning the forecast changed.

I think as others have said, starting races earlier and allowing longer than the 3 hours would make the most sense.

Don't really see the benefits in reducing the time, I'm sure most fans would prefer to wait longer and get to see a race, than have a 3 hour limit which means we get nothing or a very short race.

[Makingtime]

How much room to manoeuvre do they have? I.e.what’s the most they’ve ever pulled a race start forward? Curious how much notice they gave.

they ever pulled a race forward?

Not sure that has ever happened in F!

 

Could have had a delay last year by running on the next day, but there were travel and logistics issues that prevented it or whatever

[Makingtime]

This is the only viable suggestion to the described problem. TV companies may be willing to schedule programs that can be cancelled if a race runs over. But trying to move it forward from its assigned slot is problematic. 

 Not if moved forward, taped for replay,  and the tape of the race played at the former start time, in lieu of being live.....perhaps??

[messy]

Answer to thread - yes

[Bleu]

they ever pulled a race forward?

Not sure that has ever happened in F!

 

 

Happened before my time but was Dallas GP 1984 moved to earlier so they wouldn't be driving in that hot conditions?

[Collombin]

Happened before my time but was Dallas GP 1984 moved to earlier so they wouldn't be driving in that hot conditions?

I assumed the question referred to a decision made on the day itself rather than planned in advance, otherwise there would be several examples (eg Zandvoort 1970 held before the classic World Cup final kickoff).

As we only got highlights in those days it's difficult to recall when the Dallas race actually started, but the fact that Laffite turned up to warm up in pyjamas implies it was not a race day decision to start early.

Edited by Collombin, 21 October 2022 - 06:53.

[pdac]

 Not if moved forward, taped for replay,  and the tape of the race played at the former start time, in lieu of being live.....perhaps??

 

I'm sure the contracts say that they (broadcasters) get the race live. They'd have to draw up new contracts if they wanted to do this sort of thing.

 

Basically, it makes total sense for them to be flexible, but once you're a professional sport and start charging people for things, you lose a lot of the flexibility. So it comes down to whether F1 (that's all of them, not just Liberty) want fans or punters. I'm pretty sure they all want punters who pay up for whatever they provide - and that results in contracts with restrictive terms and conditions.

Edited by pdac, 21 October 2022 - 15:49.

[Ben24]

Sky F1 airs nearly 2 hours of pre-race gobbledygook every race weekend. We're already on air. Should be able to adjust for 1 hour atleast.  Fans will be at the circuit long before the race as there are other support series which race earlier in the day. I don't buy the inflexibility excuse. 

 

For trackside guest, a very simple message on their ticket can tell them to arrive at least 2 hours before the scheduled race time in case of a time change (which would be limited to no more than 1 hour earlier).  Airlines always tell you to show up, up to 90 minutes early for your flight. This is no different. 

Most people don't tune in 90 mins early to watch all pre race rubbish on Sky though. Can't imagine people would be happy with a football game starting an hour earlier than scheduled with the excuse being that "the pre-game show started an hour before the game so you should've been watching since then". Also don't think anywhere near all the fans at the track turn up for the support races.

 

The obvious solution is to push the start time earlier in the day and provide a bigger window to get the race started and finished (should be way more than a 3 hour window to get the race finished). It should be like tennis, where fans know the earliest possible time the match will start but they know they may have to wait a while if earlier matches run longer or if there is bad weather