124 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

I could tidy up that title a bit I'm sure but nonetheless I am watcing the 1993 season on the F1 app - as I am sure my VHS tapes are pretty bad having sat in my basement for 20+ years now.

 

Fiist off, I am a Prost fan, but watching Senna in the McLaren (Ford) with customer engines is simply amayzing - especially when you get to Britain! He did a great job all season with what was likely the 3rd best car on the grid (ranking Benetton higher).

 

His efforts made me think of Schumacher 1996 and 1993 for that matter.

 

Who else can we add to that list?

Edited by aportinga, 17 October 2022 - 15:39.

[mirrorboy]

Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari is an easy one

[Rediscoveryx]

The question immidiately comes to mind; how do you define ”second rate car”?

Granted that the 1993 McLaren certainly wasn’t on Williams’ level, the only car that could arguably be considered to be better was the Benetton - and that’s a very, very close call (I could see the argument go either way).

Anyway, when I read the title I was thinking more in the lines of Ivan Capelli slaying some dragons in the Leyton House back in 88-90. Or Senna himself in the Toleman of 1984.

[BerniesDad]

1. Damon nearly won a hungarian GP in an Arrows.

 

2. I thought of Ivan Capelli as well.

 

3. Pastor Maldonado. Totally out of the blue, for one day only, but the record doesn't lie.

[MJB5990]

Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari is an easy one

 

Depends how you rate Massa post-accident. I've never bought into the idea that the Ferrari was that bad. 

[Henri Greuter]

Niki Lauda in 1977

[RedRabbit]

Depends how you rate Massa post-accident. I've never bought into the idea that the Ferrari was that bad.

That F2012 was exceptionally difficult to drive, especially early season. It was wildly unpredictable.

And Massa himself has said many times that the accident had no impact on his driving, that's just one of those things that keeps floating around F1 forums without substance.

[messy]

If we’re talking genuinely second rate cars (as opposed to cars that nearly won the title), then this thread gets more interesting. For me, Giancarlo Fisichella comes to mind. He wasn’t remotely consistent in it - even in his 1997/98 “heyday” there were just as many weekends where he was totally anonymous and behind Wurz/Ralf as not - but on his day at a track like Monaco, Spa or Montreal, he could push for wins on merit in Jordans and Benettons. He could look like a wet weather maestro (Spa 97, Brazil 03), he could shadow Hakkinen all the way at Monaco 98 (people forget how close he was to Mika that day, only a clumsy clout of the barrier at the last corner dropped him back), and so on. In his later years he was still performing very well in increasingly second rate Jordans and Saubers. If he was ‘on it’ he could stick a truly midfield car on the second row and race to the podium (always second place, it seemed). He had his failed crack at the elite, dropped to a backmarker team and still proved at Spa 2009 that he could still do it on his day. So strange, but I loved it when he was having a really “on” weekend. It brought a flash of colour to the increasingly predictable Ferrari/McLaren fights at the front. In my early days of watching F1 a ‘Fisichella weekend’ was code for something really dramatic and memorable and the fact he never quite closed the deal (until Brazil 03) just added to my love for the guy.

[Burtros]

1. Damon nearly won a hungarian GP in an Arrows.

2. I thought of Ivan Capelli as well.

3. Pastor Maldonado. Totally out of the blue, for one day only, but the record doesn't lie.

All three would be my suggestions. People rubbish Hill and Maldonado too quickly on my view. Damon also got to within less than a tenth of pole at Jerez in that Arrows, for example.

Pastor ruled the world for a weekend. It was and will always be one of the greatest individual performances on an single weekend.

I do appreciate this thread may be looking for more long term achievements but I think that’s really hard in genuinely second rate machinery, that’s why you end up taking about for example Senna 93 when he still had 2nd or 3rd best car.

Those three above truly had second rate machinery and did quite exceptional things with them on merit on the days in question.

[red stick]

Stewart.  March.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Giancarlo Fisichella of course.

[Dolph]

Granted that the 1993 McLaren certainly wasn’t on Williams’ level, the only car that could arguably be considered to be better was the Benetton - and that’s a very, very close call (I could see the argument go either way).

 

Sure. In bizarro world.

[ensign14]

Clark, Lotus 43.

 

Hunt, Hesketh 308 (neither Ickx nor Jones could score points in it)/McLaren M23 (show me Mass' results in the sister car).

 

Peterson, March 761.

 

Rosberg, Williams FW08©.

 

Senna, Toleman TG184.

[Amz964]

Giancarlo Fisichella of course.

Was just gonna say about Fisi some of his drives in not great machinery was epic. Spa 2001 comes to mind.

[KWSN - DSM]

• Rosberg 1982
• De Cesaris 1983
• Senna 1984
• Capelli 1988
• Panis 1996

[Dhillon]

Max in 2020.

[piket]

Piquet in Benneton 1990. 3 rd in standings.
Mclaren was better, Ferrari was better, Williams arguably better.

Senna in Toleman 1984. Already posted by a few people , but worth mentioning again.

Keke Rosberg in 1984 Williams. That car had no right winning a race. From this list obviously most 2 nd rate car. Awful to drive. Keke stepped out in Austria mid race and said to Head that the car was too dangerous to continue driving ( chassis flexing)

[Collombin]

Ok, well if nobody else is going to mention Laffite in the 1981 Ligier taking the WDC fight right down to the wire then I will.

[Rediscoveryx]

Jean Alesi in his Tyrrell days may be worth adding as well.

[aportinga]

The question immidiately comes to mind; how do you define ”second rate car”?

Granted that the 1993 McLaren certainly wasn’t on Williams’ level, the only car that could arguably be considered to be better was the Benetton - and that’s a very, very close call (I could see the argument go either way).

Anyway, when I read the title I was thinking more in the lines of Ivan Capelli slaying some dragons in the Leyton House back in 88-90. Or Senna himself in the Toleman of 1984.

 

 Well right now Schumacher is chomping out seconds from Prosts lead in the race. Conversely once Prost got by Senna - he pulled away with no problems. The Benetton was the factory Ford team and Senna said throughout the season that the customer engine was down on power compared to it. The Benetton design would go on to win 2 WDC as well while the McLaren was a tired design in 1993.

[aportinga]

1. Damon nearly won a hungarian GP in an Arrows.

 

2. I thought of Ivan Capelli as well.

 

3. Pastor Maldonado. Totally out of the blue, for one day only, but the record doesn't lie.

 

But over the course of an entire season...

[PlatenGlass]

I think the best answers are drivers who never actually achieved that much overall. I mean, if you put a multiple-WDC-winning driver in a poor car, you'd expect them to do a good job in it. It's not really that interesting that they do. But when you have a driver like Fisichella in e.g. 2001 or 2004, he looked really good in a car that wasn't up to much. But put him in a winning car, and it doesn't happen. He is the perfect answer to this thread.

 

Also Frentzen in his early Sauber days and at Jordan in 1999 looked really good. But in the championship-winning Williams? Nah.

 

And Capelli people have also said but that is another good one.

 

Herbert also looked pretty good until he joined Schumacher at Benetton. Matched Hakkinen for speed in 1992, and saw off any other challenger at Lotus, including Zanardi. I remember people thinking he was a hero for qualifying 4th at Monza in 1994, and I heard he even thought he could win, but he was taken out by Irvine. He then went to Ligier for one race alongside Panis and outqualified and finished ahead of him. But then he (re-)joined Benetton and not very much happened, although he did get a couple of lucky wins there.

[Ultraviolet]

I think the best answers are drivers who never actually achieved that much overall. I mean, if you put a multiple-WDC-winning driver in a poor car, you'd expect them to do a good job in it. It's not really that interesting that they do. But when you have a driver like Fisichella in e.g. 2001 or 2004, he looked really good in a car that wasn't up to much. But put him in a winning car, and it doesn't happen. He is the perfect answer to this thread.

 

Also Frentzen in his early Sauber days and at Jordan in 1999 looked really good. But in the championship-winning Williams? Nah.

 

And Capelli people have also said but that is another good one.

 

Herbert also looked pretty good until he joined Schumacher at Benetton. Matched Hakkinen for speed in 1992, and saw off any other challenger at Lotus, including Zanardi. I remember people thinking he was a hero for qualifying 4th at Monza in 1994, and I heard he even thought he could win, but he was taken out by Irvine. He then went to Ligier for one race alongside Panis and outqualified and finished ahead of him. But then he (re-)joined Benetton and not very much happened, although he did get a couple of lucky wins there.

 

Yes, when I saw this threat title, Fisichella and Frentzen were the two names that came to my mind. They were both incredible at getting second rate cars to the pointy end of a race, but when given a genuinely good car, they just weren't able to extract the maximum from it. I have always been intrigued as to why that might have been. GF and H2F have always been two of my favourite drivers for the interest they brought to races with their incredible talent in cars that should not have been competing for podiums.

[Burtros]

• Rosberg 1982
• De Cesaris 1983
• Senna 1984
• Capelli 1988
• Panis 1996

Panis 1997 maybe, before the Canada crash he had been exceptional. Some of that could perhaps be put down to the Bridgestone rubber but you could say that about Damon in the arrows too.

1996 not so sure. He wasn’t on course for the Monaco GP until those in front started to fall.

Edited by Burtros, 17 October 2022 - 18:09.

[amerikalei]

Stewart.  March.

True.  And Amon, in the "factory" ride.  Seeing photos of him at speed in Spa 1970 made that car look good. 

 

Peterson came on in the following year too, in the 711 with the Spitfire-esque tea tray wing which I can't imagine would have been all that effective.

[TomNokoe]

Slightly left field but Kovalainen was wasted in the Lotus years.

[Claymore25]

Alonso in the 2012 Ferrari is an easy one

That Ferrari was a championship car, specially on sundays. His only weakness was qualy and that the second driver was an ex driver.

[ensign14]

Ok, well if nobody else is going to mention Laffite in the 1981 Ligier taking the WDC fight right down to the wire then I will.

Which in turn reminds me how well Tambay went in the Ensign, he was a tired Cossie away from getting a podium.

[Loosenut]

Frentzen in the 1999 Jordan.

[SenorSjon]

Kimi in the Lotus. It earned him a Ferrari contract.

[Aaaarrgghh]

I have to say, Prost's 1986 season was very impressive.

 

Also, I will forever be convinced that the 1994 Williams was a better car overall than the 1994 Benetton, Schumacher made the difference there.

[juicy sushi]

The question immidiately comes to mind; how do you define ”second rate car”?

Granted that the 1993 McLaren certainly wasn’t on Williams’ level, the only car that could arguably be considered to be better was the Benetton - and that’s a very, very close call (I could see the argument go either way).

Anyway, when I read the title I was thinking more in the lines of Ivan Capelli slaying some dragons in the Leyton House back in 88-90. Or Senna himself in the Toleman of 1984.

Some Olivier Panis' drives definitely warrant inclusion here along the same lines as Capelli's efforts.

[HighwayStar]

I thought Robert Kubica drove superbly in the 2010 Renault R30, regularly taking it to unexpectedly high positions. He scored points in 15 of the 16 races he finished and achieved three podium finishes including second in Australia and third in Monaco, leaving him just a few points behind Felipe Massa (in a superior Ferrari) and Nico Rosberg in the championship standings, and well ahead of Michael Schumacher in the other Mercedes. He also trounced his teammate Vitaly Petrov 16-2 in qualifying and 136-27 on points. It is a great shame that circumstances prevented him from building on this impressive campaign, which for my money was every bit as good if not better than his performances for BMW Sauber in 2008.

[Anderis]

Lots of pretty good cars considered 2nd rate, it seems.

[thefinalapex]

Kimi in the Lotus. It earned him a Ferrari contract.

 

You really rate the lotus cars of 2012-2013 as second rate?

[Claymore25]

First we should define the meaning of second rate car.

 

For example calling both Ferrari and Lotus of 2012 second rate is completely out of touch.

Edited by Claymore25, 17 October 2022 - 21:57.

[dissident]

Got to be Fisichella.

 

Not a consistent driver and definitely a choker when the expectations were higher, but he had several fantastic performances in average or downright poor cars throughout his career.

[William Hunt]

Alesi at Tyrrell '89-'90

[Nathan]

Giancarlo Fisichella of course.

 

This was my thought.  Then you put him in a great car and he was average.

[Misk]

Schumacher 96 and 97 (could even add in 98 here arguably).

[CoolBreeze]

In modern times, Alonso with practically all Ferraris. 

 

In classic times, Senna & Schumi

[LB]

Panis 1997 maybe, before the Canada crash he had been exceptional. Some of that could perhaps be put down to the Bridgestone rubber but you could say that about Damon in the arrows too.

1996 not so sure. He wasn’t on course for the Monaco GP until those in front started to fall.

Panis' Monaco drive is totally underated by many, ignoring Schumacher as he crashed, only Alesi and Hill retired in front of him ok arguably Berger too, All six cars classified behind him started in front. So was Jacques who retired from behind him

[GunnarN7]

Alonso's 08, second half, Singapore shenanigans aside, was really impressive. Could've challenged for the title with only a few more races on that level. If you combine Kubica's first half with Fernando's second you get a dominant WDC with the 3rd best car.

 

Hamilton 09 was also really good. Brawn and RBR dominated up front, but the midfield was crazy competitive with so many big name constructors and he made the difference to finish P5 and best of the rest. I genuinely think the Ferrari wasn't as bad as it looked, certainly much better than the McLaren overall. Massa was on his way to beat Kimi again before his injury, and the MP4-24 was really weak at the beginning, getting knocked out in Q1 and failing to score for 5 races straight.

Edited by GunnarN7, 18 October 2022 - 04:56.

[prty]

First we should define the meaning of second rate car.

For example calling both Ferrari and Lotus of 2012 second rate is completely out of touch.

If the 2012 Ferrari was first rate, what was the 2012 Red Bull? Zero rate?

[messy]

God, I think that 2012 Lotus was superb and probably dare I say flattered its drivers a bit. Also think that on that day in the 2012 Spanish GP the Williams was maybe the fastest thing out there. I don't think those are second rate cars at all.

Kubica 2010 is a decent call - I don't think the car was bad but he was running up with the McLarens, Red Bulls and Ferraris at times so I think it was an incredible season from him. Definitely putting that car up above its natural level.

And yeah, maybe Alonso too in 2008. Renault had been a title winning outfit so recently but they'd gone off the boil so much after he left, and the 2007/2008 cars if I remember right were just evolutions really of that title winning design and had dropped fairly steadily off the pace through those years - then back came Fernando, gave the team something to hold onto again and he started going really well in the second half of 2008. Probably thats a good example of a great driver dragging results out of a car that while not second rate, was well outdated by then.

[SenorSjon]

You really rate the lotus cars of 2012-2013 as second rate?

 

They ended up 4th in the WDC. What would define second rate?

 

First we should define the meaning of second rate car.

 

For example calling both Ferrari and Lotus of 2012 second rate is completely out of touch.

 

 

Problem with 2012 is the tire lottery when you could luck into the golden set and just go on forever. 

 

Kimi had more than double the points of Grosjean in 2012. Although Grosjean was in his first season, Kimi hasn't driven F1 in 2010 and 2011. So both began from scratch on the tire front. In 2013 it was still a big gap, even with Kimi not racing the last two races. Rumour had it he was a bit too expensive with a points based contract.

 

Sauber had a great 2012 but dropped again in 2013.

[MirNyet]

I have to say, Prost's 1986 season was very impressive.

 

Also, I will forever be convinced that the 1994 Williams was a better car overall than the 1994 Benetton, Schumacher made the difference there.

 

Depends on which menu commands the driver was entering.

[skinnyman]

I also liked Fisichella's giant killing but maybe, just maybe, those usually midfield cars were as fast on those days.

Low drag Force India was mighty around Spa and Monza in 2009 for example (but he went to Ferrari from Monza on).

[messy]

I also liked Fisichella's giant killing but maybe, just maybe, those usually midfield cars were as fast on those days.
Low drag Force India was mighty around Spa and Monza in 2009 for example (but he went to Ferrari from Monza on).

I think the 1998 Benetton was a very underrated good car, and you could probably say the same for the 1997 Jordan. But there has to be a reason Fisi was performing these giant killing acts and none of his team-mates were.

In 1997 and 1998, over the balance of the season he was probably beaten by both Ralf Schumacher and Alex Wurz as often as not. But on their really good days those two were solidly in the points, on Fisi's good days he was nearly winning races. Same with the Force India - it was him, not Sutil, who stuck it on pole and nearly won. Its not a coincidence he did all the giant killing.

[SenorSjon]

I think the 1998 Benetton was a very underrated good car, and you could probably say the same for the 1997 Jordan. But there has to be a reason Fisi was performing these giant killing acts and none of his team-mates were.

In 1997 and 1998, over the balance of the season he was probably beaten by both Ralf Schumacher and Alex Wurz as often as not. But on their really good days those two were solidly in the points, on Fisi's good days he was nearly winning races. Same with the Force India - it was him, not Sutil, who stuck it on pole and nearly won. Its not a coincidence he did all the giant killing.

 

That is the Hulkenberg Paradox in full motion.