58 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

 

https://www.autospor...chaos/10386568/

[jcbc3]

Is this still current (posted October 11 on F1.com)?

 

https://www.formula1...5642907997.html

 

Because if so, it seems pretty straightforward.

[ANF]

There's got to be a better way to say, "If two or more drivers share a temporary grid position, their relative order will be determined in accordance with their Qualifying Classification, with the slowest driver keeping their allocated temporary grid position, and the other drivers getting temporary grid positions immediately ahead of them."

Is "in the sequence of their Qualifying Classification" in (b) correct, or should it say "in the order of their Qualifying Classification"?

Perhaps (b) should explain that the highest classified driver will be allocated the highest unoccupied grid position. It actually says unpenalised divers will be allocated "any unoccupied grid position"...

Should it say "Following..." in (b) and (c ) or should it say "After.."? Are they interchangeable? Perhaps it shouldn't say anything; it has already been explained that "drivers will be allocated their grid positions in the following sequence of steps". And what if there aren't any classified drivers who have received 15 or less cumulative grid penalty places? Will the sequence begin with step (b) or will the "following" (b) have to wait for (a) to complete?

Anyway, it should definitely say "15 or less cumulative grid penalty places", not "15 or less cumulative grid penalties".

[ANF]

Let's say we have the following qualifying results and grid penalties:

P1 + 5 = temporarily P6
P2 + 5 = temporarily P7
P3 + 4 = temporarily P7
P4 + 3 = temporarily P7
P5 [no grid penalty]
P6 [no grid penalty]
P7 [no grid penalty]
P8 [no grid penalty]
...
P20 [no grid penalty]

Now the relative order of drivers sharing temporary grid position [temporarily P7] will be determined, with the slowest driver keeping their allocated temporary grid position, and the other drivers getting temporary grid positions immediately ahead of them:

P4 + 3 = temporarily P7
P3 + 4 = temporarily P6
P2 + 5 = temporarily P5

What will happen to
P1 + 5 = temporarily P6
?

Edited by ANF, 19 October 2022 - 22:45.

[pdac]

My brain hurts.

[JvsKVB77]

Let's say we have the following qualifying results and grid penalties:

P1 + 5 = temporarily P6
P2 + 5 = temporarily P7
P3 + 4 = temporarily P7
P4 + 3 = temporarily P7
P5 [no grid penalty]
P6 [no grid penalty]
P7 [no grid penalty]
P8 [no grid penalty]
...
P20 [no grid penalty]

Now the relative order of drivers sharing temporary grid position [temporarily P7] will be determined, with the slowest driver keeping their allocated temporary grid position, and the other drivers getting temporary grid positions immediately ahead of them:

P4 + 3 = temporarily P7
P3 + 4 = temporarily P6
P2 + 5 = temporarily P5

What will happen to
P1 + 5 = temporarily P6
?

 

Same procedure again, i think

P4 + 3 = temporarily P7 = temporarily P7

P3 + 4 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P6

P1 + 5 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P5

P2 + 5 = temporarily P5 = temporarily P5

 

And then again so P1+5 will be temporarily P4. By the way, i can not remember case when was 4 grid drop penalty. 

Edited by JvsKVB77, 20 October 2022 - 02:38.

[Bleu]

Same procedure again, i think

P4 + 3 = temporarily P7 = temporarily P7

P3 + 4 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P6

P1 + 5 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P5

P2 + 5 = temporarily P5 = temporarily P5

 

And then again so P1+5 will be temporarily P4. By the way, i can not remember case when was 4 grid drop penalty. 

 

Neither have I, but I recall seeing 3-place-penalty and 1-place-penalty so these combined would be 4.

[ANF]

Same procedure again, i think
P4 + 3 = temporarily P7 = temporarily P7
P3 + 4 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P6
P1 + 5 = temporarily P6 = temporarily P5
P2 + 5 = temporarily P5 = temporarily P5
 
And then again so P1+5 will be temporarily P4. By the way, i can not remember case when was 4 grid drop penalty.

So P1's penalty of 5 places will become a penalty of 3 places.
I guess that's how it works already?

[JvsKVB77]

So P1's penalty of 5 places will become a penalty of 3 places.
 

On the other hand he will start after the driver, which quali position was 7) 

 

I guess that's how it works already?

Yes, but I am not sure, maybe in rules was some questions. 

[Ben1980]

It can't be hard to write a rule that says you start where your penalty places you, unless more then one on that position, then based on fastest qualifying against each other. All other spaces filled in by those without penalties.

[KWSN - DSM]

I do not have the mental acuity to grasp these clarifications.

[RasmVest]

Formula 1 should drop grid penalties and use in-race time penalties instead. This would also ensure every penalty is actually served how it should be. At the moment drivers with a grid penalty will benefit if other drivers have larger penalties, so their own penalty will not be completely served. I think in Monza Bottas got a 15-place penalty, but because of all the other penalties he actually started ahead of his qualifying position. That makes no sense because then he's not even penalized... This grid penalty system is just madness and it will still be gamed by the big teams when they see an advantage of taking a penalty at specific circuits.

[pdac]

It can't be hard to write a rule that says you start where your penalty places you, unless more then one on that position, then based on fastest qualifying against each other. All other spaces filled in by those without penalties.

 

You simply need to describe the order in which the penalties will be applied. Then you just take the current grid order and apply the first penalty to reorder the cars, then take this new grid order and apply the next penalty and continue until you're done. The only thing that matters is the order in which you apply the penalties.

[SpeedRacer`]

I take umbrage with the word "clarified" here 

 

This is what I would do:

 

Everyone qualifies and is assigned a number 1-20 based on their position.

 

1 Ver

2 Lec

3 Sai

 

etc

 

Any penalties are applied, e.g.:

 

1

2

3+10 (13)

4+3 (7)

5+20 (25)

6

 

etc

 

Then you line people up in order from smallest to largest.

 

Any gaps, everyone moves forward one.

 

If people on the same number (e.g. 13 and 3+10), then driver with no penalty gets preference, followed by the driver who was quickest in qually if 2 penalised drivers have the same number.

 

This way, the order of penalties applied makes no difference and is the fairest, IMO.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I’ve kind of given up with grid positions now, despite always watching qualifying. Interesting to see who is on pole and the first row or two, then it becomes a bit of a mish-mash as you go further down the grid.

[PlatenGlass]

I was talking to a friend a while ago about this and how it "should" be done. His argument was that there shouldn't be any order to it - you just move cars back one place at a time together, until they've run out of penalty places. And going back a place means moving behind another car, not a grid space that's been emptied by someone else moving back. (You can insert imaginery cars at the back of the grid if need be and remove them afterwards.) You won't get these stupid ties in that case.

 

There was a race where Bottas qualified 3rd but ended up 6th because of a 3-place grid penalty, but his argument was that he should have started 5th because Vertappen's penalty meant that Bottas would have started 2nd without the penalty, so he was essentially penalised 4 places. This makes sense, since drivers move relative to each other. You don't simply assert that they should be in position x + y = z.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 20 October 2022 - 11:27.

[JvsKVB77]

Formula 1 should drop grid penalties and use in-race time penalties instead. This would also ensure every penalty is actually served how it should be. At the moment drivers with a grid penalty will benefit if other drivers have larger penalties, so their own penalty will not be completely served. I think in Monza Bottas got a 15-place penalty, but because of all the other penalties he actually started ahead of his qualifying position. That makes no sense because then he's not even penalized... This grid penalty system is just madness and it will still be gamed by the big teams when they see an advantage of taking a penalty at specific circuits.

If 1 grid place will be equal to 1 second penalty full power unit change maybe around 70 seconds time penalty and without SC even top teams drivers will not have any chances. 

[Claymore25]

I do not have the mental acuity to grasp these clarifications.

Exactly this.

 

I don't bother anymore with this clarifications.

[Myrvold]

Grid Penalty Procedure Confusified*

[pdac]

Formula 1 should drop grid penalties and use in-race time penalties instead. This would also ensure every penalty is actually served how it should be. At the moment drivers with a grid penalty will benefit if other drivers have larger penalties, so their own penalty will not be completely served. I think in Monza Bottas got a 15-place penalty, but because of all the other penalties he actually started ahead of his qualifying position. That makes no sense because then he's not even penalized... This grid penalty system is just madness and it will still be gamed by the big teams when they see an advantage of taking a penalty at specific circuits.

 

Just give everyone a 30 grid-place penalty, so that everyone with a penalty moves (in the same order) behind the last car that does not have a grid penalty.

[RedRabbit]

Formula 1 should drop grid penalties and use in-race time penalties instead. This would also ensure every penalty is actually served how it should be. At the moment drivers with a grid penalty will benefit if other drivers have larger penalties, so their own penalty will not be completely served. I think in Monza Bottas got a 15-place penalty, but because of all the other penalties he actually started ahead of his qualifying position. That makes no sense because then he's not even penalized... This grid penalty system is just madness and it will still be gamed by the big teams when they see an advantage of taking a penalty at specific circuits.

Agreed. The Bottas situation (in Spa?) was even worse in that he qualified dead last with his 15 place penalty, but started ahead of Verstappen who qualified P1.

Grid penalties are seriously stupid. I like how MotoGP does it with an in-race penalty, normally a long lap, that must be served within a few laps from start.

It, ironically, also adds more to "The Show". And it's more of an equal penalty for everyone.

Edited by RedRabbit, 20 October 2022 - 14:36.

[RedRabbit]

If 1 grid place will be equal to 1 second penalty full power unit change maybe around 70 seconds time penalty and without SC even top teams drivers will not have any chances.

It's a little harsh on the PU penalty of 70s, but I like this idea.

Under this idea, a very relevant penalty on a full PU change might be a Pit Drive Through within 5 laps of the start.

That would definitely make even the top team think a lot harder about just changing components. 5 laps is enough to get an awkward field spread if you need a Drive Through, and might actually compromise a drivers race properly.

[ExFlagMan]

How long before we get race start delayed while RC attempt to sort out the grid positions....

[Broekschaap]

Anyone worked out Spa with this system? To me it looks weird you get a better spot when someone else also got a penalty ends up in the same position.

[JvsKVB77]

Anyone worked out Spa with this system?

As i see only change will be that Bottas will be in same situation with others penalised drivers, so he would not able just be a tow-man for Zhou to start higher than last place. Because now all grid penalties(PU, gearbox and sporting) are summing.

Edited by JvsKVB77, 20 October 2022 - 15:11.

[HP]

FIA. Please develop an app, that works these things out for everyone. How hard can it be?

 

This "clarification" is IMO a good example how the rule makers have lost the plot. Lost in details that are mostly meaningless for many people. They need someone who is familiar with the term KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). And that starts with all the penalties being handed out.

 

At least myself, I watch F1 not for the penalties, but for the racing.

 

 

 

If someone has screwed on their head the right or left way, doesn't matter very much for me j/k

[ExFlagMan]

FIA. Please develop an app, that works these things out for everyone. How hard can it be?

 

This "clarification" is IMO a good example how the rule makers have lost the plot. Lost in details that are mostly meaningless for many people. They need someone who is familiar with the term KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). And that starts with all the penalties being handed out.

 

At least myself, I watch F1 not for the penalties, but for the racing.

 

 

 

If someone has screwed on their head the right or left way, doesn't matter very much for me j/k

 

Can you run apps on a Cray computer?

[Broekschaap]

As i see only change will be that Bottas will be in same situation with others penalised drivers, so he would not able just be a tow-man for Zhou to start higher than last place. Because now all grid penalties(PU, gearbox and sporting) are summing.

Ah thanks i was wondering of other drivers would be pushed forwards on the grid like in the example posted earlier

[JvsKVB77]

Ah thanks i was wondering of other drivers would be pushed forwards on the grid like in the example posted earlier

No, all drivers (and now Bottas too) will have more than 15 grid drop places,so all of them will be start after non-penalised drivers in qualifying order. 

[Dolph]

The way to think about penalties in an easy way is this:

Qualy winners position is not 1, but 1.01
2nd place position is 2.02
3rd is 3.03
4th is 4.04, etc.


Every 3 place grid drop gives you not +3, but +3.20
Every 5 place grid drop gives you not +5, but +5.20

So

Then, lets say qualy winner gets a 5 place penalty, 3rd place in qualy gets a 3 place penalty. This is how it plays out:

2.02
4.04
5.05
6.06
1.01+5.20=6.21
3.03+3.20=6.23
7.07
8.08

Etc.

[Risil]

You're right, that was easy!

[Broekschaap]

You're right, that was easy!

I am with you. Just nod and say you understand. Then leave the room.

 

The way to think about penalties in an easy way is this:

Qualy winners position is not 1, but 1.01
2nd place position is 2.02
3rd is 3.03
4th is 4.04, etc.


Every 3 place grid drop gives you not +3, but +3.20
Every 5 place grid drop gives you not +5, but +5.20

So

Then, lets say qualy winner gets a 5 place penalty, 3rd place in qualy gets a 3 place penalty. This is how it plays out:

2.02
4.04
5.05
6.06
1.01+5.20=6.21
3.03+3.20=6.23
7.07
8.08

Etc.

Thanks i understand. Really i do.

[Risil]

I am with you. Just nod and say you understand. Then leave the room.

 

Nobody can ever know the truth

[PlatenGlass]

The way to think about penalties in an easy way is this:

Qualy winners position is not 1, but 1.01
2nd place position is 2.02
3rd is 3.03
4th is 4.04, etc.


Every 3 place grid drop gives you not +3, but +3.20
Every 5 place grid drop gives you not +5, but +5.20

So

Then, lets say qualy winner gets a 5 place penalty, 3rd place in qualy gets a 3 place penalty. This is how it plays out:

2.02
4.04
5.05
6.06
1.01+5.20=6.21
3.03+3.20=6.23
7.07
8.08

Etc.

Not sure it works. If everyone except 20th gets a one-place penalty then 20th should get pole and everyone else goes down 1. However, your system would not give that result. Only 19th place would effectively get a penalty.

[Dolph]

Im not at all convinced thats how it should play out. Why would 20th place get pole if qualy winner gets 1 place grid drop!?

Edited by Dolph, 20 October 2022 - 17:02.

[Broekschaap]

Im not at all convinced thats how it should play out. Why would 20th place get pole if qualy winner gets 1 place grid drop!?

I guess because pole is the only spot not allocated.

[JvsKVB77]

Im not at all convinced thats how it should play out. Why would 20th place get pole if qualy winner gets 1 place grid drop!?

New rules says, that if first 19 drivers have 1 grid drop, 20th will start first. 

[genius83]

As usual FIA have just made it more complicated then before, well done FIA  

[Broekschaap]

Trying to figure this out: same scenario but the driver on pole has a 15 place penalty, the others one plae and the number 20 none. The driver on pole with a 15 place penalty still ends up on front row on second place?

[JvsKVB77]

Trying to figure this out: same scenario but the driver on pole has a 15 place penalty, the others one plae and the number 20 none. The driver on pole with a 15 place penalty still ends up on front row on second place?

I think this must work this way, but not sure.

[Broekschaap]

I think this must work this way, but not sure.

<nicely made table>

That was my other option. I am not sure if you go into a loop cell by cell or push the whole column up.

[KWSN - DSM]

Think I figured it out.

 

[ANF]

The way to think about penalties in an easy way is this:

Qualy winners position is not 1, but 1.01
2nd place position is 2.02
3rd is 3.03
4th is 4.04, etc.


Every 3 place grid drop gives you not +3, but +3.20
Every 5 place grid drop gives you not +5, but +5.20

So

Then, lets say qualy winner gets a 5 place penalty, 3rd place in qualy gets a 3 place penalty. This is how it plays out:

2.02
4.04
5.05
6.06
1.01+5.20=6.21
3.03+3.20=6.23
7.07
8.08

Etc.

Totally off-topic, but I recently realised that the use of decimals is (probably?) the easiest way to calculate championship standings and keep track of number of wins, second places, third places and so on.

So Verstappen tops the current standings on 366 points and eleven wins, one second places and one third place:
Verstappen 366.11010100000002
Pérez 253.020700030201
Leclerc 252.030403020103
etc.

A driver that finishes Px will be awarded the usual championship points and an additional 1∕10^2x points.

This came in handy ahead of the FIA F3 championship decider where six drivers could win the title.

[Dolph]

Totally off-topic, but I recently realised that the use of decimals is (probably?) the easiest way to calculate championship standings and keep track of number of wins, second places, third places and so on.

So Verstappen tops the current standings on 366 points and eleven wins, one second places and one third place:
Verstappen 366.11010100000002
Pérez 253.020700030201
Leclerc 252.030403020103
etc.

A driver that finishes Px will be awarded the usual championship points and an additional 1∕10^2x points.

This came in handy ahead of the FIA F3 championship decider where six drivers could win the title.

This is exactly what I did when calculating the IndyCar standings this year and working out championship scenarios, only I neede to use one decimal, as nobody had a repeat of one position reaching ten.

This way you dont need anything special in excel, just allocate the points with decimals.

Edited by Dolph, 20 October 2022 - 22:54.

[ANF]

This is exactly what I did when calculating the IndyCar standings this year and working out championship scenarios, only I neede to use one decimal, as nobody had a repeat of one position reaching ten.

This way you dont need anything special in excel, just allocate the points with decimals.

I made a spreadsheet for the final FIA F3 round but then I forgot to update it in time for the Indycar finale. Anyway, I wish I had figured this out a long time ago.

[Dolph]

Me too. It was the first year I thought of this.

[Barty]

You simply need to describe the order in which the penalties will be applied. Then you just take the current grid order and apply the first penalty to reorder the cars, then take this new grid order and apply the next penalty and continue until you're done. The only thing that matters is the order in which you apply the penalties.

No. That is the whole point, the order does not matter. If you get a penalty, you should drop that number of places on the grid, maximum. The only thing that would possibly move you up from that penalised grid position is if there are more than one penalised driver that would occupy that grid slot (i.e. P2 with grid penalty of 5 and P4 with grid penalty of 3, landing them both in P7, P2 would then be promoted to P6 due being faster in qualifying), or there are empty gaps in the provisional grid when the penalties have been applied.

 

In other words, the application of penalties is a three-step process, starting with the qualifying result.

Step 1: Apply all the penalties to an empty grid, and resolve any potential resulting ties.

Step 2: Insert all unpenalised drivers into the empty slots in the resulting grid, from the top, based on the qualifying result.

Step 3: Move drivers up to fill the holes in the grid.

Done.

 

How this was done for the Italian GP is illustrated in the attached image.

https://www.dropbox....2 grid.JPG?dl=0

Edited by Barty, 21 October 2022 - 11:59.

[Barty]

I think this must work this way, but not sure.

Yep, that is correct.

[Barty]

I take umbrage with the word "clarified" here 

 

This is what I would do:

 

Everyone qualifies and is assigned a number 1-20 based on their position.

 

1 Ver

2 Lec

3 Sai

 

etc

 

Any penalties are applied, e.g.:

 

1

2

3+10 (13)

4+3 (7)

5+20 (25)

6

 

etc

 

Then you line people up in order from smallest to largest.

 

Any gaps, everyone moves forward one.

 

If people on the same number (e.g. 13 and 3+10), then driver with no penalty gets preference, followed by the driver who was quickest in qually if 2 penalised drivers have the same number.

 

This way, the order of penalties applied makes no difference and is the fairest, IMO.

That is the fully correct interpretation.

[PlatenGlass]

Logically, they should award in favour of the driver who qualified lower in a tie-break, but not because they qualified lower - it just turns out to be more logical!

 

If you're sending drivers down the order, you don't do it in a vacuum - it has the consequence of moving other people up. If someone qualifies 5th and loses 10 places, you don't declare that there must be a tie-break between them and whoever actually qualified 15th. You just physically move them down down places and whoever qualified 15th will end up 14th. Note here that if you do view it in terms of a tie-break it's the driver who initially qualified lower who takes precedence, so that should give you a clue for other cases.

 

To look at a simple case, pole guy gets a 2-place penalty and 2nd gets a 1-place penalty. Using the FIA method of adding numbers up in a vacuum, they both get given position 3 but then the original pole guy wins the tie-break and ends up 2nd, so escapes half his penalty. The guy who initially qualified second would have started first without his penalty, so he's effectively been given a two-place penalty.

 

Using the logical system, you physically move them both one place back to start with (use toy cars if you want) and they end up 2nd and 3rd with the original 3rd guy now 1st. The original pole guy still has to go back one further place, so he swaps back down to third with original 2nd guy now second. This is logical, because you view their penalty in terms of where they would have started had they not got a penalty. Both drivers have been given the appropriate penalty.

 

This is not what the FIA do of course, because they've tied themselves up in knots with it and have no idea how to extract themselves.