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Grid Penalty Procedure Clarified


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#51 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 October 2022 - 15:12

Logically, they should award in favour of the driver who qualified lower in a tie-break, but not because they qualified lower - it just turns out to be more logical!

 

If you're sending drivers down the order, you don't do it in a vacuum - it has the consequence of moving other people up. If someone qualifies 5th and loses 10 places, you don't declare that there must be a tie-break between them and whoever actually qualified 15th. You just physically move them down down places and whoever qualified 15th will end up 14th. Note here that if you do view it in terms of a tie-break it's the driver who initially qualified lower who takes precedence, so that should give you a clue for other cases.

 

To look at a simple case, pole guy gets a 2-place penalty and 2nd gets a 1-place penalty. Using the FIA method of adding numbers up in a vacuum, they both get given position 3 but then the original pole guy wins the tie-break and ends up 2nd, so escapes half his penalty. The guy who initially qualified second would have started first without his penalty, so he's effectively been given a two-place penalty.

 

Using the logical system, you physically move them both one place back to start with (use toy cars if you want) and they end up 2nd and 3rd with the original 3rd guy now 1st. The original pole guy still has to go back one further place, so he swaps back down to third with original 2nd guy now second. This is logical, because you view their penalty in terms of where they would have started had they not got a penalty. Both drivers have been given the appropriate penalty.

 

This is not what the FIA do of course, because they've tied themselves up in knots with it and have no idea how to extract themselves.

 

That's the way.



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#52 Barty

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Posted 21 October 2022 - 15:15

Logically, they should award in favour of the driver who qualified lower in a tie-break, but not because they qualified lower - it just turns out to be more logical!

 

If you're sending drivers down the order, you don't do it in a vacuum - it has the consequence of moving other people up. If someone qualifies 5th and loses 10 places, you don't declare that there must be a tie-break between them and whoever actually qualified 15th. You just physically move them down down places and whoever qualified 15th will end up 14th. Note here that if you do view it in terms of a tie-break it's the driver who initially qualified lower who takes precedence, so that should give you a clue for other cases.

 

To look at a simple case, pole guy gets a 2-place penalty and 2nd gets a 1-place penalty. Using the FIA method of adding numbers up in a vacuum, they both get given position 3 but then the original pole guy wins the tie-break and ends up 2nd, so escapes half his penalty. The guy who initially qualified second would have started first without his penalty, so he's effectively been given a two-place penalty.

 

Using the logical system, you physically move them both one place back to start with (use toy cars if you want) and they end up 2nd and 3rd with the original 3rd guy now 1st. The original pole guy still has to go back one further place, so he swaps back down to third with original 2nd guy now second. This is logical, because you view their penalty in terms of where they would have started had they not got a penalty. Both drivers have been given the appropriate penalty.

 

This is not what the FIA do of course, because they've tied themselves up in knots with it and have no idea how to extract themselves.

 

No, that makes no sense at all. The P2 guy would start P2 and therefore not be penalised at all. With the FIA method you will be penalised, in one way or another, and if your penalty ends up less than intended (Poleman starts P2 instead of P3 in your example) it is because you qualified better than the other one(s) in the tiebreak, or that you qualified so low that you benefit from gaps in the grid when penalties are applied (i.e. PER, OCO, BOT, MAG, MSC in Italy). But, more importantly, the non-penalised drivers benifit. Which makes sense.
 


Edited by Barty, 21 October 2022 - 15:21.


#53 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 October 2022 - 15:16

No, that makes no sense at all. The P2 guy would start P2 and therefore not be penalised at all. With the FIA method you will be penalised, in one way or another, and if your penalty ends up less than intended (Poleman starts P2 instead of P3 in your example) it is because you qualified better than the other one in the tiebreak. But, more importantly, the non-penalised drivers benifit. Which makes sense.
 

 

Ohhhh now I am back to square one.



#54 RedRabbit

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 11:56

I wish they would just do time penalties rather.

#55 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 12:15

No, that makes no sense at all. The P2 guy would start P2 and therefore not be penalised at all. With the FIA method you will be penalised, in one way or another, and if your penalty ends up less than intended (Poleman starts P2 instead of P3 in your example) it is because you qualified better than the other one(s) in the tiebreak, or that you qualified so low that you benefit from gaps in the grid when penalties are applied (i.e. PER, OCO, BOT, MAG, MSC in Italy). But, more importantly, the non-penalised drivers benifit. Which makes sense.
 

 

It makes sense. The P2 guy would have started first without a penalty, so he's been penalised by one place which is correct. People don't move up and down in a vacuum. For someone to lose a place, someone has to gain.



#56 PlatenGlass

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 12:15

Ohhhh now I am back to square one.

 

No, no - it's fine.



#57 pdac

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 15:33

Nothing makes sense. They should just get rid of grid penalties as a means of punishing offences.



#58 Kilted Wanderer

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 23:27

Anyone want to have a go at working it out?



#59 ANF

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Posted 22 October 2022 - 23:47

Anyone want to have a go at working it out?

Sure!

We have four classified drivers who have received 15 or less cumulative grid penalties penalty points:

ALO +5
PER +5
ZHO +5
LEC +10

They will be allocated a temporary grid position equal to their Qualifying Classification plus the sum of their grid penalties:

ALO P9 + 5 = P14
PER P4 + 5 = P9
ZHO P14 + 5 = P19
LEC P2 + 10 = P12

Following (?) the allocation of temporary grid positions to these penalised drivers, unpenalised drivers will be allocated any (?!) unoccupied grid position, in the sequence (?) of their Qualifying Classification.

Assuming we shall begin with Carlos Sainz from the top:

SAI P1
VER P2
HAM P3
RUS P4
STR P5
NOR P6
BOT P7
ALB P8
 [PER P9]
VET P10
GAS P11
 [LEC P12]
TSU P13
 [ALO P14]
MAG P15
RIC P16
OCO P17
MSC P18
 [ZHO P19]
LAT P20

End.


Edited by ANF, 22 October 2022 - 23:49.