54 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

Adrian looks so chuffed at this car of his. Now his most successful car in terms of wins.

[Disgrace]

Adrian looks so chuffed at this car of his. Now his most successful car in terms of wins.

 

Interesting one. Definitely his most successful, but hard to argue the outright best in terms of performance given the way Ferrari capitulated this year. It's hardly a 1993 or 1996 Williams. It's not even as dominant as the 2011 or 2013 Red Bulls.

[Ali_G]

Interesting one. Definitely his most successful, but hard to argue the outright best in terms of performance given the way Ferrari capitulated this year. It's hardly a 1993 or 1996 Williams. It's not even as dominant as the 2011 or 2013 Red Bulls.

I would say that the success of the 93 Williams could be pinned on the active suspension coupled with the Renault engine more than its aero. That and the dreadful Ford engine in the back of the McLaren.

[F1Gui]

I would say that the success of the 93 Williams could be pinned on the active suspension coupled with the Renault engine more than its aero. That and the dreadful Ford engine in the back of the McLaren.

That dreadful Cosworth V8 engine won the drivers championship the following year. It may not have had the power of the Renault V10 but it was still decent in its own right.

[Ali_G]

That dreadful Cosworth V8 engine won the drivers championship the following year. It may not have had the power of the Renault V10 but it was still decent in its own right.

No it didn’t. The V8 in the McLaren was not the engine in the Benetton for most of the season. The one in the McLaren had less bhp than the one in the Benetton. I think McLaren did get the full fat engine but that was towards the end of the season. That engine was a lump.

Edited by Ali_G, 22 October 2022 - 23:25.

[Risil]

Now with poll!

[Ev0d3vil]

LH in the Ferrari would have challenged RB more often..

[PlatenGlass]

In terms of performance, it's hard to see past the 1992 Williams FW14B.

Edit - for one perspective, when else has someone that far off his team-mate finished second in the WDC?

Edited by PlatenGlass, 24 October 2022 - 14:59.

[Risil]

Adrian looks so chuffed at this car of his. Now his most successful car in terms of wins.

 

FW14 won 17 races in 1991 and 1992 I think. The RB18 is set to overtake this by the end of the year unless Leclerc can do something.

 

Lotus 72 won 20 Grands Prix at my count though, the RB18 will not match that.

[Scaboo22]

Car isn't even the fastest in this year's field. They developed it into a strong race car with good tire management but that Ferrari is still the faster car, but with tyre deg issues.

[Scaboo22]

LH in the Ferrari would have challenged RB more often..

 

Only if he would have taken over strategy calls from early on. Else, it's pretty much the same season maybe excluding the DNF in France. 

[scheivlak]

FW14 won 17 races in 1991 and 1992 I think. The RB18 is set to overtake this by the end of the year unless Leclerc can do something.

 

 

 

Red Bull took 6 poles this year compared with Ferrari's 12.

 

Compare that with the # of Williams poles from 1992 and 1993.....

[Risil]

If you looked at pole positions alone you might come to the conclusion that the 2002 Williams-BMW was a match for the Ferrari.

[PayasYouRace]

FW14 won 17 races in 1991 and 1992 I think. The RB18 is set to overtake this by the end of the year unless Leclerc can do something.

Lotus 72 won 20 Grands Prix at my count though, the RB18 will not match that.

I suppose that is a valid way of looking at it. I’d tend to separate variants with letter suffixes as different cars.

[Primo]

Maybe his biggest challenge, considering the regulations are so tight. To make such a difference within the available scope is remarkable. 

[Collombin]

I suppose that is a valid way of looking at it. I’d tend to separate variants with letter suffixes as different cars.

Yeah, I think the McLaren MP4/2 probably won more over the 1984-86 period but fails that test.

[Primo]

Poll is wrong, we cannot answer simply "Yes"

[Risil]

Poll is wrong, we cannot answer simply "Yes"

No I thought about that, you can choose the RB18 down at the bottom.

[Primo]

No I thought about that, you can choose the RB18 down at the bottom.

"If not, which one was?"

So still wrong. Anyway, maybe you change to  "RB18 (2022 model)" for people like me that do not memorize model numbers? 
You can also remove the "Yes/No" part ;)

Edited by Primo, 24 October 2022 - 15:30.

[Risil]

As polls go it's clearly more McLaren MP4/19 than Williams FW14 but you appear to have mastered its tricky spots.

[jpm2019]

With no Max and another driver like Perez this topic would not exist. 

[Myrvold]

Edit - for one perspective, when else has someone that far off his team-mate finished second in the WDC?

This is very "aChTuAlLy" meme.

Percentage-wise 92 and 97 is the same. Though, 97's 1-2 is... well. Records show it is a 1-2.

[Myrvold]

Red Bull took 6 poles this year compared with Ferrari's 12.

Compare that with the # of Williams poles from 1992 and 1993.....

However. Back then it was no parc ferme setups. It was qual engines etc.
You could have a car that was both 100% a quali car, and race car. Thats harder today.

[Primo]

As polls go it's clearly more McLaren MP4/19 than Williams FW14 but you appear to have mastered its tricky spots.

 

Since the question is: "Is the..." and the option is "No, it really was..." it, IMO, hints at another car. Yes, question itself contains the model number, but the time that passes between reading the question and arriving to the last option can be measured in cups of coffee.

[Baddoer]

I think FW18 had most edge over competition. On normal day it had 30-40 seconds over the rest. Sure, Vettel looked unstoppable in RB9, but Mercedes and even Ferrari were able to beat him sometimes in terms of speed from time to time.

MP4/13 initally looked like monster, but Ferrari managed somehow to give it a good fight.

MP4/20 was fast but equally fragile and managed to lose both championship, hardly a success.

[PayasYouRace]

I’ve got a soft spot for the FW18 of course, and it was a brilliant car.

[Clrnc]

Interesting one. Definitely his most successful, but hard to argue the outright best in terms of performance given the way Ferrari capitulated this year. It's hardly a 1993 or 1996 Williams. It's not even as dominant as the 2011 or 2013 Red Bulls.

It's definitely not dominant, hardly ever get any poles too. It's more often at how Ferrari give away their race wins easily. More than half of Max wins was down to Ferrari. 

[messy]

Nah, FW14B for me.

Edited by messy, 24 October 2022 - 15:54.

[P123]

So many to choose from.  I'd guess this year is probably top 5, maybe final step on the podium behind the FW14B and the FW18, fighting it out with the RB9.  Matched in qualifying, but ticks all the boxes for raceability- easy on tyres, beautiful handling and unmatched aero efficiency that makes it a bit of a beast on raceday.  And despite the early race hiccups, it has a level of reliability that not all of Newey's previous creations have had (thanks in part to his unsympathetic packaging).

[Jones Foyer]

I wanted to say that the engine finally lives up to the chassis- it's hard to judge how good his cars were in previous seasons if they weren't flattered by a great engine, but judging by the tirewear, its ability to manage the whole porpoising issue with aplomb, I will readily say this cold definitely be his best.

[OO7]

Another thing to consider are the new regs for 2022.  They have made winning less difficult if you have a fast car, because overtaking is easier.

[juicy sushi]

I think that this year's car is not really one of his best, just that his competition this year have wasted their own car.  If Red Bull were running this year's Ferrari, and Ferrari were running this year's RB18, I think Red Bull still have the title wound up, because the problem is the pony team, not the pony car (pun very much intended).

 

In terms of his all-time best, I voted for the FW15, as I think it was a better design than the 14, as shown by Prost winning the title while essentially not even trying, although the FW14, FW18, M/P4-13, and RB7 were also nearly as impressive in their pace advantage over the competition.  

Edited by juicy sushi, 24 October 2022 - 17:18.

[Heyli]

Let's please not turn this thread into another Cost Cap discussion, there is another thread available for that.

[Calum]

I was surprised how underrated RB7 (2011) is in this vote.


It's not the most dominant but it's still a very impressive bit of kit.
Arguably was down to its aerodynamics lifting it to a big performance gap more than the other class cars that Newey designed. Ones which had their own 'unique computer tech' or 'power advantage' over the field.


18 out of 19 pole positions. 
12 out of 19 victories.
5 second places in those 7 it didn't win.


Debating points for a car I didn't even vote for...     It deserves to be highlighted, an excellent machine.

[Henri Greuter]

I am surprised that the March 86C is not on the shortlist.

 

The only type of car that won multiple Indy 500's in the 80's ('86 and '87) and at least one example of it made it in 4 succesive 500s

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 October 2022 - 18:24.

[Anderis]

I don't have much to say about which car is the best but I've only just realised Red Bull was the fastest car (well, the car with the fastest time) in only 36,8% of all qualifying sessions this year. That's incredibly low for such a dominant championship and perhaps a sign this car is not quite as great as one could think but the opposition just dropepd the ball in the races a lot.

 

Was there ever a championship won in a similarly dominant fashion by a car that didn't even have the most pole positions that year?

[Risil]

I am surprised that the March 86C is not on the shortlist.

The only type of car that won multiple Indy 500's in the 80's ('86 and '87) and at least one example of it made it in 4 succesive 500s

In truth it's because I got the list from Wikipedia and it only mentioned the 85C. The last thing I want to do is cast aspersions on the car that Roger Penske pulled from a hotel lobby and won the Indy 500.

[PayasYouRace]

I'm surprised at the number of posters pointing to qualifying pace to diminish the RB18's performance. The aim is to win races. Race pace is what scores the wins and the big points.

 

 

If you looked at pole positions alone you might come to the conclusion that the 2002 Williams-BMW was a match for the Ferrari.

 

Exactly!

[LiJu914]

In terms of pure speed advantage: FW14B all the way.

Best engine, best conventional aero (bar Benetton maybe), and also the only team with active suspension (neglecting Ferrari´s attempts late in the year) and traction control.

 

It´s a small miracle, that Senna outqualified both Williams drivers once that season, given that at the other 15 GP-weekends the best Williams was usually a full second or even two seconds ahead of the next best driver of another team in qualifying (which was usually Senna, sometimes Schumacher).

 

Edit: In case people argue "it´s races that matter": The FW14B had no weaknesses in race trim.

Edited by LiJu914, 24 October 2022 - 19:01.

[Claymore25]

The RB7,

[PlatenGlass]

I'm surprised at the number of posters pointing to qualifying pace to diminish the RB18's performance. The aim is to win races. Race pace is what scores the wins and the big points.

True but their race pace still hasn't been as dominant as other cars. Ferrari have still sometimes been quicker. But a combination of Verstappen's relentlessness and Ferrari messing up have made the gap bigger than it should have been.

[Sterzo]

I think Newey himself pointed out in his book that Patrick Head was responsible for the mechanical design at Williams, while Newey focused on aerodynamics.

[Astandahl]

No. The 92 Williams, 93 Williams and 98 Mclaren were better. Maybe even the RB7.

 

The RB 18 is very similar to the RB9. Already strong at the start of the season and then absolutely dominant after a change in the regulations.

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2022 - 20:57.

[Anuity]

Could be. The fact that Ferrari is taking a lot of poles is distorting the picture, but since very early on it was clear Red Bull was going to win it.

The context is also very different, with different variables and more factors.

 

 

imo, his best car must have been McLaren in 2005. Which in a way is strikingly similar to this years Red Bull. Unbeatable if everything goes right.

 

but then again you have Williams in 1996 without any competition, etc.

[Ferrim]

Was there ever a championship won in a similarly dominant fashion by a car that didn't even have the most pole positions that year?

Benetton B195 could be the closest. But it stopped short of being dominant. I can see some similarities though, like Ferrari/Williams dropping the ball.

Could be. The fact that Ferrari is taking a lot of poles is distorting the picture, but since very early on it was clear Red Bull was going to win it.

Very early on, people were opening threads to debate whether this season was already over, but you might be surprised.

Edited by Ferrim, 24 October 2022 - 21:22.

[Anuity]

Very early on, people were opening threads to debate whether this season was already over, but you might be surprised.

i remember that. However, a lot of people on different forums are ready to enter in a panic mode or flow with a winning bandwagon. There were many posts here saying that the season is over and Ferrari will walk it over.

looking more realistically and also restrospectivelly it was very obvious after race 3-5 that Red Bull was the car to win races. 

[man]

I get the impression the FW14B and FW15 were rarely pushed to the limit by the drivers. The couple of occasions I do recall are qualifying and the early laps for the 1992 British GP. That car during that weekend in the hands of Mansell was from another universe.

[Henri Greuter]

I make a difference between performance and results.

Performance about how fast the car was in itself and measured against opponents

Results the statistics listed in the record books

 

Funny enough, while many remember the 1992 and 1993 Williamses as being utterly dominant in performances, statistically in the results books, the 1996 FW18 gained better final results, averages and scores and is the most successfull Williams of them all in both qualifying and races.

 

As for how to rate the RB18  (18 seems to be a lucky number for Newey designs....), I don't think the car is all out superior, let alone dominant. Outright one lap speeds it is too often beaten by the Ferrari to say it is the fastest car in outright speed. However, in Race day trim it is much closer to the Ferrari if not actually better.

I remain a bit careful in declaring the car to be always better than the Ferrari because I am not sure yet in which manner the race results are affected by a combination of the conclusions about how really good Max is compared to Sergio and how much the car suits Max way more than it suits Sergio, thereby his results being compromized.

I am however convinced of the fact that the race result scores of the RB18 as a whole benefit massively from the fact that certainly in the early past of the season Max has won races that should have been won by Ferrari but came to him because of whatever mishap that befell Ferrari or whatever failure they made, be it the team or a driver.

The Ferrari-Factor alone however makes it certain for me that the RB18 looks better then that it really is.

The reality being that it is, nonetheless a damned good car and in the hands of Verstappen and the team around and behind him a damned effective tool, occasionally indeed superior.

One of the crown jewels of Adrian Newey.

[Albaforever]

The FW14B with Mansell and the Renualt engine it was a rocket. 

Edited by Albaforever, 25 October 2022 - 08:46.

[man]

Regarding the RB18, my feeling is that it is on par with Ferrari in qualifying trim where Charles can often make the difference. In race trim, Ferrari is hard on its tyres and awful with its strategy and therefore Red Bull is in a league of its own.