116 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

Didn't see a poll for this incident like we usually see, so I thought I'd start one to see what y'all think. Discuss ...

 

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Edited by AustinF1, 25 October 2022 - 16:54.

[Makingtime]

 

Didn't see a poll for this incident like we usually see, so I thought I'd start one to see what y'all think. Discuss ...

 

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Video showing that Stroll looked to his left mirror as Alonso was approaching, just before he moved left.

 

See my thoughts in the other thread...

[Widefoot2]

It's with some trepidation that I call it a racing incident, although I would apportion most of the fault to Stroll (~80%). I do think Alonso was cutting the margins a bit close with his move, and he knew who was ahead of him, so a little extra room would have been wise.  I think it's a shame that he lost his position after that great recovery drive, but it's very understandable to me that Haas would have been upset after reporting twice about the loose mirror and nothing being done about it.

[MikeTekRacing]

Voted "other" - more blame on Stroll than racing incident - but not such a d@ckhead move.
The more I watched replays, the more I think they just moved both of them very late, and Stroll was not reacting to Alonso. Alonso was entitled to move that late, Stroll was not - hence I think he should have got a penalty.

[GunnarN7]

Judging from the speed difference it was going to be an easy overtake so it doesn't really makes sense for Alonso to make it so close, but if he wants to for whatever reason (i.e. he didn't want to take any chances) then that's his prerogative. It's not dangerous as long as the driver ahead is watching his mirrors and commits to covering the inside in time. Stroll didn't do this, you don't move that late when you have a car so close behind you and the punishment should've been harsher imo.

[Makingtime]

The sync video  is much clearer and at 1-2 second mark,  you can see the Stroll's head turn to the left, looking into his mirror, while turning  with a classic jerk of the steering to the left, then straightening  the wheel at 3 -4 secs as contact starts to occur, at the 4 sec mark,  it is sending Alonso into the air. 

 

All very fast, but as Sam Collins said, Stroll saw him coming, already knew he was most likely going to do a draft DRS pass down the back straight and should have expected the probable move, as they started down the back straight, but Stroll tried to move over way too late. 

Edited by Makingtime, 25 October 2022 - 00:16.

[Makingtime]

May be Stroll violated the old rule of never look where you do not intend to go, as your eyes will take you where you are looking, for example, the old timers would tell the rookies, look at the racing line, and not at the outside wall at Indy, otherwise it will be too late to do anything but brush and/or crash into the wall...  

[Primo]

Tricky one. In short: It was a racing incident that happened because Stroll is an entitled SOB. There was mitigating circumstances, but they do not apply for Stroll since he has a history of similar acts of assholery. 

[crespo]

Despite Alonso saying race incident for...... reasons......

 

it was clearly, patently, expressly, unmistakably, unequivocally on Lance. Just a straight-up low racing IQ defense.

[HP]

100% Stroll.

 

He saw Alonso coming with speed and still choose to jink around. Probably a reflex reaction, but nevertheless not one expected from a professional racing driver doing these high speeds. Such reflexes can and should be ironed out IMO.

 

Lance's defense that he left room enough is IMO unacceptable. Technically he did, but at those speeds that is still just asking for an accident. Also it doesn't help his reputation of being a good racer.

 

Lance's mind should not be to avoid the unavoidable in this situation, but how to re-pass Alonso later on. Defensive moves are sometimes OK, but in this situation it's just not on.

 

Maybe Lance want to watch some old F1 footage to understand that this could have been easily a fatal accident. Yes, F1 is more safe these days. The basic physics of racing however haven't changed due to safety advancements. Actually safety advancements on cars have sometimes led to heavier and thus less agile cars.

 

I'd given Lance a one race ban so he gets the message more clearly.

[smitten]

I said in the other thread - so many times Stroll seems to be involved in incidents when being overtaken, and making moves which just make me think "why was he moving like that?".  See Australia this year for more evidence.

[Dolph]

It was a move that never should have been made. The possibility that Stroll would have made Alonso lift was so low and only possible when Alonso was very close behind. Meaning, that there is a very good chance of a collision already programmed into that move.

[Dolph]

Despite Alonso saying race incident for...... reasons......

 

 

It was very funny, how Alonso didn't do his usual rant on the radio. I listened in on his team radio just to see if he would say anything or not

[RedRabbit]

It was very funny, how Alonso didn't do his usual rant on the radio. I listened in on his team radio just to see if he would say anything or not

He was also really unhappy after the incident with Hamilton being broadcast, maybe he is just tired of being made to sound like a villain on radio.

[Dolph]

What did he say about Hamilton?

[ANF]

The sync video  is much clearer and at 1-2 second mark,  you can see the Stroll's head turn to the left, looking into his mirror, while turning  with a classic jerk of the steering to the left, then straightening  the wheel at 3 -4 secs as contact starts to occur, at the 4 sec mark,  it is sending Alonso into the air. 
 
All very fast, but as Sam Collins said, Stroll saw him coming, already knew he was most likely going to do a draft DRS pass down the back straight and should have expected the probable move, as they started down the back straight, but Stroll tried to move over way too late.

Except it was a SC restart and DRS hadn't been enabled yet.

[BRG]

It looks to me that Alonso was always going to hit Stroll as he had left it too late to make a clean pass.  But Stroll did move over a little bit.  So racing incident, and neither comes out with much credit.

Edited by BRG, 25 October 2022 - 08:04.

[noikeee]

I think 94% vote speaks for itself.

Alonso did what every racing driver does when overtaking midway through a straight, which is take the slipstream until the last possible moment.

This is not unsafe, unless the idiot ahead decides to cover the inside at the last possible moment as a reactive move to the overtake.

This is yet another incident in the long list of stupid **** from the driver with the worst situational awareness (or worst decision making in wheel-to-wheel scenarios) currently in Formula 1. Stroll isn't that bad in terms of speed nowadays, but he certainly is clumsy.

[InSearchOfThe]

Stroll definitely moved, but I thought Alonso cut the margin too closely.
75% Stroll 25% Fred. Dumb moves by 2 'professionals'.

[Alex79]

it's.... what I do in Gt7 sometimes when we have a super formula race (nose cam has no rear view mirror so I have to use the radar 🤣 ) but the incident is a lot more dangerous affair as Stroll is supposed to be a pro driver whereas I am an amateur. Alonso calling it a race incident is understandable as Lawrence still needs to pay his salary next year

[Sash1]

IMHO Stroll should be thrown out for 1 to 3 races. He was lucky that the results of that move was not worse. It was so incredibly unproffesional.

[RA2]

IMHO Stroll should be thrown out for 1 to 3 races. He was lucky that the results of that move was not worse. It was so incredibly unproffesional.

 

 

Specially after he does not acknowledge responsibility after FIA has concluded its findings. There is every possibility that he will make the same move once again as the penalty has been insignificant. 

 

Best if FIA came down heavily on these matters, 1 race ban and another 2 race suspended ban for the next 12 months.

[Makingtime]

Except it was a SC restart and DRS hadn't been enabled yet.

Good point. Did Stroll lift for whatever reason when he saw Alonso in his slipstream coming fast?

 

I cannot remember who was involved in Austin,, but on two occasions as two cars started down the front straight from the last corner, the car in front appeared to not accelerate as fast as the driver behind would have expected, forcing the driver behind to back off, even considering the"Concertina" effect, of  increasing the concertina effect of the increase in gap than otherwise,  , something of a brake check except not into the corner, but upon exit.  Would need to see the race data to be certain

Edited by Makingtime, 25 October 2022 - 10:04.

[Jon83]

100% Stroll and he should be getting a suspension for it.

[Primo]

Specially after he does not acknowledge responsibility after FIA has concluded its findings. There is every possibility that he will make the same move once again as the penalty has been insignificant. 

 

Best if FIA came down heavily on these matters, 1 race ban and another 2 race suspended ban for the next 12 months.

That is what made me angry. He claim that he left Alonso plenty of space... space is useless without time!

[Sterzo]

I voted for Stroll, though considered voting "other" since everybody is partly to blame. Once upon a time, moving to block was seen as lethal, unfair, and ruinous of good racing. Now every driver does it and is lauded as excellent defending. (And then people complain there's not enough overtaking. Doh!).

 

In this case he supplemented the standard "dirty driving" (to use an archaic term from when it was frowned upon) with a major misjudgement.

[ANF]

Didn't see a poll for this incident like we usually see, so I thought I'd start one to see what y'all think. Discuss ...
 
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Video showing that Stroll looked to his left mirror as Alonso was approaching, just before he moved left.
[video removed]

I made this GIF and added two short pauses: one when Stroll begins to check his left mirror and one at the last frame before he starts moving left. Note that he had already checked his right mirror before he checked the left mirror.

 

The GIF if you want to open it in a new tab to zoom in: https://i.ibb.co/qYn...trollalonso.gif

(The GIF speed is slightly higher than normal speed: 0.03s per frame instead of 0.033s.)

Edited by ANF, 25 October 2022 - 12:46.

[ensign14]

Swerving in front of another driver who has a move on you is not "racing".  It is cheating, it is crashing, it is anti-racing.  I could keep ahead of Hamilton (briefly) by simply weaving all over the track.

[ANF]

I made this GIF and added two short pauses: one when Stroll begins to check his left mirror and one at the last frame before he starts moving left. Note that he had already checked his right mirror before he checked the left mirror.


 
The GIF if you want to open it in a new tab to zoom in: https://i.ibb.co/qYn...trollalonso.gif

(The GIF speed is slightly higher than normal speed: 0.03s per frame instead of 0.033s.)

The way I see it:

Did Stroll see Alonso behind? Yes (he never said he didn't).

Did he see that Aloso was moving left, out of his slipstream? Maybe, maybe not.

Should he have realised that Alonso was very close behind him, and that he had gained so much on him down the straight that he was very likely to move either left or right to make a pass, and that it therefore was too late to make a defensive change of direction? Yes.

[uzsjgb]

Alonso calling it a race incident is understandable as Lawrence still needs to pay his salary next year

 

If Alonso is known for one thing, then it is not talking bad about his employer.

[RedRabbit]

What did he say about Hamilton?

Sorry, should have mentioned the incident in Spa, with Alonso's radio being broadcast, and the Sky commentary team jumping all over it like flies to a turd.

[RedRabbit]

It looks to me that Alonso was always going to hit Stroll as he had left it too late to make a clean pass. But Stroll did move over a little bit. So racing incident, and neither comes out with much credit.

Alonso always pulls out the slip stream late, but there are videos showing that Stroll moved to the left by more than a car width.

[Brackets]

He's clumsy all right, but if that is reactive, then he can predict the future.

 

(Yes, he checks his mirror. He checks it - right and left , like a learner - precisely to avoid an accident: he sees ALO has not committed yet, ergo he veers left to break the tow, albeit at the exact moment that ALO does commit)

[ANF]

Good point. Did Stroll lift for whatever reason when he saw Alonso in his slipstream coming fast?
 
I cannot remember who was involved in Austin,, but on two occasions as two cars started down the front straight from the last corner, the car in front appeared to not accelerate as fast as the driver behind would have expected, forcing the driver behind to back off, even considering the"Concertina" effect, of  increasing the concertina effect of the increase in gap than otherwise,  , something of a brake check except not into the corner, but upon exit.  Would need to see the race data to be certain

Stroll didn't seem to lose time to the cars in front, so I don't think he slowed down. I think it was just Alonso gaining on Stroll with some slipstream, higher straight-line speed and maybe some overtake button (his left thumb pressed the second button from the top).

[ensign14]

He's clumsy all right, but if that is reactive, then he can predict the future.

 

(Yes, he checks his mirror. He checks it - right and left , like a learner - precisely to avoid an accident: he sees ALO has not committed yet, ergo he veers left to break the tow, albeit at the exact moment that ALO does commit)

So...he checks right, sees Alonso is not there, and then decides to break the tow to the left?

[Secretariat]

I will defer to the fact Stroll was deemed primarily at fault. Although I generally like Stroll, I can't muster up the motivation to say many things about him today.

[Makingtime]

He's clumsy all right, but if that is reactive, then he can predict the future.

 

(Yes, he checks his mirror. He checks it - right and left , like a learner - precisely to avoid an accident: he sees ALO has not committed yet, ergo he veers left to break the tow, albeit at the exact moment that ALO does commit)

  Sure, if he was Hamilton and much further down the track from Max, which did happen in Austin towards the end, than Stroll who was a few feet from Alonso. 

 

And later, when Hamilton DID NOT do the same move when Max was far closer to a pass 

[Primo]

He's clumsy all right, but if that is reactive, then he can predict the future.

 

(Yes, he checks his mirror. He checks it - right and left , like a learner - precisely to avoid an accident: he sees ALO has not committed yet, ergo he veers left to break the tow, albeit at the exact moment that ALO does commit)

Stroll himself said that he moved late. Is that not basically admitting it was reactive?

[Rinehart]

I think in most other series if you jink at the last moment to the side in REACTION to a following car pulling out from the slipstream to overtake you, you are at fault. And its looked at fairly dimly, as its bloody dangerous. 

 

But F1, being the "Argos" of motorsport, as usual thinks there is a different way of looking at it and believes the onus is on the following car to predict and avoid dangerous, anti-racing movements.

 

Well, ok then. 

[CaptHaddock91]

I voted Stroll but I think this is basically a racing incident, a bit like Bottas - Russell last year. At very high speed this kind of things can happen and I don't think Stroll did it on purpose, he just reacted too late to a late move by Alonso. 

[Beri]

Even Alonso has told it was a racing incident. I cant see how this is even a discussion.

[alframsey]

I voted Stroll as the move was late and quite dramatic but, unlike others, I don't think Alonso was blameless. 

[Brackets]

So...he checks right, sees Alonso is not there, and then decides to break the tow to the left?

 

"he checks right, sees Alonso is not there, next he checks left, sees Alonso is not there either, and then decides to break the tow to the left", is what happened. You'll have to ask him why he veered left rather than right, with both options still being open (*), but if I were to take a guess, it is because not even Stroll would open up the inside line, and also because he would have to check his right again if he were to go there.

 

(*) Excluding the fact ALO was already way too close to even consider breaking the tow, or basically doing anything else other than squeezing his buttocks while hoping ALO isn't actually way too close already.

 

Stroll himself said that he moved late. Is that not basically admitting it was reactive?

"He's clumsy all right". He let ALO get too close prior to attempting to break the tow.

 

But it's ok. I'll happily sign off on STR being superhuman (reacts within a 10th of a sec) and evil (surely knew he'd send ALO flying). I mean that's what you're all saying right?

[ThrottleBlib]

Even Alonso has told it was a racing incident. I cant see how this is even a discussion.

Haven't read his statement yet, but on the onboard he said "late move". 

He was more shocked than angry though, also was concerned about Stroll's health. 

As some others said, racing incident.

[cpbell]

Need you ask?

[Beri]

Haven't read his statement yet, but on the onboard he said "late move". 

He was more shocked than angry though, also was concerned about Stroll's health. 

As some others said, racing incident.

 

On the Dutch part of Motorsport.com:

 

Alonso: Crash met Stroll in F1 Amerika was een race-incident (motorsport.com)

[cpbell]

Even Alonso has told it was a racing incident. I cant see how this is even a discussion.

Surely you can understand WHY he felt the need to say that?

[ensign14]

Even Alonso has told it was a racing incident. I cant see how this is even a discussion.

Have you ever told your boss that his son sucks donkeyballs?  Try it and let's see how you get on.

[Beri]

Surely you can understand WHY he felt the need to say that?

 

Like Alonso would keep his opinion under wraps if his life had just been on the line. If you seriously think that way, you sure as hell dont know the guy.

 

 

Have you ever told your boss that his son sucks donkeyballs?  Try it and let's see how you get on.

 

My boss and I are in a position where one could tell the other he sucks donkeyballs, even without getting our progeny involved. So I cant relate 

[IrvTheSwerve]

Stroll’s literally looking in his mirrors as he turns the wheel to defend.

 

Ergh, I hate these reactive defences.