32 replies to this topic

[addled]

Hi,

 

I'm looking for information (again) about something esoteric, as I've almost completed a detailed 1/12 scale model of the 72D Fittipaldi drove at Monza in '72.  Can anyone comment on how the 'anvil' air box was secured in front - next to the roll-over bar??

 

 

There are quite a few pictures of the back of the air box showing securing clips and springs.  Here is a pic of a restored car. https://imgbox.com/8wQh87rP.  And this is the only clear (?) pic I found of the front of an air box, with some sort of clip in the centre of the lower portion.  https://imgbox.com/3gRAqr06.  (Judging from the radiator pod, the car, I think is a 'D' and as there are no winning decals on the wing, I presume it was early in the season - also unusual front wings).

 

I'd be grateful for any help.

 

Mark

[Bloggsworth]

Perhaps the recent "All the 72s" page on historic Loti can help (Assuming there still is one).

 

Perhaps not, the website does nothing, and the motorsportmagazine site requires registration to view the gallary.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 27 October 2022 - 14:02.

[68targa]

Hi,

 

I'm looking for information (again) about something esoteric, as I've almost completed a detailed 1/12 scale model of the 72D Fittipaldi drove at Monza in '72.  Can anyone comment on how the 'anvil' air box was secured in front - next to the roll-over bar??

 

I'd be grateful for any help.

 

Mark

Have you contacted Classic Team Lotus, probably worth a try 

[Myhinpaa]

Anyway..., back to the issue on how the front of the airbox is secured. There's a bush on the roll hoop crossbar.

Difficult to find photos of the front of a detached airbox, but one would think there is either a bracket moulded into 

the front of the airbox, or (more likely) there is a shape moulded into the airbox that grips around this bush. (?)

 

 

 

 

Difficult to speculate any further, somewhere there must be someone who knows, or can provide a photo of the airbox front.

[addled]

Thanks Myhinpaa and others for your replies and pics.  A clip to a bush on the cross piece of the rollover hoop makes sense.  Two thoughts though.  1) Was the cross piece a later addition - e.g. with the 'E' configuration - or was it always there?  It's difficult to tell from the pics I've collected and cut-away drawings (Matthews and Hatton) don't show one.  The pic with Ronnie Peterson in the car has Goodyear tyres - after Firestone withdrew, so probably this is after '72.  2) I've noticed (I think!) that the gap between the air box and hoop varied a bit over time as did the distance from the top of hoop to the 'inlet'.  At one time is was right up on the hoop and more or less continuous with the cockpit surround.  But at other times - in '72 - it seems to have been further back.  Presumably this reflects changes in the shape from one generation of air box to another, just as the cockpit surround changed shape over time.  I've not tried to contact CTL but it's worth a try, although they're possibly not enthusiastic about having to respond to weird questions!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

 

P.S. apologies for the spam window.  I wasn't aware of this and I hardly ever post photos to these kinds of apps.  I wonder whether you can eliminate the ads if you take out a subscription? It seems you can post them directly to the forum?

Edited by addled, 27 October 2022 - 20:58.

[GLaird]

If you search 'airbox' and 'bush', have you any concept of the ads to be generated? Maybe its just me!

[Ray Bell]

Maybe use Postimage, addled?

[Tim Murray]

Some off-topic posts have been removed.

[Red Socks]

Perhaps the recent "All the 72s" page on historic Loti can help (Assuming there still is one).

 

Perhaps not, the website does nothing, and the motorsportmagazine site requires registration to view the gallary.

Loti ??

 

Surely Lotus /Chapman issued a press statement all those years ago making it quite clear that the only plural of Lotus is/was Lotus

Edited by Red Socks, 28 October 2022 - 08:15.

[addled]

Glaird, you helped me understand how Google's(?) 'mind' works and where it resides - in the sewer!    I'd not heard of Postimage.  Thank you Ray, I've switched.

 

Also, perhaps y'all can help solve another puzzle.  I've posted before on this forum but, so far, it remains a mystery.

 

I've used Myhinpaa's photo of Peterson in cockpit.  There is a cable (Bowden) running from the cockpit - knob is to right of the driver's head - to an 'adjuster' mounted on the gearbox to right of the solenoid.  The cable is blue arrowed in this photo to the 'adjuster' with red arrow. https://postimg.cc/zL1YhpqC     

 

The 'adjuster' is also visible in the pic of Fittipaldi at Monza in '72.  https://postimg.cc/3kvJPYYY

 

Does anyone know it's purpose?  It wasn't on all versions of the 72.

 

Hoping someone knows.

 

Thank you,

 

Mark

Edited by addled, 28 October 2022 - 08:43.

[PayasYouRace]

Loti ??

Surely Lotus /Chapman issued a press statement all those years ago making it quite clear that the only plural of Lotus is/was Lotus

Thank you. You are correct and the plural of Lotus is Lotus, when talking about this particular brand. That statement was indeed issued.

https://www.topgear....ral-lotus-lotus

On topic I’m really curious about how this thing was attached.

[Bloggsworth]

Loti ??

 

Surely Lotus /Chapman issued a press statement all those years ago making it quite clear that the only plural of Lotus is/was Lotus

He too seldom demonstrated a lack of sense of humour when I was in his presence...

[Doug Nye]

All of your questions could, I am sure, be answered by Clive Chapman's specialists at Classic Team Lotus.  They can be very helpful.

 

DCN

[F1aero999]

Hi Addled,

I also have been working on restoring a Lotus 72 (sadly only a Tamiya), and have been looking at the same issue.

From photos on the most excellent Motorsport Images site, there is a small L (L upside down) shaped bracket (with a tiny lip on the front to stop it pulling backwards, so actually more z on its side shape) attached to the front of the lower part of the airbox that slips under a cross bar on the roll hoop

Now the problems(!)

1. The Tamiya roll hoop does not have this cross bar - easy to fix, although you will have to respray the chrome effect (Molotow is your friend here).

2. The lower part Tamiya air box (the bit that sits on the trumpets) does not extend far enough forward, it should almost touch the roll hoop, so needs to be about 2mm longer, if you have already painted and decalled your airbox you have a problem........

3. The real car roll hoop is only as the kit for the first three races of 1972 (Argentina, Kyalami and Race of Champions), after this the hoop was changed to be taller so it just fitted under the actual air inlet, so for Monza you really should change the roll hoop also  .

 

PS don't forget the wing mirrors should be gold.

 

PPS if you do get a response from Clive Chapman/Classic Team Lotus, I would love to hear the result!

 

PPPS, finaly found a clear photo, its 1974 France, but the principal for 1972 is the same.

https://www.motorspo...1974 lotus&p=14

 

F1.

Edited by F1aero999, 28 October 2022 - 19:12.

[addled]

Hi F1aero999,

 

Thank you for your reply.  Despite collecting and studying lots of photos (I"m a retired researcher!) and seeing that the airbox-hoop proportions changed and that the hoop just clears the rollover hoop at Monza in '72, I realised too late, when I'd attached the hoop and test-fitted the airbox, that the rollover hoop in the kit was too low - this after having replicated the hoop in aluminium and stainless tubing! https://i.postimg.cc...ft-close-up.jpg If I'd focused earlier it would have been easy to make it higher.  In fact I think I cut some bits off the ends!  This shows that you shouldn't make assumptions.    Shortening the airbox - which I tried  - made the proportions all wrong, so I'm left with a gap.  The interesting thing is that the cutaway drawings I have of the 'C' and 'D' don't show a cross piece either and it wasn't visible in any period ('72) photos I have, so I thought it was a later addition.  Though it won't be difficult to add it, as you say the airbox sits too far back, although, again, that gap seems to vary from airbox version to version.

 

On the advice of Doug Nye (thank you), I've written to CTL with my two questions and will let you know if I get a reply

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

 

P.S.  You might recognise the 'cones' on the ends of the roll-over hoop as the points of Parker-style ballpoint cartridges.

Edited by addled, 01 November 2022 - 09:12.

[Macca]

I visited CTL this year; I don't know which c/n this is.

 

 

Paul M

[Myhinpaa]

R5, in "E" configuration ('73 - '75 spec. for Fittipaldi at first and then Ickx) https://www.oldracin...com/lotus/72/r5

 

Seems it had a new chassis* after Fittipaldi crashed it during pratice at Zandvoort in July '73. (Due to wheel failure)

 

http://www.the-fastl...set/1973zx1.jpg

 

https://prints.motor...2e-2018397.html

 

*Apparently the original chassis/tub was kept at Lotus and then rebuilt from 2013 to 2019.

 

https://youtu.be/syrMqMWqJFc?t=222

 

https://youtu.be/_l_u_R63OWk

Edited by Myhinpaa, 01 November 2022 - 23:58.

[addled]

Paul M and Myhinpaa, thanks so much for these links.  I know CTL has (at least) two 72s - R5 and R8 perhaps, but I haven't checked - and the detail in your personal photo is great, including the wiring and the arrangement of the emergency cut-off switch on the roll-over hoop.  I see how the airbox was fastened in front.  Simple really!  I'd not seen either of the two YouTube videos and will take some screen shots for my files.   Fittipaldi's car is a mess in front.  Evidently the tubs were remarkably strong given the general 'light' construction of Chapman's designs - saved Hill and Rindt too when those tall wings collapsed on their 49s.

 

Until I re-started modelling - at an advanced age(!) - and became obsessive about details on the specific car I was modelling, I hadn't realised how many differences there were from chassis to chassis and changes from race to race.  In web searches (and also Ian Wagstaff's book - I couldn't buy Mike Oliver's), many of the pictures are of the surviving E's and/or later rebuilds, so nothing that I do can be definitive and there is lots of guessing and inferring from other chassis.  I could only find one not good photo of the fuel pipe arrangement on the floor of a cockpit in '72, from the French GP.  But the main idea is to just to enjoy the building, I suppose. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Mark

[smbrm]

 

 

I've used Myhinpaa's photo of Peterson in cockpit.  There is a cable (Bowden) running from the cockpit - knob is to right of the driver's head - to an 'adjuster' mounted on the gearbox to right of the solenoid.  The cable is blue arrowed in this photo to the 'adjuster' with red arrow. https://postimg.cc/zL1YhpqC     

 

The 'adjuster' is also visible in the pic of Fittipaldi at Monza in '72.  https://postimg.cc/3kvJPYYY

 

Does anyone know it's purpose?  It wasn't on all versions of the 72.

 

Hoping someone knows.

 

Thank you,

 

Mark

I believe this Bowden cable goes from the safety pull just behind and to the right of the drivers head. At the time it was required for safety workers to be able activate the fire suppression system from an external actuator. The red “D” shaped loop could be pulled by hand or a hook on the end of pole could be used to reach into a car engulfed in flames if necessary. This included disconnecting the battery via the simple rotary blade switch mounted at the rear near the battery. Sometimes simple solutions using simple technology were the most expedient. If you guys are modelling DFV’s you might find this of interest: https://sites.google...ies-for-the-dfv

[Myhinpaa]

Re. battery master switch, the earth cable from the battery goes to this rotary blade switch.

 

 

 

The photo below is from R5 before it was finished completely. (Starter cables not connected to solenoid etc.)

 

 

There is also the "owners workshop manual" from Haynes, don't know how detailed it is though.

 

https://haynes.com/e...anual-paperback

 

 

 

[addled]

smbrm and Myhinpaa, thank you.  This is very helpful.  You've solved (for me) a long-standing mystery.   It explains why the knob/pull is in the cockpit right next to the drivers head.  I thought it must be electrical, though couldn't make sense of what it might control. Perhaps something to do with the adjacent solenoid, but what/why?  Isn't this a rather complicated switch for 'on'/'off'? 

 

I think I have these photos, but clearly didn't know what I was looking at!!

 

I actually bought the DFV plumbing and wiring strategies in two vols when I was modelling the 49.  The illustrations are very good and they are certainly useful, in particular regarding the different versions of lubrication pumps and variations of cooling and lube systems. There are still gaps that need to be filled though by good period photos, not always to hand!

 

I have Ian Wagstaff's 72 'owners manual' and, like the one for the 49, it is useful in many ways, although lots of the detail is from restorations which means things have been changed.  He includes versions of some technical drawings from CTL and I find these useful, especially when I'm trying to estimate scale dimensions.  In a few instances I've scaled drawings to make parts e.g. the rear wishbones on the 49.

 

Speaking of batteries, I wonder if anyone has a clear picture of a period Varley, showing the battery label?  Perhaps I'll ask through a specific topic.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

Edited by addled, 04 November 2022 - 18:48.

[Myhinpaa]

Some info + advert, photos here on Varley's website: https://www.varleyre...om/heritage.htm

[addled]

All, this 'conversation' has been very helpful. Many thanks.  Myhinpaa, your posted photos on 11/3 of the cutoff switch show very clearly where and how the earth cable is connected.  And thanks for the link to Varley.  I looked at it a long long time ago. Pity there isn't a photo of a racing car battery ca 1970.   F1areo99, I have to ask what Molotow is!  I think we've settled how the airbox is attached in front and I added a metal 'wire' cross bar to the rollover hoop and bracket to the airbox.  I've had to make many changes as I've gone along - rebuilding the rebuild is the curse of a modeller who isn't as skilled as he could/should be - but the rollover hoop is too well attached to change its height without doing serious damage to the area behind the seat.  So much for getting the details right .  And please let me know when you've completed your 'rebuild'.  Regards, Mark.

Edited by addled, 25 November 2022 - 09:21.

[F1aero999]

Hi Mark.

Molotow is a chrome effect paint, it comes in pens or as a refill, which can be airbrushed or brushed on (if you keep a wet edge and apply it liberally).

It is quite fragile and needs to be sealed with a clear coat such as Revell Aqua clear.

However it is the only thing that really does look like chrome. For me Alclad is too dark and does not really represent real chrome.

 

https://www.amazon.c...766397241&psc=1

 

This is the best period Varley battery pic I have found so far, way before components were marked with promenant corporate logos - just lots of tiny writing!

https://www.motorspo...rands lotus&p=2

 

My 72 rebuild is a testbed for ideas and methods and so will not be fully restored. It was pretty rough as it came (FoS 2022!), although the airbox and cockpit surround have come out pretty well from a swim in 99% IPA and repaint with TS14. I have replaced the ign leads with 0.8mm black wire which makes a huge difference, added the rubber bungs in the cam cover, made a clutch slave cyl, rod ends for the roll bar to actuating link, fuel lines from the pump to a new pressure regulator, new coolant pipes and hoses from the bottom rad outlet to the engine pumps, new throttle lever cross tube etc etc. I have found that 3mm thin wall heat shrink tube is perfect to represent the back rubber hose on the full size.

 

What I am struggling with is a photo to show where the oil coolant hose from the tank under the rear wing attaches to the left side pump module. Can anyone help?

Did you notice the Tamiya RHS water pump volute is backwards?

 

I have been thinking about vacforming a new cockpit surround from PTEG as this would allow for the different cockpit windscreen shapes used through out the season and would replace the truly awful clear screen supplied in the kit which was already cracked.

 

Malc.

Edited by F1aero999, 27 November 2022 - 16:23.

[Cirrus]

The Varley in the picture is a "Green Top". The white cells were encased in a grey glassfibre casing which was filled with a green resin to seal the cells in. A friend of mine might still have one if you wanted any further detail.

[addled]

Cirrus, if your friend has one and can provide a good picture of the label, that would be great.  Thank you.  Mark

[F1aero999]

+1 to what he ^ said!!!

 

Malc.

[Cirrus]

I've asked the question...

[Cirrus]

Unfortunately my friend doesn't still have a Green Top. He's been running cars for 45+ years and has regular clear outs of retired components...

[addled]

Alan, thank you for asking your friend.  A photo would have been a nice to have.  I wonder if anyone still has a 50 year old Varley??

 

Two more 'mysteries'

 

On another tack - if anyone is still reading this thread - I wrote to Clive at CTL who'd kindly sent an invitation to do so via Doug Nye.  As the folks on this forum had answered two questions I had about the 72 - the ground wire cutoff switch and the way the airbox is secured in front - I asked him two more questions.

1) A good cutaway drawing by G.Betti in an Italian publication of a 72C shows a screen in the side pods ahead of each radiator.  https://postimg.cc/3kVMmXgD.  This seems like a sensible arrangement for protecting the radiators from stuff that might fly in or bounce up from the track and I wondered whether it was carried through to the 'D' as the side pods were still removable.  I've seen a picture of a radiator in CTL's workshop with a screen attached directly, presumably a change that could have happened with the 'E,' although I don't know how much protection it would have provided unless there was another screen in the deformable panels.

2) I've not been able to find a photo of how the wing was attached to the oil tank of R5, specifically at Monza, although as the chassis was intact after earlier races the design possibly didn't change over a few races.  Ian Wagstaff has pictures of brackets on later cars, with more cantilevered wings.  I wondered whether the streamlined 'fixing' on the model, which would have been shaped as part of the oil tank's streamlined design, was largely a figment of the imagination of a Tamiya mould-maker.

 

As Clive said he couldn't answer these questions offhand, I wondered whether someone else knew about these things, from experience or photos.

 

I sent Clive a photo of my model and he queried two colour-related things.

a) Blue track rods.  In at least one photo (from Monza???), but probably more than one, it seemed as if they were blue.  I thought 'blued' (heat-treated?).  If so, it's clearly the wrong blue and as I have a clear blue, I will repaint them if that's what they were, but it may be that what I saw - no substances, legal or illegal, involved here - was possibly a reflection of colour from other parts of the car.  Comments/thoughts/clarity please.

b) The black FARB.  I've never seen this acronym and couldn't figure it out, but I'm sure someone can help me!

 

Thank you,

 

Mark

Edited by addled, 02 December 2022 - 09:38.

[DogEarred]

Front anti roll bar

[addled]

T_H_A_N_K_S

[addled]

F1aero999 shared a number of photos including Fittipaldi at Monza in '72 which show that at this race R5 (and most likely other chassis at other races) had blue track rods.  He speculated that they may have been aluminium ones and coloured to identify them as such.  Thank you for confirming and showing that - in this case at least - the colour wasn't a flight of fancy.