35 replies to this topic

[marksixman]

I am really not trying to introduce politics here, honest, but in view of the recent Brazilian election result I was wondering if Luiz Inacio da Silva was related to Ayrton Senna da Silva.

 

Or is 'da Silva' the Brazilian 'Smith' ? !

[Vitesse2]

Or is 'da Silva' the Brazilian 'Smith' ? !

Pretty much!

 

https://surnam.es/brazil

[aportinga]

I am really not trying to introduce politics here, honest, but in view of the recent Brazilian election result I was wondering if Luiz Inacio da Silva was related to Ayrton Senna da Silva.

 

Or is 'da Silva' the Brazilian 'Smith' ? !

 

Quite funny because when I heard this while driving a few days ago (heard the guys name) I immediately thought of Ayton Senna and I think it was Bob Varsha during a broadcast, who stated how prevelent the da Silva name is in Brazil.

[brucemoxon]

Pretty common in Sri Lanka and Goa, too - former Portuguese colonies. 


BRM

[BRG]

Or is 'da Silva' the Brazilian 'Smith' ? !

That's why Ayrton dropped it.  Sheer snobbery. 

 

F1 is elitist, which is why there has never been a driver called Smith allowed in!

[guiporsche]

If there was any 'snobbery', it was most certainly evident in those who kept insisting in naming him not as Senna but as da Silva for...'sheer snobbery'. Mostly because for reasons known and unknown, they quite disliked the 'pretentious' Ayrton Senna and their way of having their petty revenge was to refer to him as 'da Silva'. A very old TNF thread comes to mind, perhaps? 

 

P.S. The question opening this thread is, to be understated, silly, given the amount of information available...everywhere. 

[LittleChris]

That's why Ayrton dropped it.  Sheer snobbery. 

 

F1 is elitist, which is why there has never been a driver called Smith allowed in!

 

Perhaps they could change it to Smythe ?

[marksixman]

 

P.S. The question opening this thread is, to be understated, silly, given the amount of information available...everywhere. 

I am SO sorry to have been SO silly.

 

I will write out "I must do more research before I post anything" one hundred times. Where should I send my lines ? 

[Henk Vasmel]

That's why Ayrton dropped it.  Sheer snobbery. 

 

F1 is elitist, which is why there has never been a driver called Smith allowed in!

Well, Ferrari is the Italian word for Smith.

[BRG]

Well, Ferrari is the Italian word for Smith.

It is in fact fabbro or ferraio, but there have been no F1 drivers called any of those three names.  Nor Forgeron (French for Smith) or Herrero (Spanish) or Ferreiro (Portuguese/Brazilian). or Schmied (German) or Smid (Dutch).or Smed (Swedish).  Not even スミス (Sumisu - Japanese).

 

My point is proven, I feel, there is institutional snobbery in F1 against metal workers!! 

Edited by BRG, 04 November 2022 - 18:04.

[Sterzo]

If there was any 'snobbery', it was most certainly evident in those who kept insisting in naming him not as Senna but as da Silva for...'sheer snobbery'. Mostly because for reasons known and unknown, they quite disliked the 'pretentious' Ayrton Senna and their way of having their petty revenge was to refer to him as 'da Silva'.

A more likely explanation than snobbery is that he raced in the UK as Senna da Silva. Some (including Murray Walker) continued using the name they were used to for a while.

[Tim Murray]

My understanding is that when he first arrived in England he wanted to be known as Ayrton Senna da Silva, but in their race reports the UK mags usually shortened it to Ayrton da Silva. He therefore decided that if he was to be known by only one of his surnames he preferred Senna to da Silva and so became Ayrton Senna.

[LittleChris]

Pretty certain his results in FF1600 & FF2000 were credited to Ayrton Da Silva in Autosport and it was only when he moved up to F3 that he asked to be referred to as Ayrton Senna. Perhaps a UK/ European misunderstanding of how Brazilians / Portuguese emphasise parts of their name but if so, why didn't he ask it be corrected within that earlier period or did he feel it necessary to            un-Smith himself once F1 was on the horizon ?  

 

Edit: just read Tim's comment. Pity he didn't choose Da Silva / Smith though !!  ( Mind you, there was an earlier one - Roy James  )

Edited by LittleChris, 04 November 2022 - 21:52.

[Rob G]

And then there was Hermano da Silva Ramos, who did use both surnames.

[guiporsche]

According to Senna biographer Ernesto Rodrigues (the only to have interviewed his close group of friends throughout the years; the resulting book has never been translated to English and remains IMO the best biography of Senna), it was none other than Chico Serra, right before the beginning of the 1983 F3 season, when he saw West Surrey's F3 car with 'Ayrton da Silva', who suggested Senna to replace 'da Silva' with something else because it was not enough of a 'racing' surname. Questioned by Senna why, Serra's words were: 'you will never be a world champion with a surname like that'.

 

Incidentally, of course, we know that already in 1982, 'Ayrton Senna' was adorning the sides of the Van Diemen, but there's no reason to deny the Serra story, if allowances are made for its chronology. 

 

Silva is indeed the most Portuguese of Portuguese surnames, still the most common, and hence, the most anonymous. Portuguese migration to Brazil was massive, mostly constituted by lowly educated people doing menial jobs and even today, there's a whole repertoire of Brazilian anedoctes about Portuguese people. In modern Portuguese a 'silva' is a specific type of small bush; originally it used to refer to woods, more generally.

 

At the same time, I have never read anywhere nor was there any inkling about Senna being ashamed of his father and his father's family origins. Senna in the end picked his mother's surname (which indeed sounds a million times better), and that was something he was entirely entitled to do: Portuguese-speaking people's names being constituted by a first name, at least one middle name that usually is the mother's surname, and finally the family surname coming from the father. It's not like he changed the spelling of his name, borrowed from an illustrious predecessor from five generations before, or created a fake name, etc.

Edited by guiporsche, 05 November 2022 - 16:23.

[LucaP]

It is in fact fabbro or ferraio, but there have been no F1 drivers called any of those three names. Nor Forgeron (French for Smith) or Herrero (Spanish) or Ferreiro (Portuguese/Brazilian). or Schmied (German) or Smid (Dutch).or Smed (Swedish). Not even スミス (Sumisu - Japanese).

My point is proven, I feel, there is institutional snobbery in F1 against metal workers!!

I can't speak french but what about Fabre (Pascal)?

[BRG]

Good find!  The exception that proves the rule?  And they soon gave him the elbow when they realised what his name meant!

[Henk Vasmel]

It is in fact fabbro or ferraio, but there have been no F1 drivers called any of those three names. Nor Forgeron (French for Smith) or Herrero (Spanish) or Ferreiro (Portuguese/Brazilian). or Schmied (German) or Smid (Dutch).or Smed (Swedish). Not even スミス (Sumisu - Japanese).

My point is proven, I feel, there is institutional snobbery in F1 against metal workers!!

OK, I was a little doubtful about it. So I checked an onlline Italian-Dutch dictionary. And it gave me the translation : ferrari = smid. Maybe it is a dialect, or more likely, the dictionary is not worth the paper it's printed on. Beware online information but we're all increasingly reliant on it.

Second Smith reference. There was (1957-1959) an F2 car named Smith. Entrant and initial driver: Gerald Smith. in ‘58 the driver was Alan Stacey. Results (Stacey only) a 10th, a Retirement and a 13th in Heat. No snobbery needed here. Quite rightfully forgotten about by almost everyone.

Another question. David Hallyday (Son of Johnny) was actually named Smet. Doesn't sound French to me, so maybe from Belgian/Dutch origin?

Last question (for now) Is the Japanese word "Sumisu" originally Japanese, or is it one of those European words that ended up being used in Japanese (suitably modified) after contact with European sailors. They left a lot of words in other languages for sure.

[Vitesse2]

OK, I was a little doubtful about it. So I checked an onlline Italian-Dutch dictionary. And it gave me the translation : ferrari = smid. Maybe it is a dialect, or more likely, the dictionary is not worth the paper it's printed on. Beware online information but we're all increasingly reliant on it.

What Does Ferrari Mean?

 

Ferrari comes from ferraro, meaning “blacksmith,” putting it on par with the English & American surname “Smith.” And much like “Smith,” the Ferrari name is quite common — it’s the third most common surname in Italy.

Similar root to 'ferrous' and 'ferric' in English. From Latin ferrum - iron (chemical symbol Fe). Although 'iron' is probably orginally from Celtic, possibly via Old German and/or Dutch.

 

English has always been much better at borrowing and adapting words from the Romance languages than other Germanic tongues.

[nexfast]

Guiporsche wrote:

 

"Silva is indeed the most Portuguese of Portuguese surnames, still the most common, and hence, the most anonymous. Portuguese migration to Brazil was massive, mostly constituted by lowly educated people doing menial jobs and even today, there's a whole repertoire of Brazilian anedoctes about Portuguese people. In modern Portuguese a 'silva' is a specific type of small bush; originally it used to refer to woods, more generally."

 

Well, since Portugal was the colonial power in Brazil until the 19th Century , the "Silva" in Ayrton could come from much earlier times. Migration as you suggest was mainly of poor people in the fifties but  from very rich ones in the seventies after the 1974 revolution in Portugal. 

 

Edited by nexfast, 05 November 2022 - 20:15.

[Emery0323]

 

Silva is indeed the most Portuguese of Portuguese surnames, still the most common, and hence, the most anonymous. Portuguese migration to Brazil was massive, mostly constituted by lowly educated people doing menial jobs and even today, there's a whole repertoire of Brazilian anedoctes about Portuguese people. In modern Portuguese a 'silva' is a specific type of small bush; originally it used to refer to woods, more generally.

 

The origin of the name "da Silva" should not be that obscure to English speakers.  Even the English language has a word derived from the same Latin root. 

 

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of the English word "SYLVAN":
1a: living or located in the woods or forest
b: of, relating to, or characteristic of the woods or forest
2a: made, shaped, or formed of woods or trees
b: abounding in woods, groves, or trees : WOODED

 

In the USA,we have the state of Pennsylvania : a latinized name for "Penn's Woods",  from the British founder of the colony, William Penn.

Edited by Emery0323, 05 November 2022 - 22:16.

[Emery0323]

What Does Ferrari Mean?

Similar root to 'ferrous' and 'ferric' in English. From Latin ferrum - iron (chemical symbol Fe). Although 'iron' is probably orginally from Celtic, possibly via Old German and/or Dutch.

 

English has always been much better at borrowing and adapting words from the Romance languages than other Germanic tongues.

Years ago it dawned on me that the chemical symbol for iron ("Fe") and the carmaker Ferrari (occupational surname for ironsmith) had the same Latin root. I always that that was a pretty cool coincidence!

 

English's heavier borrowing from Romance languages vs other Germanic languages is always attributed to the Norman invasion in 1066.   Hence the existence of Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) vernacular vs French-origin administrative synonyms:  "house" vs "residence" or "domicile",  "kingly" vs "royal", "forgive" vs "pardon", etc.

Edited by Emery0323, 23 November 2022 - 20:45.

[Michael Ferner]

Last question (for now) Is the Japanese word "Sumisu" originally Japanese, or is it one of those European words that ended up being used in Japanese (suitably modified) after contact with European sailors. They left a lot of words in other languages for sure.

 

スミス (Sumisu) is not a Japanese word, it's a transliteration of the english word "Smith".

[Vitesse2]

Years ago it dawned on me that the chemical symbol for iron ("Fe") and the carmaker Ferrari (occupational surname for ironsmith) had the same Latin route. I always that that was a pretty cool coincidence!

 

English's heavier borrowing from Romance languages vs other Germanic languages is always attributed to the Norman invasion in 1066.   Hence the existence of Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) vernacular vs French-origin administrative synonyms:  "house" vs "residence" or "domicile",  "kingly" vs "royal", "forgive" vs "pardon", etc.

Ah, but sometimes we already had a better Anglo-Saxon word. Take 'glove', for example, which comes from 'glof', rooted in Proto-Germanic and meaning a covering for the hand - yet in other Germanic and Nordic languages the equivalent word translates as 'hand shoe'. We didn't directly adopt the French 'gant' either, but we did come up with 'gauntlet', which comes from 'gantelet' - and which actually means a small glove in French, essentially the opposite of its meaning in English. Although 'running the gauntlet' came from an entirely different root ...

[guiporsche]

Well, since Portugal was the colonial power in Brazil until the 19th Century , the "Silva" in Ayrton could come from much earlier times. Migration as you suggest was mainly of poor people in the fifties but from very rich ones in the seventies after the 1974 revolution in Portugal.

Obviously yes….but I was not writing a treatise on migration. Anyways, migratory flows from Portugal were stronger around 1890-1920s, then 50’s-60s, always around times of crises and depending on the strictness of Brazilian legislation. 1974 was a micro exile of wealthy political refugees. Ever since the direction of the flow has reversed. Over and out.

[BRG]

スミス (Sumisu) is not a Japanese word, it's a transliteration of the english word "Smith".

Yes, I thought that was probably the case too.  But surely the Japanese had their own word for someone who worked with iron, long before the outside world interposed itself on them?

[Michael Ferner]

One would think so, what with Japanese swords being famous and all that. But スミス is no more the Japanese word for smith than Kajiya is the English word for 鍛冶屋

 

 

https://ja.wikipedia...ia.org/wiki/鍛冶屋

[BRG]

Blame Google Translate!  But the original point survives.  No F1 driver called Kajiya either!

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, google translate tends to take the easy way out. The trick is to start a sentence, e.g. "the smith will forge a sword" and then to trim the surplus words. 

[Arjan de Roos]

During practice of the Dutch GP 1983 it was announced by the speaker that Ayrton had expressed to the press he no longer wished to be called Senna da Silva, just Senna. No reasons given. We just thought it to be more practical, yet set the tone for this comet that shot into the world of F1. 

[ensign14]

What Does Ferrari Mean?

Similar root to 'ferrous' and 'ferric' in English. From Latin ferrum - iron (chemical symbol Fe). Although 'iron' is probably orginally from Celtic, possibly via Old German and/or Dutch.

Enzo Ferrari = Larry Smith.

 

[Doug Nye]

Concerning complex names, or names which just don't 'sound like' a competition driver, when captioning Alpine Rally pix the other day I came across the rather wonderful crew pairings of Marcel Schwob d'Héricourt/Lucienne Alziary de Roquefort (Panhard) and Manuel Giró i Minguella/José Maria Iglesias (Porsche) - whose apparent nominative complexity overshadowed such British duos as Wally H. Waring/Winifred Waring.

The latter pairing would certainly challenge the likes of Jonathan Ross when it comes to pwonunciation...

DCN

[GTMRacer]

Concerning complex names, or names which just don't 'sound like' a competition driver, when captioning Alpine Rally pix the other day I came across the rather wonderful crew pairings of Marcel Schwob d'Héricourt/Lucienne Alziary de Roquefort (Panhard) and Manuel Giró i Minguella/José Maria Iglesias (Porsche) - whose apparent nominative complexity overshadowed such British duos as Wally H. Waring/Winifred Waring.

The latter pairing would certainly challenge the likes of Jonathan Ross when it comes to pwonunciation...

DCN

 

Welease Woderwich! 

 

Apologies, my school boy self could not resist...

[midgrid]

What Does Ferrari Mean?

Similar root to 'ferrous' and 'ferric' in English. From Latin ferrum - iron (chemical symbol Fe). Although 'iron' is probably orginally from Celtic, possibly via Old German and/or Dutch.

 

English has always been much better at borrowing and adapting words from the Romance languages than other Germanic tongues.

 

And also farrier, a blacksmith who specialises in making (prancing?) horseshoes.

[10kDA]

Welease Woderwich! 

 

Apologies, my school boy self could not resist...

 

https://youtu.be/rFPRJTvcx_c

[10kDA]

Enzo Ferrari = Larry Smith.

 

Come to think of it, I have never seen those two in the same place at the same time. Hmmmm...