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Moto '23 - All things MotoGP, WSBK, EWC, Moto2, Moto3, SSP, AMA, BSB, Sidecar, Speedway, SX, MXGP, WR2C, Enduro


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#5401 Ben24

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 03:24

Masia is probably grateful he and the team used those tactics last week, he was nowhere this race

Masia has had a few off races this season but this was the worst one. Shame, cause it now appears as though those disgraceful antics last week were the deciding factor in the championship. 

 

Going into the last 2 weeks I thought either of the top 2 riders would've been a deserving champion. Sasaki was clearly the most consistently quick rider, in the fight for victory pretty much every single weekend, but obviously let a lot of results slip away. I actually didn't hold the fact he hadn't won a race too much against him - it's often a bit of a crapshoot on the last lap in Moto3 and a lot of those second places could've easily turned into 4th or 5th places if he had been overly aggressive on the last lap. For me, the bigger problem with Sasaki was the several horrendous blunders he made that resulted in no points when he could/should have won, especially early on in the season. Masia had had a few more weekends off the pace but was still fairly consistently up there and did a better job of taking his chances throughout the season.

 

After these last 2 weekends, though, I now think that Sasaki was the better rider over the year and the more deserving winner. Turns out now that even just a single long lap penalty for Masia in Qatar (which is less of a penalty than he actually deserved) would've resulted in Sasaki winning the title.



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#5402 Ben24

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 04:42

Do you realise mistakes or badly made moves happen in racing?
 

Those are nothing more than clumsy overtaking moves.

Badly made and over optimistic? Yes

A bit stupid even? Yes

Ran wide on purse? No

Illegal and against the rules? No
 

You know, those moves meant a big a risk of collision, and no one wants to risk a collision or a crash on purpose, I repeat again? No one.
 

 

 

Well that's because Sasaki was his big rival and nobody else?
 

People on the internet and social media often don't know much about the subject and don't know what they're talking about, but I'm surprised here in this forum with mostly very knowledgeable people, don't understand that this is hard racing and this is a tense and ferocious battle for the championship.

Masia was clumsy sure, but showed big balls and a big will to go for it. Sasaki not so much. And we can see who got it in the end.

It is not against the rules to misjudge a braking point or to make a mistake, stuff happens.

Wow. Incredible the way you were defending Masia's moves in that race. It was blindingly obvious that his moves were done on purpose, but even if they weren't they still clearly deserve a penalty. Riders make "clumsy" overtaking moves all the time and always get penalised for it. Just because you didn't purposefully to run someone off the track doesn't mean you get away with the move without a penalty. If anyone else made 2 moves like that I have no doubt they'd receive at least 1 long lap penalty for it, in some cases (like if it were Alcoba) they'd get 1 long lap for the first move and 2 long laps for the second. Race direction dropped the ball by not wanting to make a decision that would be decisive in the championship fight. In the end it was their lack of rule enforcement that ending up deciding the title though.



#5403 Nova

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 05:18

It's so freaking hard to pick out who actually rode well this year, since the Ducati was so damn dominant. I can't even think of a top ten list. I DO think Marc and Fabio are the best riders, but neither had a great season. But honestly, it's not like any Ducati rider would have had a good season on the Yamaha or Honda either.

But hey, at least we got a decent championship battle, which is more than most other series I follow managed to provide.

Now we can look forward to Marc on a Ducati, and get a proper benchmark for the 71 other Ducati riders.

 

This !



#5404 DS27

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 06:48

After wanting Martin to win for most of the 2nd half of the season, I'm now glad he didn't. He is, unsurprisingly, blaming everyone but himself as usual.

He didn't make a mistake against Bagnaia, it was the slipatreams fault, Vinales shouldn't have dared race him, Marquez released the brakes on him (though still made the apex...), and so on.

#5405 Disgrace

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 07:03

Yeah, although he made a lot of progress this year. He wouldn't have won races like Thailand in the past. There is more to his game now than qualifying on pole and making an early escape. And his pace is still devastating.

 

But another step is needed if he wants to be champion. The Valencia sprint was an exception but otherwise Pecco had him covered on weekend management and tyre choice. And clearly mentally too. I would get him a sports psychologist.

 

Bagnaia put together his best run of GP podiums at the end of the year, after losing his ultimate pace advantage. He's the complete package if he can just lower his crash rate, which I reckon he may well need next year to make it three.



#5406 Nova

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 07:19

Monday. Tomorrow testing.

 

About time we got to know what kind of contract Luca got, and who gets the VR46 ride.



#5407 thegamer23

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 08:26

It's official!

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Edited by thegamer23, 27 November 2023 - 08:55.


#5408 RacingFan10

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 09:48

Wow. Incredible the way you were defending Masia's moves in that race. It was blindingly obvious that his moves were done on purpose, but even if they weren't they still clearly deserve a penalty. Riders make "clumsy" overtaking moves all the time and always get penalised for it. Just because you didn't purposefully to run someone off the track doesn't mean you get away with the move without a penalty. If anyone else made 2 moves like that I have no doubt they'd receive at least 1 long lap penalty for it, in some cases (like if it were Alcoba) they'd get 1 long lap for the first move and 2 long laps for the second. Race direction dropped the ball by not wanting to make a decision that would be decisive in the championship fight. In the end it was their lack of rule enforcement that ending up deciding the title though.

 

Sasaki could have done some sort of payback move, but he didn't, he wasn't smart enough, and his team mate was unable to help him.

It was quite similar the way Max won his first championship vs Lewis, I suppose you'd think the same about that then too.



#5409 Lennat

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 10:03

I started writing something that became a bit of an essay that I won't post, but I managed to make a top ten: 

 

I used a scale from 1 to 7, where 7 is a Marquez 2019 level all time great performance, 6 is a peak Lorenzo on a bike he likes, and 5 is a Dovi level performance or a more uneven Lorenzo or similar.

 

I didn't end up giving anyone a higher score than 4.5. I feel Pecco, Martin and Binder were too uneven to deserve a 5, and while Marquez and Quartararo crushed their team mates they surely did not have their best seasons either. I definitely feel Marquez had higher peaks than any Ducati rider, but all that crashing...

 

Anyhow, I think it's fair to say Pecco, Martin, Binder, Marquez and Quartararo are the top five.I just can't rate being "competitive" on a dominant Ducati (like say Marini, Zarco or Alex Marquez) higher than crushing all other Honda riders like Marquez did.

 

In the second tier at 4 we have Bezzecchi and Aleix Espargaro, which means we have a top seven. 

 

I gave Vinjales 3.5, and then Marini, Zarco and Alex Marquez got 3. Since I considered Alex the weakest of the three, we then have a top ten. So, listed in championship order (but not ranked within the tiers):

 

Tier 1: Pecco, Martin, Binder, Marquez, Quartararo

Tier 4: Bezzecchi, Aleix Espargaro

TIer 3: Vinjlales

Tier 4: Zarco, Marini 

 

I'm not saying my list is perfect, but it was the best I could do.



#5410 Alex79

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 10:35

Sasaki could have done some sort of payback move, but he didn't, he wasn't smart enough, and his team mate was unable to help him.
It was quite similar the way Max won his first championship vs Lewis, I suppose you'd think the same about that then too.

I think he was véry smart not to try payback. Would have been DQd in a heartbeat.

Edited by Alex79, 27 November 2023 - 10:35.


#5411 P0inters

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 10:50

What happened in Moto3 was disgraceful. Masia is no champion in my eyes.

 

Pecco, although I don't particularly like him, deserved that title without a doubt. Martin had the pace but threw it away with stupid mistakes. Nobody to blame but himself. 

Still though, this current era of MotoGP is leaving me a little underwhelmed. As much as I think Pecco deserved it, he for some reason doesn't give me the same feeling as Marc or Fabio where they just feel like a world champion. I do think if they were on a Ducati this year it would be them battling it out for the title with Pecco 3rd. I guess we'll see if one of them can do it next year.

Brad Binder threw away the win today. He's had shocking end to the year with some Marquez-esque moves. I'm still a fan but he needs to get it together next year or Acosta will be team leader at the factory KTM in 2025.



#5412 Nova

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 10:58

And there it is. Digi gets the VR ride.

 

https://www.crash.ne...r46-ducati-seat



#5413 Stephane

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 11:14

Just some musical chairs, with enough chairs.

#5414 Nova

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 11:38

Looking at the full grid and contracts there are only three riders that have a contract beyond 24.

 

Marini and Zarco to 25 and Binder to 26.

 

KTM and Yamaha want another team for 25, Yamaha most likely have VR46 already.

 

The musical chair game next season will be interesting :cool:



#5415 thegamer23

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 11:58

With the sign of Marini to Honda HRC and DiGia with VR46, the 2024 grid is finally complete!  :smoking: 

We can now look forward to tomorrow's test  :clap:

 

Meanwhile, someone is taking control of Gresini...

 

 

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Edited by thegamer23, 27 November 2023 - 12:38.


#5416 Sash1

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 12:01

RNF Aprilia out.



#5417 thegamer23

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 12:12

RNF Aprilia out.

 

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#5418 messy

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 12:25

Delighted for Di Giannantonio, because he's genuinely cracked it hasn't he. Staying on a Ducati next year I reckon he'll carry on this kind of form which is great. Deserves it, even if his "moment" came right in the eleventh hour!

#5419 RacingFan10

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 12:41

What happened in Moto3 was disgraceful. Masia is no champion in my eyes.

 

Pecco, although I don't particularly like him, deserved that title without a doubt. Martin had the pace but threw it away with stupid mistakes. Nobody to blame but himself. 

Still though, this current era of MotoGP is leaving me a little underwhelmed. As much as I think Pecco deserved it, he for some reason doesn't give me the same feeling as Marc or Fabio where they just feel like a world champion. I do think if they were on a Ducati this year it would be them battling it out for the title with Pecco 3rd. I guess we'll see if one of them can do it next year.

Brad Binder threw away the win today. He's had shocking end to the year with some Marquez-esque moves. I'm still a fan but he needs to get it together next year or Acosta will be team leader at the factory KTM in 2025.

 

Pecco is the number 1 factory rider, he has al the data and all the support in the world, and he won it by being more consistent. The vast majority of times Martin looked like the faster rider. Both deserved it at least equally IMO

 

 

It's official!

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Strong candidate for being dead last next season in the championship standings. Lets see


Edited by RacingFan10, 27 November 2023 - 12:43.


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#5420 Nova

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:04

Of the permanent riders this season, Espargo and Mir were the two last riders, by quite a margin.



#5421 Hrco42

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:19

Of the permanent riders this season, Espargo and Mir were the two last riders, by quite a margin.

Dani Pedrosa raced two races and finished ahead of them :rotfl:



#5422 dissident

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:22

Pecco is the number 1 factory rider, he has al the data and all the support in the world, and he won it by being more consistent. The vast majority of times Martin looked like the faster rider. Both deserved it at least equally IMO

 

 

 

Strong candidate for being dead last next season in the championship standings. Lets see

It's a risky move, but understandable: didn't really stand out at Ducati so might as well go for the big bucks with Honda.



#5423 dissident

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:26

Of the permanent riders this season, Espargo and Mir were the two last riders, by quite a margin.

Yeah, and while the Honda is a POS Mir's poor form (crashes included) already started in 2022...



#5424 Hrco42

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:27

It's a risky move, but understandable: didn't really stand out at Ducati so might as well go for the big bucks with Honda.

Not understandable to me. I asked the same question in the Moto 24 thread. Yes, he didn't stand out on a Ducati, but there he just needed to become better on a best bike. Now he needs to become better on a worst bike. Kinda like Riccardo from RB to Renault, but even stranger IMO



#5425 JL14

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:27

And there it is. Digi gets the VR ride.

 

https://www.crash.ne...r46-ducati-seat

 

Still think it should be Digi on the Pramac and let Morbidelli prove himself in the VR46 team where he 'belongs'



#5426 RacingFan10

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 13:56

Of the permanent riders this season, Espargo and Mir were the two last riders, by quite a margin.

 

Both better riders than Marini if you ask me.

Pol missed the first half of the season due to injuries, and after that he stuggled to regain form. Satellite KTM (Gas Gas) is one of the worst teams, yet slightly more competitive than the Hondas.
 

Mir is a world champion and also missed several races due to crashes/injuries. The Honda this year has been atrocious and there are no signs of early recovery, according to Marc.

I have no doubts Marini will be behind Mir next season, he will go from the best bike on the grid to the worst one. He will not have an easy time. His bank account will improve though, that's the good side.


Edited by RacingFan10, 27 November 2023 - 13:59.


#5427 YamahaV10

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 21:14

After wanting Martin to win for most of the 2nd half of the season, I'm now glad he didn't. He is, unsurprisingly, blaming everyone but himself as usual.

He didn't make a mistake against Bagnaia, it was the slipatreams fault, Vinales shouldn't have dared race him, Marquez released the brakes on him (though still made the apex...), and so on.


That was in the moment.

He was asked what cost him the title.

He said the soft tire choice and the crash on his own when he was leading.

Bagnaia was blaming the bike for his earlier issues too

#5428 YamahaV10

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 21:28

Pecco is the number 1 factory rider, he has al the data and all the support in the world, and he won it by being more consistent. The vast majority of times Martin looked like the faster rider. Both deserved it at least equally IMO



Strong candidate for being dead last next season in the championship standings. Lets see


Bagnaia was slightly more consistent. If Martin happened to get the other factory ride instead of Beast , Martin would have ran away with it imo.

Martin over achieved on a satellite bike. Pecco did the bare minimum of what was required on a factory bike. Pecco probably isn't capable of doing what Martin did.

#5429 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 27 November 2023 - 21:33

Bagnaia was slightly more consistent. If Martin happened to get the other factory ride instead of Beast , Martin would have ran away with it imo.

Martin over achieved on a satellite bike. Pecco did the bare minimum of what was required on a factory bike. Pecco probably isn't capable of doing what Martin did.

 

I disagree, the Pramac team is basically the alt Ducati team not a proper satellite team. 

It's the 23 bike, riders and (decent amount) team personel employed directly by Ducati 

 

Not to take away Martins season, he was also closer because of the sprints in the end where he and the team did a better job than Bagnaia