76 replies to this topic

[Stephane]

I know it won't change the championship this time

But can someone explain why Tsunoda was not allowed to unlap himself ? It even allowed Latifi to overtake him AND gain almost a full lap on him.

[SenorSjon]

It was ridiculous. They took what, 3 SC laps to unlap? Get rid of this rule asap.

[Kao18]

Yeah highly controversial, I guess the RD needs to go. And that's with 'any' changed to 'all' as well.

[NewMrMe]

Did anyone else notice that on the caption when it said lapped cars can overtake, when it listed the car numbers it only showed 23 and 6?

 

Sounds like another balls up.

[Claudius]

Merc cheated today.
(Sarcasm)

[Muppetmad]

Yes, sloppy stuff from race control there. Mercifully, Tsunoda got out the way quickly, but it shouldn't have been necessary.

[William Hunt]

Tsunoda not 'allowed to unlap himself???' Do you have a source on this? To me it seems like Tsunoda himself was to blame and he didn't take initiative to unlap himself. This created an imho pretty dangerous situation when Yuki went off the  throttle on the straight to allow everyone to pass him with high speed difference between the cars, that was very dangerous.

[search]

Did anyone else notice that on the caption when it said lapped cars can overtake, when it listed the car numbers it only showed 23 and 6?

 

Sounds like another balls up.

as far as I can see, it was probably correct. By the rules, only cars lapped when crossing the safety car line for the 2nd time are allowed to unlap themselves.

 

Tsunoda was lapped when crossing the line first, but the lap after entered the pits, and thereby probably briefly passed Russell, meaning he wasn't lapped when crossing the line again

Edited by search, 13 November 2022 - 21:15.

[SenorSjon]

Tsunoda not 'allowed to unlap himself???' Do you have a source on this? To me it seems like Tsunoda himself was to blame and he didn't take initiative to unlap himself. This created an imho pretty dangerous situation when Yuki went off the throttle on the straight to allow everyone to pass him with high speed difference between the cars, that was very dangerous.

RC message was specific car 6 and 23.

[Primo]

AD all over again, but less complaints this time since it helped Mercedes ;)

Nah, seriously, not only where they incredibly slow making the decisions but in spite of having that much time they made a Masi mistake. 

[William Hunt]

RC message was specific car 6 and 23.

 

Wow I am shocked to hear that from you (and off course I believe you if you said you've heard that).

That's a huge mistake by Race Control, almost unbelievable. Probably not on purpose, just a big hiccup probably. I can't imagine that Race Control on purpose did not mention Tsunoda's car. it's very very strange.

Edited by William Hunt, 13 November 2022 - 21:21.

[pacificquay]

It’s a blunder, but it has no material outcome on the race outcome 

[ClubmanGT]

Wow I am shocked to hear that from you (and off course I believe you if you said you've heard that).

That's a huge mistake by Race Control, almost unbelievable. Probably not on purpose, just a big hiccup probably. I can't imagine that Race Control on purpose did not mention Tsunoda's car. it's very very strange.

 

Definitely evidence of FIA fixing to deny Tsunoda the win IMO. 

[MJB5990]

Thing is, Tsunoda (22) was between Albon (23) and Latifi (6). The message said cars 6 and 23 so Tsunoda did the right thing but Race Control are a disgrace.

[basimi]

Why can’t cars just go to the right at some point (maybe indicated with lights) and the lapped cars just drop down. You can do that on one straight?

Does not seem dangerous to me. But maybe I missing something.

[RazF1]

I really don't know why handing the SC period is so difficult. And why did they not immediately get the SC out?

 

Charlie Whiting wasn't without fault, but man was he better than what we have now.

[Heyli]

Thing is, Tsunoda (22) was between Albon (23) and Latifi (6). The message said cars 6 and 23 so Tsunoda did the right thing but Race Control are a disgrace.

Tsunoda was ahead of Latifi? Or was he another lap down?

[dweller23]

He was ahead.

[jwill189]

I really don't know why handing the SC period is so difficult. And why did they not immediately get the SC out?

 

Charlie Whiting wasn't without fault, but man was he better than what we have now.

 

How hard can it be to look at the scoring monitor and see who is a lap down and where they are on the track?

[RazF1]

Wow I am shocked to hear that from you (and off course I believe you if you said you've heard that).

That's a huge mistake by Race Control, almost unbelievable. Probably not on purpose, just a big hiccup probably. I can't imagine that Race Control on purpose did not mention Tsunoda's car. it's very very strange.

 

They didn't. Car 22 wasn't mentioned in the message that was shown on the F1 live feed.

[cbo]

as far as I can see, it was probably correct. By the rules, only cars lapped when crossing the safety car line for the 2nd time are allowed to unlap themselves.

Tsunoda was lapped when crossing the line first, but the lap after entered the pits, and thereby probably briefly passed Russell, meaning he wasn't lapped when crossing the line again

IIRC that was when VSC was deployed, not SC?

But the rules do not appear to address a VSC being ended and followed by a SC with regards to the rules about lapping cars overtaking.

So taken word by word, the rules seems to say that Tsunoda was lapped and should be allowed to overtake.

[MJB5990]

Tsunoda was ahead of Latifi? Or was he another lap down?

All three were a lap down on the leader. Albon ahead of Tsunoda, ahead of Latifi.

[917k]

Every track needs a pull off area which would be the designated unlapping zone. Should be no problem to implement in a single lap….unlapping has been balls forever.

[Heyli]

All three were a lap down on the leader. Albon ahead of Tsunoda, ahead of Latifi.

That's actually both hilarious and very very sad.

 

It would have been nice to get some radio's from Tsunoda there... Surely he would have questioned what was happening?

[NewMrMe]

Looking at some timings it seems that Tsunoda pitted at the end of lap 54 under the virtual safety car. On lap 55 the VSC was upgraded to a full safety car.

 

I wonder if there is a bug in the timing software where Tsunoda's pit stop triggered a sequence of events which resulted in the timing system failing to recognise that Tsunoda should have been allowed to unlap when the safety car period ended.

[RazF1]

@ChrisMedlandF1

FIA explains this was because Tsunoda was first in the train, came into the pits early in the SC period - technically unlapping himself as he moved ahead of the SC - and so the automated system (since Abu Dhabi) registered he already had unlapped himself and couldn't again #F1

[SenorSjon]

On live timing, Tsunoda was between the Williams. Very odd to see a place gifted this way and RC not noticing the mistake.

[Stephane]

https://www.fia.com/...rychart_v01.pdf

 

there's a weird glitch, probably due to where sf line is related to pitlane

 

Tsunoda appears twice on lap 54

 

but not on lap 55

 

like he unlapped himself by pitting

[F1Frog]

Definitely something to do with him pitting, it was the same for Will Stevens in Singapore 2015. Not a repeat of Abu Dhabi; there has never been anything like that.

[search]

IIRC that was when VSC was deployed, not SC?

But the rules do not appear to address a VSC being ended and followed by a SC with regards to the rules about lapping cars overtaking.

So taken word by word, the rules seems to say that Tsunoda was lapped and should be allowed to overtake.

no, I checked it on the onboard, him pitting definitely happened under SC.

 

The lap before, it's very close as well, but the SC collects Russell after the start/finish straight, and Tsunoda is quite a bit behind, so I guess it was deployed before he crossed the line for the first time.

[TomNokoe]

Tsunoda was directly behind Russell under the safety car.

He pits, Russell doesn't, and in the process of navigating the pit entry, manages to trigger a timing loop before Russell, thus momentarily unlapping himself before falling behind again observing the pit lane speed limit and changing tyres. This confuses the computer.

[NewMrMe]

I do love the irony of the F1 timing system having a race condition bug.

[Heyli]

 

@ChrisMedlandF1

FIA explains this was because Tsunoda was first in the train, came into the pits early in the SC period - technically unlapping himself as he moved ahead of the SC - and so the automated system (since Abu Dhabi) registered he already had unlapped himself and couldn't again #F1

 

If only there were people there who could correct this...

[search]

This is the rule in question, btw:

 

"55.13 If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message “LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE” has been sent to all Competitors using the official messaging system, any all cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.

 

This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed."

 

From Tsunoda's onboard, it's impossible to read the sign on the first lap, but when he gets there, it says "SC" (the one before still said VSC)

 

 

on the lap after, he then overtakes Russell when entering the pits (although can't be 100% confirmed from that view either):

 

 

but the FIA has all exact timing loops, so I guess going by the rules, the decision not to allow him to unlap himself was correct.

[RazF1]

If only there were people there who could correct this...

 

I know right? All a bit amateurish isn't it?

[Myrvold]

 

@ChrisMedlandF1

FIA explains this was because Tsunoda was first in the train, came into the pits early in the SC period - technically unlapping himself as he moved ahead of the SC - and so the automated system (since Abu Dhabi) registered he already had unlapped himself and couldn't again #F1

 

 

I honestly cannot understand how the FIA needed to move from humans to an "automated system" to "show what lapped cars needs to unlap" when all that's needed is to look at the live timing that ever.single.person in the world are able to use. How hard can it actually be?

[ANF]

This is the rule in question, btw:
 
"55.13 If the clerk of the course considers it safe to do so, and the message “LAPPED CARS MAY NOW OVERTAKE” has been sent to all Competitors using the official messaging system, any all cars that have been lapped by the leader will be required to pass the cars on the lead lap and the safety car.
 
This will only apply to cars that were lapped at the time they crossed the Line at the end of the lap during which they crossed the first Safety Car line for the second time after the safety car was deployed."
 
From Tsunoda's onboard, it's impossible to read the sign on the first lap, but when he gets there, it says "SC" (the one before still said VSC)
 

 
on the lap after, he then overtakes Russell when entering the pits (although can't be 100% confirmed from that view either):
 

 
but the FIA has all exact timing loops, so I guess going by the rules, the decision not to allow him to unlap himself was correct.

Interesting! And the funny thing is that Tsunoda was told to "stay close to the car in front". That's why he speeded up and overtook Russell...

There seemed to be a weird glitch on the F1TV data feed as well. From Russell's onboard, Tsunoda seems to cross the control line one or two seconds before Russell, but for some reason there's a delay of seven or eight seconds before Tsunoda's lap time is updated. (Perhaps the same thing happened for every car that crossed the line in the pit lane, I don't know.)

[ANF]

Um, I just noticed that Sainz overtook Tsunoda on the straight after T3 on the final SC lap. "If he doesn't want to unlap, I'll go in front." He never gave the position back.

And at the restart, Bottas and Leclerc overtook him before the control line.

[MikeTekRacing]

I also saw Sainz overtake Perez going into t1? Or maybe I read that wrong

[mclarensmps]

Race control and Stewarding were really off the ball today, which is a pity because the race itself was very entertaining. Interlagos never fails to put on a good race. 

[Myrvold]

Um, I just noticed that Sainz overtook Tsunoda on the straight after T3 on the final SC lap. "If he doesn't want to unlap, I'll go in front." He never gave the position back.

Correct. That should be a penalty.
 

And at the restart, Bottas and Leclerc overtook him before the control line.

Is it not "the line". Safety Car Line?

[Baddoer]

Sounds like someone made a mess of things.

Edited by Baddoer, 14 November 2022 - 05:58.

[Wuzak]

Correct. That should be a penalty.

 
Did those cars pass Tsunoda, or did Tsunoda let them past?
 
 
 
 

Is it not "the line". Safety Car Lie?

No, it is the start/finish line.

 

That rule was changed years ago.

Edited by Wuzak, 14 November 2022 - 05:23.

[Clrnc]

Um, I just noticed that Sainz overtook Tsunoda on the straight after T3 on the final SC lap. "If he doesn't want to unlap, I'll go in front." He never gave the position back.

And at the restart, Bottas and Leclerc overtook him before the control line.

Shouldn't all get a pen then?

[Winterapfel]

Watching Tsunoda's onboard:
When the unlapping proces begun Tsunoda started to unlap and overtook Sainz. Then he was instructed to hold position and stop unlapping.Latifi overtook Tsunoda when he did do the unlapping. If course Tsunoda was asking what was going on...

Sometime later, Sainz retook his position.
Tsunoda was then instructed to let the others pas him, at the restart, after passing the control line.

My impression: fia forgot to include his car number for the unlapping. AT started the unlapping process and then noticed Tsunoda was not included in the FIAs unlapping message and stopped the process.
When race control noticed their mistake, instead of taking it on the chin, fixing it by having Tsunoda unlap himself and loosing more race laps, they (as we have seen before) invented some undocumented repair on the spot, which put Tsunoda a lap down and behind Latifi.

[search]

Interesting! And the funny thing is that Tsunoda was told to "stay close to the car in front". That's why he speeded up and overtook Russell...

There seemed to be a weird glitch on the F1TV data feed as well. From Russell's onboard, Tsunoda seems to cross the control line one or two seconds before Russell, but for some reason there's a delay of seven or eight seconds before Tsunoda's lap time is updated. (Perhaps the same thing happened for every car that crossed the line in the pit lane, I don't know.)

just noticed that the Safety Car rules say "When entering the pits a driver may pass another car remaining on the track, including the safety car, after he has reached the first safety car line."

 

So it normally shouldn't be possible to unlap yourself before the line*. If Tsunoda did, I guess the correct decision would have been a penalty for him, but allow him to unlap himself (as the initial move wasn't a legal one).

 

*edit: my mistake, "Iine" means "finish line" apparently. I thought it was referring to the SC line as well.

Edited by search, 14 November 2022 - 15:56.

[Wuzak]

When race control noticed their mistake, instead of taking it on the chin, fixing it by having Tsunoda unlap himself and loosing more race laps, they (as we have seen before) invented some undocumented repair on the spot, which put Tsunoda a lap down and behind Latifi.

 

The point is that Tsunoda should not have been unlapping himself, since he was not instructed to do so (whether or not it was a mistake to not give that instruction).

[MaxCrazyEddieCayer]

It was definitely a farce. Laughable, proof that it’s being run by idiots now as it was then. Can’t wait to see 1200 pages of full on conspiracy theories… oh wait.

[Youichi]

Every track needs a pull off area which would be the designated unlapping zone. Should be no problem to implement in a single lap….unlapping has been balls forever.

All circuits have one, it's called the Pit Lane.

Lapped cars should enter the pit lane, and be held at the end until the SC queue has passed. Simple and un-screw-up-able even for the FIA.

[Rediscoveryx]

It was ridiculous. They took what, 3 SC laps to unlap? Get rid of this rule asap.

Yes it needs to go.

Rule-book prioritizations going forward:

1) Figure out how the h*ll we can start racing in the wet again.

2) Drastically reduce DRS-zones.

3) Drop the ”lapped cars may now overtake” drivel and just restart whenever the track is clear.