7 replies to this topic

[mariner]

FS has been a huge and global success over the years and is often the point of entry to "real world" budget, design, build and race for many Motorsports degree and post graduate students. However a couple of recent comments have started me wondering if it needs supplementary activities for a full curriculm.

 

A couple of comments by Racecar Engineering vehicle dynamics writers have questioned how much the students will learn from the low speed and high steering angles for most of a FS race course.

 

FS is now almost unique in not,,as far as I know, having a control tyre. Delft University who often win in Europe, actually make their own tyres , which given Prof. Pacjecka of the tyre model fame is Professor there seems a bit unfair. Even excluding that most race engineers and designers are going to send most of their work life now stuck with control, tyres so FS doesn't really train  them for that.

 

The cars are deliberately designed with a very short wheelbase . As I understand it that was done to stop them be used on full size tracks, .but the general trend over the years is to very long wheelbases for platform control so, again, FS is a "niche " sort of design. 

 

Clearly FS has a big role  to play but John Miles the Lotus F1 driver and dynamics guru once called it " motor racing in car park". He was obviously being sarcastic but I think his point, from decades of racing and road car dynamics experience, was that it has limitations and well as benefits for  real world training.

Edited by mariner, 19 November 2022 - 11:31.

[Nathan]

I always thought the purpose wasn't to accurately reflect race car design but to go through the process.

[mariner]

Yes of course it is the process but what processes are the most important?

 

To take my extreme case , the Deft own make tyres , designing a tyre from the inside out is wonderful engineering and learning exercise but in most of motorsports the race engineers have to learn a control tyre from the outside in without full design  knowledge. Learning to do that may be better.

 

Of course there is one huge learning difference between FS and mainstream motorsports - the students only get one shot at designing, building and racing the FS car. Each new set of students tends to start from scratch so don't get much of a learning curve.

 

BTW One FS lecturer told me that a pivotal  moment in each design  and build cycle is when one of the students shows real aptitude for  welding . As most cars use spaceframes still that skill has to be found early on .

Edited by mariner, 19 November 2022 - 15:55.

[Greg Locock]

To our team's shame a front fork spaceframe I made and welded ended up on a solar car we sold to another team. I had checked it was not too bad by bashing it with a big hammer (standard practice on the farm) but there's no way it should have  been used on the road.

 

I'm not worried about FSAE being unrepresentative, the whole of university is unrepresentative of real life engineering. It is at least 2 orders of magnitude more relevant than building robots out of f-ing Lego (something my 8 year old grandson also enjoys).

[Fat Boy]

Although I didn't realize it at the time, and how could I, walking into the FSAE shop for the first time was a if not the pivotal moment in my life. It's been all downhill from there, lol!

 

You think you're 'racing.' You're not, of course. What you are doing is learning to work together in a group of a bunch of people. You start to learn how to deal with various personalities you'll see through the rest of your career. You'll learn how to divide and conquer on a big project. You learn basic-to-mid level construction and fabrication techniques. You learn how to take stuff apart and put it together. You learn how to compromise. You learn how to fail...wildly, sometimes. You learn to love your work. I mentioned in a different thread that I'd had a small vacation to see friends recently. It was 3 of us from the FSAE team. Two of us are still doing it.

 

When I was going to school, it was about exposure to computers and programming, because it was established that these would be vital skills. Our young people are computer savvy as hell, there's no problem there. I thought it was funny that one of the "stupid kids" (a boy) in my daughters grade did a lot of research and actual coding to defeat the blocker software the school uses so he could play games in class. Get that? The "stupid kid" is writing code (which begs the question...). But, these kids rarely get the chance to work on actual physical stuff. It's all simulated. Having an outlet where you get to create your project from scratch and then race it against a bunch of other dummies is an amazing learning experience.

 

Having said all this, I *do not* think FSAE should be for school credit and I would highly recommend students shy away from the "Motorsports Engineer" degree. FSAE needs to be a passion project which supplements the school work, not the school work itself. I'm sure the Motorsports programs have good material to learn, but it's just an incredibly limiting degree. Once you work in racing for a couple years, you're already a leper to normal industry. If you drop a motorsports specific degree on top of that, then it's such a narrow focus, that you severely limit your career options should you want to leave. The only way I think one should get a "Motorsports" degree is if it's accompanied by a more general purpose (Mech, Aero, Elec, Management, Business, etc) degree as well.

[Fat Boy]

I had checked it was not too bad by bashing it with a big hammer (standard practice on the farm) but there's no way it should have  been used on the road.

He who is without fault, throw the first stone. Go and sin no more. You are absolved, my son.

[Fat Boy]

 

Of course there is one huge learning difference between FS and mainstream motorsports - the students only get one shot at designing, building and racing the FS car. Each new set of students tends to start from scratch so don't get much of a learning curve.

 

 

Many FSAE kids take 5 years to get their degrees. The really good ones flunk out.

[JacnGille]

To our team's shame a front fork spaceframe I made and welded ended up on a solar car we sold to another team. I had checked it was not too bad by bashing it with a big hammer (standard practice on the farm) but there's no way it should have  been used on the road.

 

If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer!