4224 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

Since Max came of age in ~2018 he has destroyed every team mate (mentally and on track) he's had. Red Bull need a driver that can deliver near Max but also doesn't lose his head when getting slapped every week.

Does that person exist?

 

I would be surprised if that person does not, however is not a current driver in F1 (nor current reserve driver).

[NewMrMe]

Isn't that where Red Bull's re-interest in Ricciardo is coming from?

 

He realises now that he isn't going to be a lead driver in a top team elsewhere so might be happier to be Red Bull's number 2. I think the point of putting him in at Alpha Tauri is to check if they are getting a 2018 Red Bull spec Daniel or a 2022 McLaren spec one.

[messy]

I am currently of the opinion that Ocon could be better than Gasly, he did not get outclass by Alonso and he seems to be a hard worker type of driver with plenty of speed, kind of like Sainz, while Gasly seems to be more of the "prince" type.  If RBR would just want an upgrade over Perez a younger maybe a little better, Ocon could be it,  pretty fast and a persistent grinder.   But not sure Max and Ocon would mix well..

Gasly’s come into ‘his’ team in 2023 and started matching him quite quickly, now he’s probably edging it. That tells me that Ocon’s ultimate potential maybe isn’t quite there. Personally I think Sainz would be perfect but I doubt that would happen.

[jonklug]

Isn't that where Red Bull's re-interest in Ricciardo is coming from?

He realises now that he isn't going to be a lead driver in a top team elsewhere so might be happier to be Red Bull's number 2. I think the point of putting him in at Alpha Tauri is to check if they are getting a 2018 Red Bull spec Daniel or a 2022 McLaren spec one.

It's purely sentimental if you ask me. Horner always loved the guy, was hurt when he left.

[rodlamas]

Gasly’s come into ‘his’ team in 2023 and started matching him quite quickly, now he’s probably edging it. That tells me that Ocon’s ultimate potential maybe isn’t quite there. Personally I think Sainz would be perfect but I doubt that would happen.

Alpine's new CEO said that worst mistake the team made was give a 4 year extension to Ocon until the end of 2024. Guess he will be out after next year.

[Flyhigh]

People are sentimental about Dan, I get it, but things happen for a reason, driver´s level just don´t fall out over a season/few seasons usually. Remember Seb 2014, how that was supposed to just be a glitch, at the time thought as a GOAT candidate coming to Ferrari to be Schummy 2, Kimi´s elusive Mclaren level, etc. I think people are disillusioning themselves if they think Mclaren fall stint was a glitch or he would actually perform better by accepting being Max´s poodle, human mentality often doesn´t work like that. The best second driver´s in F1 most often do best by thinking themselves to be a potential rooster in the making...   

If RB want to step up they should get a wanna be rooster, who will bring the heat but not likely beat Max, so nature will do the work, but just push the team up..   

[ANF]

Alpine's new CEO said that worst mistake the team made was give a 4 year extension to Ocon until the end of 2024. Guess he will be out after next year.

When/where did he say that? It would be an extraordinary thing to say and Google won't find it for me.

[efuloni]

Horner pretty much said that Lawson wont drive for Williams next year, but keep beeing reserve instead.

After the news that Vowles was unimpressed by Mick's data, I guess its beetween Sargeant and Drugovich.

[ARTGP]

I really hate that Sargeant was put in the position to embarrass himself in the first place, only to be dropped later. It would have been better for all if he never had the seat in the first place. It's very rough to be dropped after 1 season even if it's your own doing. 

Edited by ARTGP, 24 September 2023 - 14:59.

[SenorSjon]

Horner pretty much said that Lawson wont drive for Williams next year, but keep beeing reserve instead.

After the news that Vowles was unimpressed by Mick's data, I guess its beetween Sargeant and Drugovich.

Horner needs him as reserve. If Perez keeps this up, he will be out next year.

[rmac923]

Horner pretty much said that Lawson wont drive for Williams next year, but keep beeing reserve instead.

After the news that Vowles was unimpressed by Mick's data, I guess its beetween Sargeant and Drugovich.

If this is the case, I would not be surprised is Sargeant is sacked during the off week. I feel like this weekend was the last straw and there is no reason to wait if there won't be a Red Bull driver option. Drugovich would be an improvement as long as he doesn't crash a car.

[RacingSmoke]

I really hate that Sargeant was put in the position to embarrass himself in the first place, only to be dropped later. It would have been better for all if he never had the seat in the first place. It's very rough to be dropped after 1 season even if it's your own doing. 

 

He was just hyped up too much and protected a lot. He's absolutely woeful. I don't get how people rate him, American tax is heavy it seems.

[djparky]

Williams have been more patient with Sargant than other teams probably would be, but for a driver with a decent enough record in the junior formula, it's not translated into F1. Not sure whether he's trying too hard to match Albon or it's a pressure thing. As for replacements, Drugovich or Lawson would probably be the best options.

[PayasYouRace]

Drugovich strikes me as a name I've been seeing far too long without him actually making it to F1, and a third-year F2 champion isn't normally something to shout about. I'd say if you can't win or nearly win F2 in your first year, you're not F1 material.

[CaptHaddock91]

He was just hyped up too much and protected a lot. He's absolutely woeful. I don't get how people rate him, American tax is heavy it seems.

He had a good junior career. He lost the F3 title to Piastri in 2020 because he was punted out by another driver at the last round, he impressed in an inferior team in 2021 and was the best rookie in F2 last year, beating in qualifying the same Lawson who’s getting a lot of praise for his debut. This year he’s having an horrible run, but it was honestly hard to predict he would do so bad.

[potmotr]

Drugovich strikes me as a name I've been seeing far too long without him actually making it to F1, and a third-year F2 champion isn't normally something to shout about. I'd say if you can't win or nearly win F2 in your first year, you're not F1 material.

I get the sense he'll be a Felipe Nasr level talent. Seem like similar guys.

[potmotr]

He had a good junior career. He lost the F3 title to Piastri in 2020 because he was punted out by another driver at the last round, he impressed in an inferior team in 2021 and was the best rookie in F2 last year, beating in qualifying the same Lawson who’s getting a lot of praise for his debut. This year he’s having an horrible run, but it was honestly hard to predict he would do so bad.

Some drivers thrive once they reach F1, otherwise wilt. F2 qualifying can also be a real lottery!

[efuloni]

I get the sense he'll be a Felipe Nasr level talent. Seem like similar guys.

Nasr spent 3 years in top GP2 teams and won his first race and the third year. He was not champion.

Drugovich was fast from the beginning. Won 2 races and 2 poles for a weak team in his first year. Got the championship for the same team in the most dominant fashion.

Drugovich tends to be miles better than Nasr.

He is no Russel/Leclerc, ofc, but I believe him to be a very good driver.

[PayasYouRace]

I think you have to be a Russell/Leclerc to belong in F1 nowadays. The standard is very high nowadays.

[efuloni]

I think you have to be a Russell/Leclerc to belong in F1 nowadays. The standard is very high nowadays.

Zhou, Stroll, Tsunoda, Gasly, Albon, Ocon, Sargeant, Magnussen and Hulkenberg are some of the ones who are definetely one or two steps below Russell and Leclerc and are in F1.

The sport never had (and never will have) 20 champions on the making. Most of the field is formed by average-drivers who deserve to be there for a few years.

Edited by efuloni, 24 September 2023 - 17:04.

[PayasYouRace]

Zhou, Stroll, Tsunoda, Gasly, Albon, Ocon, Sargeant, Magnussen and Hulkenberg are some of the ones who are definetely one or two steps below Russell and Leclerc and are in F1.

The sport never had (and never will have) 20 champions on the making. Most of the field is formed by average-drivers who deserve to be there for a few years.

 

Yeah but you're not going to replace most of these guys by being another of these guys.

 

As for the sport never having 20 champions in the making. That's not my point. The standard is higher than ever, and it's getting to the point that you need to be that good to have a hope of lasting longer than your first season.

[messy]

PAYR is right - these days if you’re not a Leclerc/Russell/Piastri style superstar who blitzes straight through F2, you’re unlikely to get into F1 unless you’re 1. Aligned to a junior programme and get lucky with the timing, or 2. Have loads of backing and get lucky with the timing. If you don’t look absolutely exceptional, you ain’t getting in. There are so many “would have done a decent job” potential F1 drivers who never got anywhere near a race seat. Even Piastri had to sit on the sidelines for a year.

I reckon it’s probably good that the standards are so high, but it’s unfortunate that once a driver is established in F1, mediocrity seems to be much easier to accept with a nice contract extension. Personally I preferred it when there was a higher turnover of drivers in the back half of the grid, it was much more interesting.

[efuloni]

Yeah but you're not going to replace most of these guys by being another of these guys.

I disagree. That is precisely what has been happeningn since ever.
Though I agree that the rate of these changes has diminished, they continue to happen.
There is always the chance that a mid-driver shows himself as better than expected. We have many examples of this and the teams make these subs to cash some more money and bet on a new gun.

[masa90]

Suddenly Bottas-time in Mercedes is starting look quite good compared to another driver dropping of at the top team ;)

 

Interesting to see what will happen. There are some drivers who are having absolutely horrid seasons (above mentioned VB included, also #11, Sargeant and both drivers in Haas) but hard to see them replacing Perez. Surprised if Logan is retained. I can't remember a single shoiwng sofar where I was like "wow!".

Edited by masa90, 24 September 2023 - 17:21.

[messy]

Suddenly Bottas-time in Mercedes is starting look quite good compared to another driver dropping of at the top team ;)
 
Interesting to see what will happen. There are some drivers who are having absolutely horrid seasons (above mentioned VB included, also #11, Sargeant and both drivers in Haas) but hard to see them replacing Perez. Surprised if Logan is retained. I can't remember a single shoiwng sofar where I was like "wow!".

Hulkenberg has done ok given he’s coming back from quite a long time out, but he’s really exposed Magnussen for the mediocre performer he is, plus Bottas, Zhou, Sargeant, Stroll, Perez, all utterly unimpressive and I wouldn’t be totally surprised if they were all still on the 2024 grid. If I was somehow in charge of F1 I’d swap each and every one of them out for six promising guys from F2 or F3. They mightn’t be any better but it would be much more interesting and gives one or two of them the chance to really surprise. That’s what I miss.

[ForzaFormula]

Suddenly Bottas-time in Mercedes is starting look quite good compared to another driver dropping of at the top team ;)

 

Interesting to see what will happen. There are some drivers who are having absolutely horrid seasons (above mentioned VB included, also #11, Sargeant and both drivers in Haas) but hard to see them replacing Perez. Surprised if Logan is retained. I can't remember a single shoiwng sofar where I was like "wow!".

 

If you can't qualify good even in a top car and are a lower midfield driver, you are struggling to climb back up the field especially if like Perez you are driving slow and making mistakes, Bottas is a fine qualifier in a top car, so in a merc or rb with dominance pace he will do the job mostly if there is no competition from outside, while Perez struggles down the field due to poor qualifying performances and mistakes.

However, as bad as Perez is, such as the advantage Red Bull have, they won the WCC, and Perez is still second in the drivers, and that is what really counts, Max dominates, Perez just goes on collecting points and has a few good races in a season enough to help RB secure the WCC, I don't think he will be replaced if this carries on and other teams don't catch up with RB anytime soon.

[andysaint]

I’d like to see Alonso buy himself out of Aston Martin and go to Red Bull and say don’t pay me a salary pay me per point/podium/win and let’s spice up the championship. I wouldn’t put it past the owners of F1 to stump up the buy out money as they’d make it back easily

[ANF]

He had a good junior career. He lost the F3 title to Piastri in 2020 because he was punted out by another driver at the last round, he impressed in an inferior team in 2021 and was the best rookie in F2 last year, beating in qualifying the same Lawson who’s getting a lot of praise for his debut. This year he’s having an horrible run, but it was honestly hard to predict he would do so bad.

Sargeant must have had a weak second half of the season in F2 though, because I went from this opinion at the end of July...
 

I wonder if Sargeant is learning more things in the Williams simulator than Lawson is in the Red Bull simulator. Looks like Sargeant currently has the upper hand in the Williams sponsored/junior Carlin team.

...to this at the end of September (discussing possible Latifi replacements) :
 

I hope it's de Vries in a Mercedes deal to see if he's good enough to replace Hamilton once he retires.
Schumacher would be okay if he won't be staying at Haas.
Sargeant... I'm not sure he's good enough for F1.

[danmills]

Red Bull should be targeting Piastri. The kid is absolute dynamite and I believe would hound Max until his crown is stolen. He's still fresh and mouldable. RB would turn him into an absolute weapon. He's so calm and collected, young enough to accept a number 2 role as he matures but will bite at the first opportunity of glory. If and when Max has had enough Piastri would be an immediate lead.

 

I fear Lando would struggle at RB. Mclaren was a car DR couldn't understand, had to change his entire driving style. He likes the car like Max does. By that logic, Lando may find the same reverse effect having only known Mclaren.

Edited by danmills, 24 September 2023 - 17:55.

[pdac]

I would be surprised if that person does not, however is not a current driver in F1 (nor current reserve driver).

 

Bottas

[Garagista]

Red Bull should be targeting Piastri. The kid is absolute dynamite and I believe would hound Max until his crown is stolen. He's still fresh and mouldable. RB would turn him into an absolute weapon. He's so calm and collected, young enough to accept a number 2 role as he matures but will bite at the first opportunity of glory. If and when Max has had enough Piastri would be an immediate lead.

I fear Lando would struggle at RB. Mclaren was a car DR couldn't understand, had to change his entire driving style. He likes the car like Max does. By that logic, Lando may find the same reverse effect having only known Mclaren.

Ferrari should be doing everything to get him.

Australian which is a country with a big Italian community, driver with Italian roots... I just don't know if he speaks Italian.

Seems a perfect combination!!

[pdac]

Red Bull should be targeting Piastri. The kid is absolute dynamite and I believe would hound Max until his crown is stolen. He's still fresh and mouldable. RB would turn him into an absolute weapon. He's so calm and collected, young enough to accept a number 2 role as he matures but will bite at the first opportunity of glory. If and when Max has had enough Piastri would be an immediate lead.

 

I fear Lando would struggle at RB. Mclaren was a car DR couldn't understand, had to change his entire driving style. He likes the car like Max does. By that logic, Lando may find the same reverse effect having only known Mclaren.

 

That's exactly what the team would not want to do, surely. If you have a top talent, then you don't challenge that talent, you just bring in some extra support. The best thing for Max and the team is if Max is challenged by another team. That will keep him honed. Challenging him from within is counter-productive.

[Anderis]

Zhou, Stroll, Tsunoda, Gasly, Albon, Ocon, Sargeant, Magnussen and Hulkenberg are some of the ones who are definetely one or two steps below Russell and Leclerc and are in F1.

The sport never had (and never will have) 20 champions on the making. Most of the field is formed by average-drivers who deserve to be there for a few years.

Hulkenberg is not one or two steps below Russell and Leclerc if you judge him by his pre-F1 career. He may have underperformed compared to expectations in F1 slightly but there's no comparison to be made with someone like Drugovich.

Most of the field is not formed by average drivers. Most of the field is formed by exceptional drivers, some of whom may look average when compared to a few even more exceptional drivers. F1 has changed a lot in the last 20 years. It's filled with driving talent like never before. Yesterday's outstanding talents are today's journeymen.

I really hate that Sargeant was put in the position to embarrass himself in the first place, only to be dropped later. It would have been better for all if he never had the seat in the first place. It's very rough to be dropped after 1 season even if it's your own doing. 

There's nothing wrong if a driver is getting dropped after one season if he can't show a basic level of competence. He was not some kid taken from a street, he was a driver who had already spent several years driving race cars. If he hasn't managed to get good enough to at least not embarass himself in his first F1 year, that's on him. I don't know why it would have been better for all if he had never got the seat in the first place. At least now he knows his life long dream of being a successful F1 driver hasn't worked out because of his own shortcomings, not because he was unfairly overlooked. I don't see it as a negative.

[JvsKVB77]

Suddenly Bottas-time in Mercedes is starting look quite good compared to another driver dropping of at the top team ;)

 

Interesting to see what will happen. There are some drivers who are having absolutely horrid seasons (above mentioned VB included, also #11, Sargeant and both drivers in Haas) but hard to see them replacing Perez. Surprised if Logan is retained. I can't remember a single shoiwng sofar where I was like "wow!".

Bottas this season have almost third amount of races like today. In others he is mostly in good form. Hulkenberg have good season too. And don't think Perez so bad, that he does not deserve place at Williams or Haas, for example. And we just don't have so many extremely good and ready to F1 juniors. 

Edited by JvsKVB77, 24 September 2023 - 18:05.

[ArchieTech]

Red Bull should be targeting Piastri. The kid is absolute dynamite and I believe would hound Max until his crown is stolen. He's still fresh and mouldable. RB would turn him into an absolute weapon. He's so calm and collected, young enough to accept a number 2 role as he matures but will bite at the first opportunity of glory. If and when Max has had enough Piastri would be an immediate lead.

 

I fear Lando would struggle at RB. Mclaren was a car DR couldn't understand, had to change his entire driving style. He likes the car like Max does. By that logic, Lando may find the same reverse effect having only known Mclaren.

Lando is pretty consistent in saying that the handling of the McLarens over the years is nothing like what he prefers and requires him to significantly adapt his driving style, even after the upgrades this year.

 

e.g. https://www.skysport...gp-expectations

Edited by ArchieTech, 24 September 2023 - 18:06.

[cjm321190]

I wanted Sargent to get a decent chance. But these crashes are impacting the team. I recon Drugovich needs a run out to see what he can do. We need two Albons. If Williams had Latifi and Sargent Zero points. That is scary as a Williams fan.

[FLB]

I wanted Sargent to get a decent chance. But these crashes are impacting the team.

I don't know if you saw it (or can find it), but there was a great moment during qualifying between James Vowles and Anthony Davidson on Sky. Basically, Davidson asked Vowles about the impact of Sargeant's accident on the budget cap and Vowles told him it was worse at this stage of the season. Apparently, the teams build a finite number of parts for the season and hope they don't have to build more than planned as the season progresses.

 

They won't run out of parts, but their stocks are getting stretched to the limits, to the point they may have to build older-spec parts for Sargeant with money that they were supposed to spend this year for development for next year.

[Racer3000]

Drugovich strikes me as a name I've been seeing far too long without him actually making it to F1, and a third-year F2 champion isn't normally something to shout about. I'd say if you can't win or nearly win F2 in your first year, you're not F1 material.

 

Not always, there are a lot of exceptions. Albon is a respected F1 driver today that ended on 10th in his F2 debut season and also was also beaten there by his teammate Matsuhita, who would be beaten by a rookie Drugovich when they were teammates at MP in the 2020 season.

[messy]

For me, Drugovich based only on his first and third seasons in F2, has much more about him than your usual run of the mill three year F2 driver…but that second season at UNI-Virtuosi, where he barely looked quick anywhere and was outpaced by Zhou, that’s the bit that gives me a doubt or two. He seemed to gel very well with MP Motorsport and not at all with the supposedly much better Virtuosi. Who even knows. Is he an exception, like Albon, where a driver with a relatively ordinary F2 record turns out to be a very good F1 driver? You could only go on the data from Aston Martin for that I guess. I really don’t have much of a gut instinct on it.

[jonklug]

I doubt Wolff would have shown Vowles Mick's data if it wasn't at the very least pretty decent. I think that Vowles simply wanted to continue with Sargeant because of the American's backing but he might reconsider now. Mick Schumacher was improving at Haas, pace wasn't really the issue, it was the mistakes. If he can correct that, he can turn into quite a decent driver imho, his weekends in Austria and Silverstone weren't accidents, you could never expect Sargeant to do what Mick did there. So yea I wouldn't rule him out for Williams still. 

[KWSN - DSM]

Bottas

 

You forget the sarcasm code emoji.

[Flyhigh]

I get the sense he'll be a Felipe Nasr level talent. Seem like similar guys.

Maybe the problem with Drugovitch is not being British? Otherwise he would certainly be in F1 with a much better opportunity, having been singed by some top Team driver´s school or something like it a while ago. "Like Nasr" who got the cut throat treatment, is more like Antony Davidson, Joilyon Palmer (5 years F1 journey man until title) with countless F1 opportunities, Paul Di Resta ( the underrated "legend" with no pre F1 resume who got so much F1 time)  Ralf Firman, etc, etc. Face it, until a while ago, If you are from the right country such as Brit, American, Japanese, finishing F2 in the top 3 and having a so, so jr career was plenty enough for top teams to have a very deep and hopeful look at you and give repeated opportunities at times.  

If you are from some "alternative" countries, Colombia, Brazil, Mexico, etc. you better have that almost Senna like resume to get into F1. And I mean even Senna, joined F1 in a Toleman, While the Prince of F1 mediocrity Martin Brundle joined with Tyrell at the time it was good, even though he was Senna´s toy in the Jr Formula....  Nasr would still be in F1 likely if he was Brit, American, Japanese or such...    
 

Edited by Flyhigh, 24 September 2023 - 23:38.

[potmotr]

Similar in that they're both wealthy well-founded Brazilians who did three seasons of F2/GP2 then needed to buy their way onto the grid.

[Flyhigh]

To me well founded with privileges are a lot of drivers from the right countries, who manage to get signed into team development programs, F1 testing and have ample repeated opportunities, are looked at multiple times in their careers. I was researching out of boredom a little bit into F2, GP2 finishers and I noticed that almost every single Brit who finished around the top 3 and had just a notable jr career managed to become some reserve F1 driver, some development program, do some testing for F1, have opportunities later on, etc.   There is always an "F1 activity section" in the Wikipedia for mediocre Jr drivers, if you are from the right country. 

That doesn´t usually happen with mediocre Brazilians for example, they either are great or they don´t get to sniff around in F1. Not just Brits, but Americans, Japanese, Germans... are looked at much more closely.. and is normal though, the commercial side always has some weight, they are pwoerhouses in the automobile/manufacture world, but the standards/requirements are not quite the same, although that has been changing recently more and more.  To say Drugovitch "bought" his way into some grid and not with his great overall jr career results and talent, is laughable though...   

Edited by Flyhigh, 24 September 2023 - 23:33.

[potmotr]

He clearly hasn't bought anything yet, but you can be sure he's trying. No disgrace there, a blend of ability, opportunity and outside funding is how the majority of the grid get their break.

Didn't XP/Porto Seguro tip in 7 million euros so Drugovich could be the Aston Martin reserve this season? Presume the figure being offered Williams is around there, or higher.

Not sure Brits have an any easier time getting to F1. Davidson, who you mentioned, had a stellar junior career and had to wait forever for his F1 chance, and it was with pretty average machinery.

Edited by potmotr, 24 September 2023 - 23:27.

[Flyhigh]

Define stellar, you mean stellar Kart career? Apart from Kart I found this before him joining F1 

"In 2001, Davidson competed in the British Formula Three championship with the Carlin team, finishing second overall to teammate Takuma Sato. His performance improved throughout the season and he outscored Sato from June until the season's end. He also won the Formula Three Pau Grand Prix, the Spa Masters^[3] and the FIA European Cup."

So he was below Sato in the only chassi seater before joining F1. 

[potmotr]

I believe Sato was the most dominant ever British F3 champion that year, at a time when British F3 was one of the main feeders to F1. Sato was widely regarded as the best Japanese driver ever when he landed in F1.

[SparkPlug86]

In short order...

 

Williams to replace Sargent with Schumacher...

 

Logan to be RB reserve, simply because after 3 races next year, Ricardo will get promoted to partner Max as Perez get's dropped... Logan jumps into the Alpha Tauri. 

 

RBR need to let Perez start the 2024 season as he has a contract, but then they can probably drop him pretty fast with performance clauses. 

[Anderis]

There were plenty of Brits with decent results who never got F1 seats. Sam Bird, James Calado and Oliver Rowland just from my memory and I don't even follow feeder series all that much.

[loki]

In short order...

 

Williams to replace Sargent with Schumacher...

 

Logan to be RB reserve, simply because after 3 races next year, Ricardo will get promoted to partner Max as Perez get's dropped... Logan jumps into the Alpha Tauri. 

 

RBR need to let Perez start the 2024 season as he has a contract, but then they can probably drop him pretty fast with performance clauses. 

I'd agree but I think it's more about who has the dough.  Looks like Williams will pretty handily beat Haas this year but so far back from Alpine I don't think it will matter this season.  They need that second car to start bringing in points.  If they can maintain a 6th next year they might offset whatever Sargeant is bringing.