180 replies to this topic

[Anja]

Dunne and Stenshorne are McLaren juniors now

[Amin]

Dunne and Stenshorne are McLaren juniors now

Great signings for McLaren and very happy for both drivers.

[Frood]

As am I. Another couple of good signings for McLaren.

 

(Now sign Taylor Barnard up permanently, too, and I'd be very happy!)

[Myrvold]

While I am happy to see another Norwegian get a shot.
Isn't McLaren kinda like the Alpine jr.programme have been for a while? A dead end in terms of F1?
I cant see Piastri or Norris leaving for some years, nor do I see McLaren wanting to swap them out.

[JvsKVB77]

While I am happy to see another Norwegian get a shot.
Isn't McLaren kinda like the Alpine jr.programme have been for a while? A dead end in terms of F1?
I cant see Piastri or Norris leaving for some years, nor do I see McLaren wanting to swap them out.

Martinius and Alex will be close to F1 at time, when Lando or Piastri current deals will expire, so this two had good timing. And McLaren have enough seats in different series to fill. 

Edited by JvsKVB77, 16 May 2024 - 09:48.

[Myrvold]

Martinius and Alex will be close to F1 at time, when Lando or Piastri current deals will expire, so this two had good timing. And McLaren have enough seats in different series to fill.

I see Norris & Piastri like a Häkkinen/Coulthard situation. Except they will not do a sabbatical. I wouldn't be surprised to see them race for McLaren in 2028 as well.

For the other series, it is a positive, and Norway hasn't had a driver in IndyCar either before.

[Anja]

While I am happy to see another Norwegian get a shot.
Isn't McLaren kinda like the Alpine jr.programme have been for a while? A dead end in terms of F1?
I cant see Piastri or Norris leaving for some years, nor do I see McLaren wanting to swap them out.

 

It's tough for any team that doesn't have its own engine customers to "persuade". A bit easier for someone down the field like Williams cause they have less to lose by just placing a rookie in their own seat.

Edited by Anja, 16 May 2024 - 10:06.

[Myrvold]

It's tough for any team that doesn't have its own engine customers to "persuade". A bit easier for someone down the field like Williams cause they have less to lose by just placing a rookie in their own seat.

In theory it should be for Sauber as well but I guess we can ask Pourchaire about that.

[William Hunt]

Martinius and Alex will be close to F1 at time, when Lando or Piastri current deals will expire, so this two had good timing. And McLaren have enough seats in different series to fill. 

 

Not true, they are already in F3 wich is just 2 steps below F1. When Norris & Piastri's contracts expire, good chance they both extend it further, they will likely have moved out of F2 already. McLaren's most talented junior is Ugo Ugochukwu. Ugo is in a way McLaren's Antonelli just like Lindblad is Red Bull(s Antonelli. Both Ugochukwu and Lindblad are a cleare step avove the other juniors in their respective academies: those are the two of the McLaren and Red Bull current roster surely to make F1.

 

So I can't see Dunne or Stenshorne getting in F1 at McLaren. I also rate McLaren's F2 star Gabriel Bortoleto, higher as boyh of them and I rate Pourchaire, now a McLaren IndyCar driver, slightly above Bortoleto and Ugochukwu avove all of them.

 

At Ferrari it's less clear who's their best talent: Camara or Taponen? And Beganovic is pretty goof as well but a bit below Camara & Taponen imho.

 

Freddie Slater, Gabriel Gomez and Dries Van Langendonck are currently the three biggest talents out there with no academy affiliation (in Slater's case that's his own choice).

Edited by William Hunt, 19 May 2024 - 05:48.

[McPedro]

Are we including NXT as a feeder? I can't see any chat anywhere else about it. 

Is NXT the American equivalent to F2? Some of the driving is bonkers. Chadwick got her race destroyed on the weekend due to a front wing being put in a non existance gap by the driver behind, yet here seemed to be no punishment for it? 

[Frood]

Are we including NXT as a feeder? I can't see any chat anywhere else about it.

Is NXT the American equivalent to F2? Some of the driving is bonkers. Chadwick got her race destroyed on the weekend due to a front wing being put in a non existance gap by the driver behind, yet here seemed to be no punishment for it?

There was some chat about the NXT race in the Detroit thread. To be honest, the NXT drivers were probably cleaner that the IndyCar drivers this weekend!

[Myrvold]

There was some chat about the NXT race in the Detroit thread. To be honest, the NXT drivers were probably cleaner that the IndyCar drivers this weekend!

 

IndyCar was NXT-Level indeed!

 

Nope. I will not quit my day-job.

Edited by Myrvold, 04 June 2024 - 09:19.

[Frood]

Boo! Get off the stage!

[BRG]

Is NXT the American equivalent to F2?

NXT uses a spec chassis with a AER Mazda based engine derived from one used in LMP2.  I would think it sits somewhere between F3 and F2, whilst Indy car proper sits between F2 and F1 in performance terms.

[JvsKVB77]

NXT uses a spec chassis with a AER Mazda based engine derived from one used in LMP2.  I would think it sits somewhere between F3 and F2, whilst Indy car proper sits between F2 and F1 in performance terms.

Difference in % of lap time

Edited by JvsKVB77, 04 June 2024 - 12:54.

[BRG]

Difference in % of lap time

 

Not sure when these various comparisons were made and of course there aren't many comparative races, but worryingly it seems to point to F2 being quicker than Indycars and  NXT being slower than F3.   And Superformula being quite close to F1 which begs the question why F1 doesn't scout out new drives from Japan.

[huggybear]

Not sure when these various comparisons were made and of course there aren't many comparative races, but worryingly it seems to point to F2 being quicker than Indycars and  NXT being slower than F3.   And Superformula being quite close to F1 which begs the question why F1 doesn't scout out new drives from Japan.

 

F1 used to scout drivers from Japanese F3 and Super Formula all the time, and used to send their drivers there all the time as well. I think the issue is not the series itself, but the fact that the champion only gets 25 SL points, but 3rd in F2 gets 40, so there's little incentive to pluck a kid from Super Formula because you'd have to sent them to F3 or F2 for a season for Super License points before parachuting them into F1

[JvsKVB77]

F1 used to scout drivers from Japanese F3 and Super Formula all the time, and used to send their drivers there all the time as well. I think the issue is not the series itself, but the fact that the champion only gets 25 SL points, but 3rd in F2 gets 40, so there's little incentive to pluck a kid from Super Formula because you'd have to sent them to F3 or F2 for a season for Super License points before parachuting them into F1

I think this is not main reason, Nojiri, Miyata and Hirakawa  had enough SLP for F1, but Europe series had more actual circuits, Pirelli, DRS and so closer to F1 things.

Edited by JvsKVB77, 06 June 2024 - 10:02.

[Anja]

Sztuka is out of the Red Bull programme. Not surprising considering his performance but it's a very quick decision. Despite this, he's supposed to keep his seat in F3 for the rest of the season. 

Edited by Anja, 16 June 2024 - 09:16.

[Jellyfishcake]

Sztuka is out of the Red Bull programme. Not surprising considering his performance but it's a very quick decision. Despite this, he's supposed to keep his seat in F3 for the rest of the season. 

 

I was kind of surprised they picked him up, but then dropping him after a handful of rounds seems odd though his results have not been particularly impressive. 

[William Hunt]

Sztuka is out of the Red Bull programme. Not surprising considering his performance but it's a very quick decision. Despite this, he's supposed to keep his seat in F3 for the rest of the season. 

Sztuka was in his 3rd season in F4 when he won that title. Now he had always struggled to find money to continue his carreer, he began every season never knowing if he could finish it so I was happy for him that Red Bull gave him the opportunity to drive in a higher category as F4 without having to worry all the time how to find the money. But I never would have picked him because there are better options imho.

 

I always assumed that Sztuka was picked up by Red Bull because Orlen sponsors Racing Bulls (RB or whatever people call them) these days. When Orlen sponsored Sauber, Sauber took several Polish drivers in their karting team (Orlen financed that off course). I thought RB took a Polish driver in their program, not because he won the title (he was in his third year after all so more experienced as the other title contenders) but to please Orlen.
 

Edited by William Hunt, 16 June 2024 - 20:05.

[Racer3000]

Not true, they are already in F3 wich is just 2 steps below F1. When Norris & Piastri's contracts expire, good chance they both extend it further, they will likely have moved out of F2 already. McLaren's most talented junior is Ugo Ugochukwu. Ugo is in a way McLaren's Antonelli just like Lindblad is Red Bull(s Antonelli. Both Ugochukwu and Lindblad are a cleare step avove the other juniors in their respective academies: those are the two of the McLaren and Red Bull current roster surely to make F1.

 

So I can't see Dunne or Stenshorne getting in F1 at McLaren. I also rate McLaren's F2 star Gabriel Bortoleto, higher as boyh of them and I rate Pourchaire, now a McLaren IndyCar driver, slightly above Bortoleto and Ugochukwu avove all of them.

 

I don't see the same talent you see on Ugo. On karts, he was the slowest compared to his Kart Republic teammates, Antonelli, Câmara and Lindblad (although the first two were on their second year in the OK category). And in F4, driving for Prema, Ugo impressed me less than Dunne driving for US Racing. And now in FRECA his performances are leaving to be desired. I think he's a good driver and still very young, but I don't find him more talented than Pourchaire, Bortoleto and Dunne.

 

Anyway, he could prove me wrong in the future. I believe next year Prema drivers in F3 will be Lindblad, Câmara and Ugo, so we'll see. 

[Frood]

Red Bull have been busy recently. They've relaunched the Red Bull Driver Search, and recently rented out Jerez to test out some 13-16 year olds in old GP3 and Formula 4 cars.

 

Initially, two names were announced as joining the junior team:

 

Scott Lindblom, 15, Swedish – Son of STCC driver Jan Lindblom and grandson of motocross rider Christer Lindblom. He finished 3rd at last year's FIA Junior World Championship and is leading the WSK Euro Series in OK this year.

Fionn McLaughlin, 16, Irish – A previous championship runner-up British karting. Finished 3rd this year in Champions of the Future OK class. Currently ranked in the top 10 in the FIA's karting rankings.

 

I don't really keep up with karting, so I can't say too much on how these guys will fare in the future, but they're obviously good in karts.

 

Today, they have announced they've signed another four:

 

Rocco Coronel, 13, Dutch – Another driver with plenty of pedigree. His dad (former WTCC driver Tom Coronel), uncles (Tim and Raymond) as well as mother and grandfather (Paulien and Klaas Zwart) have all been involved in motorsport. He finished 5th in CotF OK Junior this year, and is ranked 7th in OK Junior according to the FIA.

Christopher Feghali, 15, Lebanese – finished 13th in the FIA OK Junior World Championship last year.

 

The other two are already in cars, so I can give a bit more of an opinion:

 

Jules Caranta, 16, French – Currently 2nd in French F4

Caranta looked immediately rapid when he popped up in UAE F4 at the start of the year, and finished as the top driver in the championship with no previous open-wheel experience. He's translated that into plenty of speed in French F4 this year, and currently sits 9 points off of championship leader Yani Stevenheydens with two rounds to go. He's taken 4 wins - the same as Stevenheydens - but the Belgian has a year of experience in the series in 2023 compared to Caranta, so Caranta is performing fantastically. I think he could be a good choice.

 

Ernesto Rivera, 15, Mexican – Currently 5th in Spanish F4

Rivera didn't quite gel straight away in the off-season Formula Winter Series, but has looked a lot more comfortable in his full-season Spanish campaign. He does sit a fair way behind the championship leaders, but all 4 drivers ahead of him in the standings driver for MP Motorsport, who have been dominant in Spanish F4 this year. More importantly, he is ahead of all his Campos team-mates, including two drivers already in the Red Bull programme in the more experienced James Egozi and the admittedly underwhelming Enzo Tarnvanichkul. He did a good job in his British F4 cameo at Zandvoort, finishing ahead of all the other one-off drivers.

 

Determined not to be outdone by Red Bull, McLaren have signed the karter whom the FIA deem to be atop their rankings – 13-year-old Belgian Dries van Langendonck, the 2023 World Junior champion.

Edited by Frood, 11 September 2024 - 14:37.

[Frood]

Nikola Tsolov has left the Alpine Academy.

 

In other news, Nikola Tsolov has joined the Red Bull Academy. They've also signed an Austrian karter named Niklas Schaufler, who has won various karting titles and was runner-up in COTF as well.

 

Not quite sure I understand why Red Bull have signed Tsolov, to be honest. He did very little in his first season of F3; this year was a much better season but he wasn't a stand-out performer in my opinion. He also arguably should have had at least a race ban after his antics in Melbourne.

[Frood]

Sauber have almost completely wiped their academy today - Maloney, Pourchaire, Bühler and Schreiner gone. This leaves them only with karter Taym Saleh and next year's F1 Academy driver Emma Felbermayr.

To be fair, now Maloney has a paid gig, Pourchaire has a… something, Schreiner is barred from entering F1 Academy again, and Bühler was terrible, it’s not exactly a surprise.

Will get around to doing the academy round-up for this year at some point over the Christmas break.

Edited by Frood, 18 December 2024 - 22:31.

[Jellyfishcake]

Feels like they're cleaning house prior to the Audi branding taking over.

Because they're obliged to run an F1A it means they've only really got the karter as a true junior now.

 

Meanwhile, missed your previous post, Red Bull signing Tsolov is just another one of those weird RB Jr team signings that have littered the F1 feeder series in the last 5-10 years now

[William Hunt]

I guess it's time to either make a new thread for this topic.

 

Maybe one named Junior Academy Programs 2025-2026-2027 or... to simply rename this thread by dropping the '2022-2023-2024' part from the title. The second choice seems more desireable imho, I guess one of the moderators can decide that.

For now I'm posting this latest news here: 'Mercedes signs world karting champion Ethan Jeff-Hall as F1 junior' (source Formula Scout)

https://formulascout...1-junior/128070

 

Of further interest in that article:

 

"Mercedes’ signing of an “over the moon” Jeff-Hall means he is no longer in contention to join the Ferrari Driver Academy. Last October he contested its scouting world final, and a winner is still yet to be announced."  (quote Formula Scout article)

 

 

Normally Ferrari tends to announce the winner of their FDA world final scouting event in December. In 2023 that didn't happen either ....because the winner of that scouting event, René Lammers (well his dad Jan Lammers actually decided this) refused to become a Ferrari junior because... there already was a verbal agreement in place that René would compete with the Dutch team MP Motorsport in Spanish F4 and this would provide the opportunity to stay with a Dutch team from F4 all the way until F2.

Ferrari always puts their juniors in F4 at Prema in Italian F4.

 

René Lammers, who entered F4 last year with a very high reputation, ended up having a very dissapointing rookie F4 campaign in Spain last year. So Ferrari might have been relieved about missing out on him. However that doesn't mean that his ultimate potential and ceiling has decreased. A second season in F4 will be crucial for his carreer, he has to be competitive and challenge for the title then if F1 is still the goal for René. The kid is very talented, I'm confident he will have a much stronger season in 2025 and that he still can reach F1.

 

 

This year four young drivers (usually it's a mix of 2 or 3 karting drivers with 1 or 2 F4 drivers) were anounced by Ferrari as the finalists for the FDA Scouting World Final in 2024:

- Ethan Jeff-Hall (UK) 16 years old at the time of the Final

- Thibaut Ramaekers  (Bel) 14

- Iacobo Martinese  (Ita) 14

- Costa Toparis  (Aus)  19 + F4 experience

 

Link: https://www.f1technical.net/news/25610

 

* Martinese & Toparis got in the Scouting process as chosen by the Italian & Australian federations, who are both Ferrari partners for their scouting. Imho Jeff-Hall & Ramaekers were the two real major candidates. So I would assume that Ramaekers, has won that final? He's currently supported by the Belgian automobile federation RACB currently and is not a driver with lots of budget but he's hugely talented and considering he is younger as Jeff-Hall he would have been the most sensible choice for Ferrari imho (more time to develop someone).

 

I do think Mercedes got themselves a very talented junior though with Jeff-Hall (as he also has shown already in Ginetta Juniors) though.

 

 

I do think that Martinese is a very interesting driver to look at for a Junior F1 program as well.

In the FIA European karting championship Martinese came third behind Oleksandr Bondarev (Williams Jr, Ukraine) and Thibaut Ramaekers in 2023 and third again in 2024 behind Dries Van Langendonck (McLaren, Belgium) and Christian Costoya (Spain, managed by Nicholas Todt).

So he is one with potential as well.

 

 

So when will Ferrari anounce their new Junior? We're already Februari now and they are in need of new blood for their Ferrari Driver Academy (FDA) since they ended up not selecting anyone new after the Lammers fiasco the last edition.

There is off course the possibility, Formula Scout didn't mention that but it's possible, that Ethan Jeff-Hall, like René Lammers the year before, did win the FDA Scouting Final but... that he like Lammers elected to turn down the price (becoming an official Ferrari Driver Academy Junior). In favour of Mercedes in this case.
If that would be true, that would be terrible for the image of Ferrari. But even then they could still opt for Ramaekers in that scenario, he's a natural talent who belongs in an F1 academy anyway.

[Jellyfishcake]

I can't judge fully as I don't watch Spanish F4, but it really seems that turning down Ferrari (and then presumably Prema in F4) was a bad choice by René Lammers (13th in F4, 9th of the ones considered rookies) with just 1 podium.

And not just that, he was the worst performing MP driver too, with his teammates 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 9th thats got to be a concern already, i'm not sure if just challenging would be enough I reckon he'd need to wipe the floor to get back some rep

 

Interesting that McLaren have placed Alex Dunne in F2, rather than having him return to F3 for a second season, I wonder if the fact F3 has a new car this year is part of the consideration here, as a 14th place with 2 sprint podiums wouldn't suggest he was quite ready.

Though from memory I feel he had better pace than the results showed in the end.

[William Hunt]

People probably don't realize it but... the Spanish F4 series easily had the strongest field in their entire history. That puts things more in perspective.

Sure I agree, for a driver with the potential of René Lammers his campaign was bitterly disappointing.

 

There were also several other poor campaigns of drivers who should have done better: Adam Hideg (17th), Gabriel Gomez (18th) or Red Bull Junior Enzo Tarnvanichkul 12th (I was always of the opinion that Red Bull should have picked his Tony Kart team mate Jan Przyrowski instead of him, Przyrowski ended up 10th overall but he did have a considerable stronger campaign as Tarnvanichkul imho) just one spot ahead of Lammers.

 

That Mattia Colnaghi ended up the champion in such a strong field is very surprising but he did deserve it.

 

But the biggest surprise in the standings surely was Andrés Cardenas. From a driver who finished 8th overall in Spanish F4 in 2023 and then was runner up (2nd) in the F4 Winter Series to then only finish 14th overall with a best result of two 6th places in the main series... You could say that was a stinker of a campaign by the Peruvian, even more considering it was his 2nd year in Spanish F4.

But that clearly shows that the 2024 field was much more competitive and stronger as the previous (in fact all) Spanish F4 fields.

 

Thomas Strauven had a very strong rookie campaign in both the F4 Winter Series as the main Spanish F4 championship. He's not a driver with lots of money behind him and isn't supported by an F1 junior program. He scored 4 podiums out of the first 6 races as a rookie and he won the second race) and still ended up 7th overall despite missing the final 3 races otherwise he most likely would have been 5th overall...

 

What you're saying about him turning down the Ferrari offer is easier to say now because we've got hindsight knowledge. A full year ago we didn't have the knowledge we have now. Don't forget that Jan Lammers already had Dutch financial backers who were already looking far ahead and planning to back René all the way to F2 but that had to be with the Dutch team MP Motorsport.

 

So choosing that path means he also keeps his independence from F1 Junior programs much longer and that is contrary to what people think a big advantage since you can join a program much much later then (if you keep performing all those years off course). Joining an F1 program much later is an advantage because by that time you will have a much more realistic view whether that F1 junior program could result in a race seat.

 

I'm not convinced he René Lammers would have been that better off in the Italian F4, where Ferrari would have placed him. He would have been forced to compete with Freddie Slater then, who is a mega talent (but Lammers had that reputation just as well as Slater when he entered F4...) with part time campaigning in F4 in 2023 and who dominated Ginetta Juniors.

 

Mercedes & Alpine Juniors Alex Powell and Kean Nakamura-Berta (already dropped by Alpine after his debut season in cars, ridiculous but then the Alpine academy can't be taken seriously at all. On top of that they're taking pay drivers, they don't develop drivers with a long term plan. Worst academy for sure), both high potentials and smilar talents like Lammers, both got blown away by Slater. Tomass Stolcermanis and Rashid Al Dharreri (he was so amazing in OK Junior but had a fall back to earth in OK Senior, still high potential), two other high potentials with lots of raw talent, only finished up 9th & 10th overall.

 

So not sure if Lammers would have been that better off in Italian F4. In my opinion he also struggled to adapt to cars from karts last year during the F4 Winter Series although he did gather speed after a few races, the initial struggle was real. That's okay if that happens in your rookie season, you can have a learning year in your first season racing cars. He did show flashes of raw speed that don't reflect in the results though. But in year 2 you really need to perform strongly then: it's a must. You can't have two disappointing seasons in a row and still expect to stay on the F1 teams junior radar.

 

Ferrari does have an excellent track record of bringing drivers to F1 though. So does Mercedes. But you never know where the opportunities are by the time that driver arrives in F2. That timing is crucial. Some huge talents have had bad timing or were stuck in the wrong F1 junior program (Théo Pourchaire is a perfect example of a driver in the wrong junior program. I would also avoid the Alpine program at all costs but... it did give Jack Doohan an F1 opportunity, for how long though?).

 

Edited by William Hunt, 06 February 2025 - 01:21.

[Jellyfishcake]

Good information William, and fair point regarding the hindsight of picking an academy,

I think you're right absolutely bang on with the assessment of Alpine, no way can anyone sit there and recommend it as a way to support drivers for the future.

Even Doohan is a reluctant hire, and likely to not get much of a season. And he also made the switch to Alpine at a much higher level than Lammers currently is.

[Frood]

The Mercedes Academy has had a few new additions. The main headline signings are Noah Strømsted, who will race in FIA F3 with Trident this year; and Rashid Al Dhaheri, racing with Prema in FRECA. They'll also have Andy Consani in French F4, and Ethan Jeff-Hall (who was a potential Ferrari junior at the end of 2024) in British F4. 

 

Strømsted is an odd one, as he was fairly impressive in FRECA last year as a rookie with a lesser team (RPM), though it's hard to judge exactly where RPM stands in the FRECA hierarchy as his team-mates were pretty useless. His Formula 4 career was confusing, as he burst onto the scene as a guest driver in Spanish F4 in 2022 with a string of impressive results straight away. Campos signed him for a full season in 2023, but he struggled to show consistent speed and ended up 7th in the standings behind team-mates Christian Ho, Enzo Deligny, and Matteo de Palo. I thought he could have done with another year in F4 but he went to FRECA and impressed.

 

Al Dhaheri is another interesting case. He spent two years in Italian F4 with Prema, failing to win a race. Still, he'll graduate into FRECA this year with Prema, and has already had outings in the Middle East with them where, somewhat surprisingly, he ran highly-rated team-mate Freddie Slater very close in terms of race pace, but again, failed to win a race.