Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

2023 AMG Mercedes-Petronas F1 Team Thread


  • Please log in to reply
7358 replies to this topic

#7351 JeanAlesi27

JeanAlesi27
  • Member

  • 737 posts
  • Joined: March 23

Posted 02 December 2023 - 00:38

The slow pitstops are just inexcusable. Not only is it equivalent to lost laptime over a race distance, just as importantly if not more, they’re losing actual positions. Affecting strategy, tyre management, everything. Other teams are routinely in the low 2 seconds and can put in a 2.4 second pitstop without a sweat. Mercedes is in the 3 seconds, often 3.5 seconds. Just completely inexcusable for any decent team, let alone a top one.

 

Toto brushing it off is really hard to believe.   I remember the Nico/Lewis years in their battles slow stops being discussed because it definitely had an influence on their fights...  but in todays context where they are losing time versus the entire field on some occasions...  that's just crazy.



Advertisement

#7352 gillesfan76

gillesfan76
  • Member

  • 9,280 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 02 December 2023 - 00:41

We can hit every offense with a DQ and all would be a thing of the past.

All I’m saying is that there are far more dangerous offenses than a brake check. No one was ever hurt by a brake check and cars had only minor damages in the worst cases.

 

Again, many things happen in close racing where the accident is caused by misjudgement, driver error, lack of grip, loss of car control etc. Sometimes very dangerous things happen because of no ill intent but simply driver error. These things warrant a reasonable and not overly harsh penalty. We want close racing, we want drivers taking risks and we want drivers to have a reasonable penalty when they get it wrong.

 

However any intentional action of forcing the other driver to evade should face harsh punishment. Even if there is no contact, even if it’s claimed to not be dangerous, even if it’s at low speed like when Vettel intentionally banged wheels with Hamilton in Baku 2017. That applies if the other driver intentionally opens their steering to force the driver on the outside of the corner off. It applies if the other driver on the outside intentionally turns into the driver on the inside to force them off line or over the inside kerbs. It applies if the driver in front intentionally hits the brakes to force the driver behind to panic and evade i.e not for the purpose of braking for a corner. Any intentional action like this should be a race DSQ. It’s not harsh because you have a driver intentionally trying to spook and bully the other driver in order to come out ahead.

 

The worst offences are of course an intentional collision, full Maldonado e.g purposely running into another car, and these should be punished by anything between a 3 race ban to loss of superlicence depending on severity. But while a brake check is not intentionally trying to cause a collision, it’s only one step behind because it presupposes the driver behind having to take an action to evade certain collision. I see what some are doing is saying “A brake check isn’t intentionally trying to cause a collision so it’s not that bad.”. Well no, it’s not as bad as intentionally spearing into another car, but it’s much worse than a genuine driver mistake. So clearly there are three broad categories of driver offences.

 

It just isn’t that difficult to understand unless one is simply mentally resistant to considering it in a logical and authentic way.


Edited by gillesfan76, 02 December 2023 - 00:43.


#7353 Brian60

Brian60
  • Member

  • 579 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 03 December 2023 - 16:34

I’ve seen 3 brake tests in my time;
- Villeneuve on Montoya
- Verstappen on Hamilton
- Alonso on Hamilton

Should always be a blatant DQ, highly dangerous.

You forgot Senna on Mansell at Monaco - I remember that Mansell even commented on it to Murray Walker post race interview.



#7354 mclara

mclara
  • Member

  • 2,224 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 03 December 2023 - 17:14

You forgot Senna on Mansell at Monaco - I remember that Mansell even commented on it to Murray Walker post race interview.


Brake tests are fun.
Because you always get some hilarious arguments from the fans of the frimerker who performed the brake test

#7355 DW46

DW46
  • Member

  • 1,692 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 03 December 2023 - 17:31

You forgot Senna on Mansell at Monaco - I remember that Mansell even commented on it to Murray Walker post race interview.


In my defence I was 5.

#7356 BleuMurmure

BleuMurmure
  • Member

  • 492 posts
  • Joined: June 22

Posted 31 December 2023 - 10:22

Russell: Hamilton and I trust each other amid tense F1 battles

 

Nice of George to say these things.



#7357 DW46

DW46
  • Member

  • 1,692 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 31 December 2023 - 10:26

Russell: Hamilton and I trust each other amid tense F1 battles

Nice of George to say these things.



I bet it’s a strange feeling racing against people you watched on tv growing up, especially when your job is to dethrone them. I’m still enjoying the intra team battle, expected the two seasons to occur in reverse with Lewis starting stronger and George improving in year two.

Still think Sakhir 2020 was George’s best performance.

#7358 Pingu Pi

Pingu Pi
  • Member

  • 3,065 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 31 December 2023 - 20:35

I bet it’s a strange feeling racing against people you watched on tv growing up, especially when your job is to dethrone them. I’m still enjoying the intra team battle, expected the two seasons to occur in reverse with Lewis starting stronger and George improving in year two.
Still think Sakhir 2020 was George’s best performance.

I was impressed by George stepping into the car and being on it, but it also just showed how good the 2020 car was and also how beaten Bottas was by this point.

George should have been in the car in 2021 and it irks me that Mercedes were too confident of their advantage and it bit them in the arse that year.

However I also take George's words a little disingenuous about being zero between him and Lewis this year. It was very clear Lewis was noticeably faster in races and as Bottas says, the data was always there and he could see the gap. George can see the gap and that's where his push and mistakes are coming from... He knows he's a couple of tenths shy in race trim.

I'm brutal and personally don't think he'll ever truly bridge that gap on skill. He may start to be faster than Lewis but I think this point age is more of a factor than George's ability, he's been around for 5 years, the best don't take 5 years to come to fruition in modern racing.

Edited by Pingu Pi, 31 December 2023 - 20:40.


#7359 DW46

DW46
  • Member

  • 1,692 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 31 December 2023 - 21:29

I was impressed by George stepping into the car and being on it, but it also just showed how good the 2020 car was and also how beaten Bottas was by this point.

George should have been in the car in 2021 and it irks me that Mercedes were too confident of their advantage and it bit them in the arse that year.

However I also take George's words a little disingenuous about being zero between him and Lewis this year. It was very clear Lewis was noticeably faster in races and as Bottas says, the data was always there and he could see the gap. George can see the gap and that's where his push and mistakes are coming from... He knows he's a couple of tenths shy in race trim.

I'm brutal and personally don't think he'll ever truly bridge that gap on skill. He may start to be faster than Lewis but I think this point age is more of a factor than George's ability, he's been around for 5 years, the best don't take 5 years to come to fruition in modern racing.

.


Largely agree but next years the acid test.