23 replies to this topic

[brands77]

The recent, how to put it, uproar? in the F1 arena regarding Red Bull's breaking of the cost cap, got me thinking. I can't think of any parallels in Motobike GP racing.

 

I think the anger from Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes at Red Bull has a number of origins: politics, getting at Christian Horner, because they think he is an irritating little git, and probably a deep suspicion that Red Bull were cheating.

 

F1 has a long history of cheating - Ferrari's probably illegal engines from 2019, Benetton's supposedly not used illegal electronic launch control from 2002 and Tyrrell using ball bearing in their fuel to ballast underweight cars, to name but a few. I think of this as manufacturer/team cheating and then there is the driver cheating. Schumacher - crashing into Hill and Villeneuve in 94 and 97, Schumacher's "accident" in Monaco in 2006, Nelson Piquet jr's deliberate crash in 2008, that Alonso knew nothing about and Senna taking out Prost in 1989. To name but a few.

 

Motorbike GP racing has far, far less of this reported and but is this actually so, after all the characters are very similar, the stakes are similar and the technologies/rules are similar. I can't believe Motorbike racers and teams are inherently more honest than F1 racers or that the scrutineers are less diligent and vigilant.

 

The only examples of cheating that come to mind to me are: team cheating - Otello Buscherini, I seem to remember, got caught using an oversize engine in the 70s, in this forum it has been alluded to that illegal additives to fuel was commonplace in the 70s and 80s, and the recent blocking or holding by Moto3 mechanics from Max Biaggi's team of Adrian Fernanadez but beyond this I can't think of anything else and certainly nothing from the big teams.

 

In rider cheating, well, Capirossi and Spencer did a Schumacher and punted off rivals to win titles, Capirossi also benefited from fellow Italians actively interfering with Hans Spaan to win his first title, although how much he had to do with I am not sure and Angel Nieto, I had heard was not averse to playing with other rider's brakes and throttles during racing, this is hearsay though.

 

Am I missing something, the examples of bike cheating are far fewer and much less recent than F1 cheating, so is the incidence of it less? Or is it that the FIM/Dorna has a different way of dealing with things, that bike racers are better at it or something else!

 

 

 

[tonyed]

Comes to mind - bandit 500cc motors in the late 60s. 630s some of them. At Mallory Park the bridge over the start/finish straight (gone now) would have mechanics etc on it seeing when the riders changed gear coming out of Devils Elbow. The bandit motors changed up later than the 500s.

According to Jon Ekerolds book another South African rider who rode for Kawasaki was suspected of using illegal fuel. It seemed odd that there was never any left in the tank at the end of the for testing. 

It depends on your definition of cheating. I would not call some aspects of 'heated on track differences of opinion on line or speed' necessarily cheating. Even in the case of Hans Spaan and the mafia there just weren't enough 'cloggies' on track to fight back.

To me the most obvious form of on track cheating we see is the 'block pass'. In my opinion just stuffing a bike up the inside of a rider ahead and then blocking him is cheating and much more so than running slightly off track, unless it is every lap.

However in F1 there is so much money, so many bloated egos, it isn't a sport it is an industry and should be seen as such, so don't expect sporting behavior.

Don't forget back when in the 50s and 60s it was not uncommon for the no1 drivers car to expire and the poor old no2 had to pull into the pits and give up his car. If that ain't cheating what is?   

[GregThomas]

Probably the most verifiable cheating would be fuel in speedway. I remember stories going around NZ speedway coming from riders with Continental experience of a lot of the Poles using nitro. They weren't the only ones and I'm pretty sure some were caught.

I look at the current Speedway GP's on TV and think - either he's got a bloody good motor or suspect fuel. For a formula with supposedly identical spec engines there's a wide performance gap visible.

[Robin127]

Mick Grant supposedly had an oversize tank in the F1TT in 1980.  He was seen bashing it to put dents in to reduce the capacity at the end of the race, his excuse was that it was "out of excitement of winning."

 

Geoff McMullan won the Lightweight TT (400cc) in 2000, but it was later found that it was a 600 and it was suspected that he'd been using it for a year or so prior to that.  Apparently his excuse was that it was a 400 bored out to use 600 pistons but still and the original head so there was no performance gain.

Edited by Robin127, 18 December 2022 - 00:16.

[tonyed]

Perhaps many (?) might not class the Fart Fartez 'getting off the long lap penalty' for attempting to maim fellow riders by his 'team' appealing to the court of arbitration and not having to serve what was a very light penalty for what can only be described as assault. 

Honda have gone down further in my opinion due to this, difficult as it seems to me.

Seems that Alberto Puig and his fellow ???????????? have no sporting instincts at all.

Deplorable               

'For the Love of the Sport'

Effin laughable.

It's better without the likes of these.

No class - No hope

Edited by tonyed, 10 May 2023 - 14:39.

[GregThomas]

Put the blame where it belongs. The stewards. They stuffed it up by not realising he was injured enough to skip Argentina - and then verbally confirming the penalty only applied to Argentina.

The subsequent attempt to have the penalty carried over was never going to apply after their first big mistake

 

Honda were only doing their job as team principals.

 

And NO, I don't like it either

[tonyed]

To the letter of the law, true, however, whereas Quatararo had to serve his long lap penalty in the race for what everyone realises was a racing incident, Marquez gets away with no penalty again. 

Typical of the idiot and the idiot behind him.

Two people the sport would be better off without.

Who will he maim next? 

[GregThomas]

Well, he is doing quite a good job of self-harming.  When your riding style is "Sydney or the bush" luck runs out and it's the bush more and more often.

[Michael Ferner]

Sorry, but I don't follow the current racing... What is a "long lap penalty"? 

[tonyed]

A long lap penalty is a means of an in-race penalty in the form of having to proceed, during the race through a lane, constructed for this purpose on the outside of a designated bend which costs the rider about 3 to 5 seconds depending on the circuit and how this penalty lane is designed.

If race direction deems (based I think on whether you are Spanish or not) the rider has caused another rider an obstruction, or off track violation or if you are not Spanish either during the race or training/qualification session then they can instruct the rider to take anything from one to (if really unlucky, I'll explain) an infinite number of long lap penalties.

If during your long lap penalty you transgress, like touch the white line or not being Spanish, then race direction can enforce another the rider to take another long lap. Keep violating the long lap or not taking out Spanish nationality can result in the rider continuing the penalty until race direction deem that rider to be no longer a threat to a Spaniard winning the race. 

Certain Spanish riders are exempt if they have the initials M M, whatever their racing violation or violation of the the 'human rights act', may be and how it amounts to physical assault, death or worse. 

Hope that clears that up.

Long and the short of it is if you happen to be Marc Marquez you are likened to James Bond - License to Kill.          

[Michael Ferner]

 

I thought they were all Spanish by now, anyway!

 

Thanks for the explanation; interesting concept!

[tonyed]

I thought F1 had 'long laps' 

When Carlos Fandango deploys his drag reduction mode, DRS?, and shoots up the inside of the driver in front, exercising his ambition over talent quotient and forces matey into the wilderness off track. I thought that was along lap penalty.

Yes unfortunately in MotoGP even the Italians are Spanish.  

However, if he can survive the will to crash when leading it could be Bagnaia on the Spanish Ducati (what Mototrans?)  winning again          

[Rodaknee]

Dunno why they have needed to create special part of the track into 'Long Lap Loops', when a slow ride down the pit lane is free and in many cases a proper penalty for being a nob.

I wonder if the Jamie Witham penalty is still observed - a clout round the bonce at the back of the pits if rumours are correct.

[tonyed]

The Whitham penalty - Tut tut Rodaknee you know rider safety is paramount.   

[Helvetica]

Some bugger cheated back in 1979 (or maybe it was 1980) when Rudi and I flew to the Silverstone GP in our home-built Vari-Eze, so I could work there as interpreter. Sometime over the weekend someone nearly emptied our fuel tank - the tank had been 3/4 full because we had filled up with AvGas in Lydd. Because the heat expanded the little fuel that the thief left us, the fuel amount on the gauge looked OK to fly to Blackpool during the pre-flight check. It wasn't until the air in flight cooled the tank and fuel that we realised we had hardly any fuel left, so we had to do an emergency landing in Coventry. The thief obviously stole the AvGas to put into a racing bike with no consideration of the fact that he put our lives at risk.

Dane (for Those Who Remember )

Edited by Helvetica, 30 June 2023 - 23:48.

[LittleChris]

Great to see you back here Dane. Any idea who the git was ?

[tonyed]

 

Dane and Rudi feature about 2/3rds of the way through

 

Always had a soft spot for the Cat Crescent having raced a Crescent solo in the 70s

Edited by tonyed, 01 July 2023 - 07:18.

[Helvetica]

No, no idea. The ACU had kindly provided us with a caravan to sleep in which was quite a way away from the runway where the Eze was parked. Such a stupidly selfish and dangerous thing to do.

[brands77]

I did some digging around and found accusations of cheating for two of the biggest names.

 

Marc Marquez's team was accused of using a non standard ecu in Moto2 throughout the season in 2012, the year he won. I'm not sure how reliable source he is but Ant West said that Thomas Luthi complained about it and was told to accept 2nd place or he wouldn't be racing next season. Anyone know anything about this? I have also heard in relation to this that, as a Honda contracted rider, he used a non spec engine from Honda (Honda being the sole engine supplier in Moto2 then). I find this less easy to believe as thought the engines were sealed.

 

Rossi's team were apparently caught at the 2004 Qatar GP laying down extra rubber on Rossi's grid spot overnight by doing burnouts, so as to give him extra grip for the start. Again can anyone shed further light on this?

[Robin127]

I'd heard about the ECU thing at the time and I can quite believe that it happened.  As for the grid burn outs:

 

https://www.crash.ne...st-qatar-motogp

[brands77]

So Rossi's transgression was not an overnight secret operation, but pretty open and something they never hid. Unlike the Marquez ecu claims. That I can believe...

[tonyed]

Funny how Honda have the gall to accuse others of cheating. 

Was it not Hondas mantra, 'Cheat on Sunday, sell on Monday' 

So happy that the the pigeons coming home to roost 

I am prepared to take any NXA250s off your hands for a song to save you the embarrassment of owning one

[milestone 11]

Some bugger cheated back in 1979 (or maybe it was 1980) when Rudi and I flew to the Silverstone GP in our home-built Vari-Eze, so I could work there as interpreter. Sometime over the weekend someone nearly emptied our fuel tank - the tank had been 3/4 full because we had filled up with AvGas in Lydd. Because the heat expanded the little fuel that the thief left us, the fuel amount on the gauge looked OK to fly to Blackpool during the pre-flight check. It wasn't until the air in flight cooled the tank and fuel that we realised we had hardly any fuel left, so we had to do an emergency landing in Coventry. The thief obviously stole the AvGas to put into a racing bike with no consideration of the fact that he put our lives at risk.
Dane (for Those Who Remember )

Nice to see you here again Dane, Hope all is well.

[flatlandsman]

I know that once Rob McElnea was caught using an oversize engine somewhere, not sure.

 

Iain Duffus was thrown out of a TT win or podium for the same thing

 

I am convinced the Leopard Moto3 team are doing something very clever with their Honda Moto3 bike as at times it is routinely miles faster than any other Honda on the grid, despite other teams having great riders etc, it has been protested but never found anything!