Jump to content


Photo

Alfa Romeo in 1950 - question


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#1 F1Frog

F1Frog
  • Member

  • 990 posts
  • Joined: August 21

Posted 19 December 2022 - 19:23

There were six races in the 1950 season, where the Alfa Romeo was the dominant car and led every lap bar seven. Giuseppe Farina won three races (Silverstone, Bremgarten, Monza) and Juan Manuel Fangio won three races (Monaco, Spa-Francorchamps, Reims). Fangio retired from the other three with mechanical failures, while Farina retired from two (Monaco due to a crash, Reims with car problems), but nursed a sick car to fourth in Spa-Francorchamps which ultimately won him the championship. Meanwhile Luigi Fagioli finished second four times behind his teammates, third in Monza also behind Alberto Ascari's Ferrari and was taken out in the Tabac carnage in Monaco.

 

The 'popular narrative' appears to be that Fangio was faster than Farina but lost the championship due to bad luck, but while he did take four poles to Farina's two, reading the race reports makes the two drivers seem incredibly evenly-matched (Farina also led more laps during the season), and they appeared equally-deserving of the title. So my question is, was Fangio actually better than Farina in 1950 and lost because of more bad luck, or was Farina actually just as good as Fangio and has been unfairly downplayed by history? Secondly, why did Luigi Fagioli not have the same mechanical dramas as his two faster teammates. Was it just dumb luck or was he pushing the car less?



Advertisement

#2 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,513 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 19 December 2022 - 19:40

IIRC Luigi Fagioli technically "Won" a race in which he shared the car of the eventual 1st place finisher.



#3 F1Frog

F1Frog
  • Member

  • 990 posts
  • Joined: August 21

Posted 19 December 2022 - 19:44

IIRC Luigi Fagioli technically "Won" a race in which he shared the car of the eventual 1st place finisher.

That was Reims in 1951, Fagioli's only race of that season and the final one of his career.



#4 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 6,412 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 19 December 2022 - 21:38

The 'popular narrative' appears to be that Fangio was faster than Farina but lost the championship due to bad luck, but while he did take four poles to Farina's two, reading the race reports makes the two drivers seem incredibly evenly-matched (Farina also led more laps during the season), and they appeared equally-deserving of the title. So my question is, was Fangio actually better than Farina in 1950 and lost because of more bad luck, or was Farina actually just as good as Fangio and has been unfairly downplayed by history? Secondly, why did Luigi Fagioli not have the same mechanical dramas as his two faster teammates. Was it just dumb luck or was he pushing the car less?

Like many driver comparisons, there's no definitive answer. Fangio and Farina undoubtedly were close in performance. In the races, they would pace themselves to reach the finish, making speed comparisons tricky. I don't recall Farina's achievement being downplayed, and Fangio held his skills in high regard according to the Giambertone/Fangio book "My Twenty Years of Racing".



#5 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 82,318 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 19 December 2022 - 21:57

There was some discussion in the Raymond Mays/Peter Roberts BRM book comparing the two at Albi...

 

Something about Fangio being more consistently accurate, if I recall.



#6 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,971 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 December 2022 - 21:58

Until 1948 it was usual for the Alfa team to decide their 'favourite' winner of a race in advance. Was it the same in 1950 or was there 'free racing' among the drivers?



#7 F1Frog

F1Frog
  • Member

  • 990 posts
  • Joined: August 21

Posted 19 December 2022 - 23:02

Until 1948 it was usual for the Alfa team to decide their 'favourite' winner of a race in advance. Was it the same in 1950 or was there 'free racing' among the drivers?

This is something I had heard about as well. In the 1946 Turin Grand Prix, apparently Carlo Felice Trossi was nominated winner and Giuseppe Farina refused to play by these rules, ultimately spinning out while trying to pass Achille Varzi, and this played a part in his initial parting with the team before the return in 1950. I too was wondering if this was still how the team operated in 1950.



#8 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 20 December 2022 - 01:01

For reasons already stated, race results, positions held during the race, and fastest laps can be mispleading due to each driver racing to the team's or his own personal race strategy.

 

Add to this the fact that clearly the 158 (and the 159 in 1951) proved unreliable when pressed hard. This is borne out with Fagioli's results during 1950. Not one mechanical retirement. His only dnf was by being involved in the Monaco 1st lap crash.

 

So I am left to consider qualifying results, where none of the above factors show should play a part in comparing one drivers speed to another.

 

Over the season Fangio's total qualifying time was 1289.4 seconds compared to Farina's total of 1296.0.

 

Fangio gained four pole positions to Farina's one (and that by only 0.4 secs). They were equal at Spa but timing was only to the nearest second (not to the tenth).

 

So these are interesting facts, but whether they provide a definitive answer to F1Frog's question I will leave to others to decide.

 

Steve


Edited by Porsche718, 20 December 2022 - 01:02.


#9 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,943 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 20 December 2022 - 10:34

Does a conclusion really matter...  ?  Both were drivers of immense achievement.  But in period Fangio was by some distance the more popular and - from a team management perspective - by far the more 'user friendly'...

 

DCN



#10 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,730 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 20 December 2022 - 22:58

That was Reims in 1951, Fagioli's only race of that season and the final one of his career.


It was his final F1 race (I guess) but it wasn't his final race of his career as he finished 3rd in the 1952 Mille Miglia in a Lancia.

#11 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,203 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 24 December 2022 - 22:20

"Qualifying" times were meaningless in the fifties. In fact, they did not "qualify" at all, they merely practiced. "The past is a different country...", and so on.



#12 cpbell

cpbell
  • Member

  • 6,998 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 25 December 2022 - 22:41

There was some discussion in the Raymond Mays/Peter Roberts BRM book comparing the two at Albi...

 

Something about Fangio being more consistently accurate, if I recall.

I recall Sir Stirling comparing Fangio and Ascari similarly.



#13 Nick Planas

Nick Planas
  • Member

  • 383 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 25 December 2022 - 23:30

"Qualifying" times were meaningless in the fifties. In fact, they did not "qualify" at all, they merely practiced. "The past is a different country...", and so on.

In a similar vein, it always irks me when modern day writers talk about Driver X gaining a podium in the 1957 Whatever GP. No-one really talked about 'podiums' then.



#14 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 82,318 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 26 December 2022 - 01:07

I disagree that times were meaningless...

 

Even if they weren't qualifying times, it was a chance to push the car and find its limits, to set the opposition on edge and to show your team mate you had the legs on him.



#15 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 26 December 2022 - 02:11

"Qualifying" times were meaningless in the fifties. In fact, they did not "qualify" at all, they merely practiced. "The past is a different country...", and so on.

 

I may only be a lowly old (very) Formula Vee driver, but I'm yet to meet a race driver who didn't want to be at the top end of a qualifying (practice or whatever) session. It is the very first mental step in a race weekend at any level. Both for yourself and your opposition.

 

Having said that, I acknowledge that in current F1 there are definitely "games" played during P1 and P2 with many teams not wanting to show their hand too early. And kudos to the drivers to be able to show that restraint.

 

But when qualy come ... all bets are off.



#16 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,570 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 December 2022 - 08:45

I disagree that times were meaningless...

 

Even if they weren't qualifying times, it was a chance to push the car and find its limits, to set the opposition on edge and to show your team mate you had the legs on him.

Fangio was third on the grid for the 1950 British Grand Prix. He was quoted in My Racing Life: "The car was going really well but a likely as not I was being over-careful during the practice laps.  In those days we didn't drive the cars too hard.  There was such thing as a "practice" car.  The car you qualified in was the car you drove in the race, and to qualify you had to drive a minimum of five laps, which explains why we didn't drive them hard unnecessarily."

 

He was credited with the same time as Fagioli, 2/10 behind Farina.  With the timing used at Silverstone in those days, that was as close as you could get.

 

The past was a different country.


Edited by Roger Clark, 27 December 2022 - 08:46.


#17 F1Frog

F1Frog
  • Member

  • 990 posts
  • Joined: August 21

Posted 27 December 2022 - 09:28

"Qualifying" times were meaningless in the fifties. In fact, they did not "qualify" at all, they merely practiced. "The past is a different country...", and so on.

That's very interesting. When would you say this changed?



#18 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,759 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 27 December 2022 - 17:12

That's very interesting. When would you say this changed?

Like all these things it changed by stages.  



#19 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 28 December 2022 - 02:50

That's very interesting. When would you say this changed?

 

Everything was diffirent THEN. Formula One itself did not exist before 1981. And there were more than 6 races in 1950 where Alfa Romeo was dominant. Formula One history is myth, it exists only for major sales only. The reality was different and much more complicated. But most of fans will never accept complications, so Formula One myth exists only to keep them loyal and spending their money. If you want to learn real history just forget what modern Formula One history books tell you and read contemporary publications.


Edited by Kvadrat, 28 December 2022 - 02:50.


Advertisement

#20 Nick Planas

Nick Planas
  • Member

  • 383 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 28 December 2022 - 10:30

Everything was diffirent THEN. Formula One itself did not exist before 1981. And there were more than 6 races in 1950 where Alfa Romeo was dominant. Formula One history is myth, it exists only for major sales only. The reality was different and much more complicated. But most of fans will never accept complications, so Formula One myth exists only to keep them loyal and spending their money. If you want to learn real history just forget what modern Formula One history books tell you and read contemporary publications.

Scratching my head wondering what cars I was watching in the '60s and '70s. I swear we called them Formula 1 cars but I must be going senile...



#21 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,971 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2022 - 12:17

Scratching my head wondering what cars I was watching in the '60s and '70s. I swear we called them Formula 1 cars but I must be going senile...

As Kvadrat wrote, the real truth is much more complex than that. For example just these days Robert Dick has pointed me towards the official regulations for the 1951 "Grand Prix d´Europe".

https://gallica.bnf....b/f12.item.zoom

I bet you don´t find the term "Formule 1" inside that. Instead the wording is still "vehicules de la catégorie Course répondant aux conditions de la 'Formule Internationale de Course" établie par la Commission Sportive Internationale pour les années 1948-1953", which is how the official Grand Prix Formulae were named since probably the 1920ies or perhaps even before. The term "Formula 1" was only a 'popular expression' to make clear the difference between the 'original' Grand Prix formula and the second one which had been introduced in 1948.

Whether an since when the term 'Formula 1' has been officially in use before 1981 we still have to find out...


Edited by uechtel, 28 December 2022 - 12:21.


#22 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 43,431 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2022 - 12:42

Really, it just evolved. When the CSI announced their first official extension to the International Formula/Formule Internationale they apparently didn't even bother naming it. So some journalists decided to call them Formula A and Formula B, some called them Formula 1 and Formula 2, some called them Formula One and Formula Two and some even used Roman numerals instead - Formula I and Formula II. And then when the FIA adopted the existing 500cc rules as well as a third one they added Formula C, Formula 3, Formula Three or Formula III ...

 

It's caused confusion ever since, with Anthony Pritchard perhaps having been particularly guilty of muddying the waters.

 

But as uechtel says, there was probably never a point where anyone sat down and made a definite decision on the exact name. At least until Bernie got his hands on the rights anyway! So we're now at the point where

 

The F1 logos, F1 FORMULA 1 logos, F1 FIA FORMULA 1 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP logo, FORMULA 1, FORMULA ONE, F1, FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, GRAND PRIX, F1 GRAND PRIX, FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX and related marks are trademarks of Formula One Licensing BV, a Formula 1 company.

Source: https://www.formula1...al-notices.html

 

To be honest I'm unclear how they can have trademarked the words 'grand prix' on their own, given that there are lots of other motor sport events which still use that as part of their name, but maybe it's specified in the small print. :well:



#23 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,971 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 28 December 2022 - 13:14


 

To be honest I'm unclear how they can have trademarked the words 'grand prix' on their own, given that there are lots of other motor sport events which still use that as part of their name, but maybe it's specified in the small print. :well:

Not only in motorsport, but also horse racing, bicycle racing, skiing, fencing, judo...



#24 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 82,318 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 28 December 2022 - 14:25

Is there anyone using this forum who took note of Grand Prix motor racing in 1965 who didn't know the cars as 'Formula 1 cars'...

 

Or know the formula to which they were built as 'Formula 1'?

 

Deep discussion about the name of the formula has nothing to do with the original questions, nor the resultant discussion about changes in qualifying.



#25 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,570 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 28 December 2022 - 17:31

Is there anyone using this forum who took note of Grand Prix motor racing in 1965 who didn't know the cars as 'Formula 1 cars'...

 

Or know the formula to which they were built as 'Formula 1'?

 

Deep discussion about the name of the formula has nothing to do with the original questions, nor the resultant discussion about changes in qualifying.

 

 

That's very interesting. When would you say this changed?

By 1954, Fangio always wanted pole position, if only to establish a psychological advantage.  The same was true of Ascari in 52-53.  The 50-51 Alfas were very highly stressed so it's probable that the drivers wouldn't drive any faster than they had to but I think that was the exception rather than the rule.

 

As regards the diversion, the terms Formula 1 and 2 were well established in this country by 1950, and probably earlier.



#26 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 6,412 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 28 December 2022 - 20:39

 

As regards the diversion, the terms Formula 1 and 2 were well established in this country by 1950, and probably earlier.

Just to confirm this, here's a quote from Autosport Vol 1 No. 1, 25th August 1950, page 2, the first ever item in Pit and Paddock: "The general view is that it was disgraceful to include such a narrow stretch of road in a Formula 1 race..." (Villoresi's accident at Geneva).



#27 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 02:44

Scratching my head wondering what cars I was watching in the '60s and '70s. I swear we called them Formula 1 cars but I must be going senile...

 

There's huge difference between Formula 1 racing class and Formula One series. 99% of Formula One/Formula 1 mentions in historical context mean series which did not exist before 1981. This thread starter F1Frog also means strictly fictional 1950 series called Formula One which did not exist.



#28 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 02:46

Just to confirm this, here's a quote from Autosport Vol 1 No. 1, 25th August 1950, page 2, the first ever item in Pit and Paddock: "The general view is that it was disgraceful to include such a narrow stretch of road in a Formula 1 race..." (Villoresi's accident at Geneva).

 

It's the same. They meant Formula 1 racing class in 1950, F1Frog and many others mean non-existant Formula One series nowdays.



#29 opplock

opplock
  • Member

  • 1,037 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 December 2022 - 12:12

There's huge difference between Formula 1 racing class and Formula One series. 99% of Formula One/Formula 1 mentions in historical context mean series which did not exist before 1981. 

 

The huge difference presumably is that until 1981 no-one was either smart or mercenary enough to trademark the term.

 

"The FIA's new Drivers' World Championship was introduced this season, the title decided upon results of essentially Formula 1 Grandes Epreuves, plus - in the CSI's infinite wisdom - the American Indianapolis 500 Miles speedway race." Autocourse History of the Grand Prix car 1945-65. Author DCN. 

 

If its good enough for DCN its good enough for me. 



#30 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 43,431 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 13:57

The huge difference presumably is that until 1981 no-one was either smart or mercenary enough to trademark the term.

Nicely done. If you hadn't included 'smart' you might have been hearing from Mr E's lawyers!  ;) Although I suppose he might even view 'mercenary' as a compliment.

 

"The FIA's new Drivers' World Championship was introduced this season, the title decided upon results of essentially Formula 1 Grandes Epreuves, plus - in the CSI's infinite wisdom - the American Indianapolis 500 Miles speedway race." Autocourse History of the Grand Prix car 1945-65. Author DCN. 

 

If its good enough for DCN its good enough for me. 

The 500 had always been a Grande Epreuve, going back to the 1920s, when it had been part of the original short-lived World Championship. Obviously it couldn't have been part of a European Championship in the 1930s, but I guess that adding it to the World Championship was partly to justify the name - as well as to placate the AAA - given that all the other races before 1958 were in Europe. As Doug's text implies, the original rules for the FIA's World Championship didn't actually specify in so many words that the races had to be for cars conforming to a particular formula - and at least in theory unblown cars eligible for Indianapolis could have raced in European Formula 1 races until the end of 1953. Any car built to the 1947-53 Formula 1 could theoretically have raced at Indy too, although probably with a few modifications.

 

Incidentally, the FIM's World Championship, established in 1949, didn't race outside Europe until 1961 ...
 



#31 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,203 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 December 2022 - 14:01

Oh, they raced twice in Britain every year...

 

 

 ;)  :p



#32 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 7,203 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 December 2022 - 14:14



That's very interesting. When would you say this changed?

 

As some have already remarked, it changed gradually over time. I think Roger is correct in that Fangio was one of the first who placed importance on starting from pole position, others tended not to care that much, even as late as the eighties, like e.g. Niki Lauda (although it has to be said that before his 1976 accident he practiced a decidedly different approach!) or Alain Prost. Maybe even Michael Schumacher, from looking at his statistics, though I can't really say because I didn't follow the sport that closely at the time.



#33 opplock

opplock
  • Member

  • 1,037 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 December 2022 - 14:14

Nicely done. If you hadn't included 'smart' you might have been hearing from Mr E's lawyers!  ;) Although I suppose he might even view 'mercenary' as a compliment.

 

 

 

Especially if he found out that I was in Casino Square grandstand as he emerged from Hotel de Paris before Thursday am practice in 1983. The bloke who yelled "Oi Bernie, think how many TV cameras you could get in this grandstand" was loudly cheered by all present. 


Edited by opplock, 29 December 2022 - 14:16.


#34 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 43,431 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 14:17

Oh, they raced twice in Britain every year...

 

 

 ;)  :p

FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF :p



#35 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 43,431 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 14:20

 

As some have already remarked, it changed gradually over time. I think Roger is correct in that Fangio was one of the first who placed importance on starting from pole position, others tended not to care that much, even as late as the eighties, like e.g. Niki Lauda (although it has to be said that before his 1976 accident he practiced a decidedly different approach!) or Alain Prost. Maybe even Michael Schumacher, from looking at his statistics, though I can't really say because I didn't follow the sport that closely at the time.

Brands Hatch putting up 100 bottles of champers for pole might have been a bit of an incentive though.



#36 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,971 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 29 December 2022 - 15:08

The huge difference presumably is that until 1981 no-one was either smart or mercenary enough to trademark the term.

 

"The FIA's new Drivers' World Championship was introduced this season, the title decided upon results of essentially Formula 1 Grandes Epreuves, plus - in the CSI's infinite wisdom - the American Indianapolis 500 Miles speedway race." Autocourse History of the Grand Prix car 1945-65. Author DCN. 

 

If its good enough for DCN its good enough for me. 

 

Interestingly the same DCN chose 1945 (and not 1950) as starting point for the book. And also, this being a 'popular' work he may have not been too precise on this at the time, for in 1952 and 1953 not a single "Formula 1" race counted towards the World Championship. As has been written before in this thread, "Formula 1" was a popular - yet inofficial - expression for a set of technical and sporting rules, for which the FIA did not care to offer a useful naming. The FIA could decide, that a sub-set of 'officially acknowledged' events ran according to this formula counted for the World Championship, but possibly also other ones if that seemed to suit them better. And also the race organizers were free to choose it as a whole, partly (=only the technical regulations), add further rules or decide for something completely different. So compare this against today...



#37 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,943 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 29 December 2022 - 20:59

Merely entitling that book the 'Autocourse History of the Grand Prix car 1945-65' was due to the conscious thought that what amounted to significant Grand Prix racing in 1946-47 should not be described as "Formula 1" (or "One"), and that pinnacle-level Grand Prix racing 1952-53 was conducted to Formula 2 regulations, and not Formula 1.  Furthermore the book sought to trace the stabilisation of significant "open-wheeler" Grand Prix racing 1945-49 before the FIA's Drivers World Championship was launched in 1950 - in part as a catch-up measure to match the previous year's introduction of the FIM World Championship.

 

Twenty-plus years ago TNF trawled this matter quite thoroughly, with Vitesse2 posting this useful overview of interesting and relevant references - which I hope he won't mind my reproducing here.  These are his words, not mine:

 

"This is a collection of extracts from books and journals which we have gathered ("we" being Hans, Marc, Alessandro, Tony Kaye, Frank (FEV) and myself). As you will see, we have moved on significantly since the thread ended ... Perhaps we can impose on a few of you to consult your own libraries and tell us what you find? Especially interesting would be anything from original magazine sources, from any country.

Red text is considered dubious or is just plain wrong! Names in brackets are contributors, and there are a few appended comments - the original quotes are, I hope, obvious.

1945 [Alan Henry: Autocourse 50 Years of World Championship Grand Prix Motor Racing, 2000, pg.27] Before the war, a change in Formula A regulations –effectively F1- had been penciled in for 1941, These rules would call for 4.5-litre unsupercharged or 1.5-litre supercharged engines, and in 1945 the newly titled Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA) quickly adopted these regulations for those who felt able to take part. Red text makes a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of June 22, 1946. (Alessandro Silva)

1946 Feb ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, 1948, No. 2, pg. 16] …1938-1946..In the year 1938 a new formula was introduced….. Theoretically, this formula was in place since it was not terminated by decision of the appropriate authority until February 28, 1946, the day of the first postwar meeting of the AIACR. (Hans Etzrodt)

1946 Feb [Laurence Pomeroy: The Grand Prix Car, Vol. Two, 1949, 1954, pg. 24] When Formula I was agreed at a meeting of the Federatiom Internationale de l’Automobile on February 28th, 1946, it was intended that it should cover the years 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951. In October, 1951, the F.I.A. decided to extend the life of Formula I up to the end of December, 1953, that is to say, by a further two years. …..(Hans Etzrodt)

1946 Mar ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [The Motor, March 27, 1946, p161] ... Now, for 1947 and 1948 there is a nice new Formula, which turns out to be what we had all hoped - up to 1500cc supercharged and up to 3-litres un-supercharged.  
So, when was the formula changed back?? And why?? And by whom?? (Richard Armstrong)

1946 May ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, May 1946, p105] New Formula  
The AIACR has met again and provisionally decided on a formula for the classic races of 1947-51 with which few people will wish to quibble. No impositions will exist, beyond a capacity limit of 1.5 litres for supercharged engines and 3 litres for un-supercharged engines. Special fuel is to be permitted. This is the picture at present and it looks very satisfactory. But confirmation is to follow, at another AIACR meeting next month.. A change seems unlikely, however (Richard Armstrong)

1946 Jun ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [L’equipe, June 22, 1946] CSI a fixé hier à Paris la formule internationale. CSI has fixed yesterday (June 21, 1946) in Paris the international formula. 1.5 L s/c & 4.5 u/s. free fuel. No other provisions except: two rearview mirrors and two seats maximum. (Alessandro Silva)

1946 [Adriano Cimarosti: The Complete history of Grand Prix Motor Racing, 1986, pg. 130] At the end of 1946 the newly formed Fédération Internationael de l’Automobile decided to establish new rules for Grand Prix racing, and for the first time the term “Formula One” was applied. The rules laid down maximum capacities of 1500cc for supercharged engines and 4500cc for unsupercharged engines, which represented a change in the ratio between supercharged and unsupercharged engines from 1:1.5 (or 3 litres to 4.5 litres) which had existed since 1938, 10 1:3. (Hans Etzrodt)

1946 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, 1961, pg.86] 1946 No Formula was announced by the re-titled Federation Internationale de L'Automobile (FIA) and events were run for whatever cars existed, mostly 1500cc and 4½ litres un-supercharged. (Richard Armstrong)

1947 [Henri Cohin L’Historique de la Course Automobile, 1894-1976 Editions Fanauto, 1977, page 289] A new formula applicable from 1947 until the end of 1953 is installed: the Formula1 will be limited to 4500cc for unsupercharged cars or 1500cc for supercharged. (Frank Verplanken)

1947 Oct [Doug Nye: Auto Course History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65, 1993, pg. 33] On 23 October 1947, the doors of the Grand Palais in the Champs Elysées, Paris, opened on the second post-war Salon de l’Automobile exhibition.…. …. During the Salon the FIA’s sporting commission met to review motor racing’s future. They reached several important decisions.
Above all they confirmed that the existing fait accompli of 1.5 litres supercharged and 4.5 litres unsupercharged classes should apply for Grand Prix racing ostensibly until the end of 1953, six more full seasons. However, from 1 January 1948 any type of fuel would be permitted in place of the alcohol-only restrictions applied perforce since the resumption of serious competition in 1946. In addition, the meeting agreed to adopt a new Voiturette Formula for unsupercharged cars of no more than 2000 cc capacity and supercharged cars of no more than 500 cc.
To differentiate these two International single-seater Formulae, the Grand Prix class was referred to initially as Formula ‘A’, the Voiturette class as Formula ‘B’. To us and to the public at large they were to become better known, respectively, as ‘Formula 1’ and ‘Formula 2”. (Hans Etzrodt)

1947 Nov ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, 1947, No. 11, pg. 16] …..The meeting of the FIA brought a sensation in its decisions by the sporting commission. ...As of January 1, 1948, a second racing formula will take effect….. cars with compressor up to 500 ccm, cars without compressor up to 2000 ccm; minimum distance 200 km. (Hans Etz)

1947 Dec ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport December 1947 p376]  Formula Racing  
It seems that the existing Formula will govern International racing until 1953, with the alteration that from next year cars can be run on any fuel the entrant desires to use. For new boys, this means up to 1.5 litres supercharged, and up to 4.5 litres unblown. A most interesting voiturette Formula is also to be put into operation, confining small-car races to blown cars up to 500cc, and unblown cars up to 2 litres. This is a most intriguing development, if a nasty swipe to purveyors of British supercharged eleven-hundreds, such as the K3 MG.  
Both before and after WW2, Motor Sport refer exclusively to "Formula racing" and "Formula cars" - I saw no references to Formula A or B (or Formula 1 or 2) up to the end of 1948. The first reference to the FIA (rather than the AIACR), which I have found is in March 1948. (Richard Armstrong)

1947 [G.N. Georgano – Editor –: The Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport, 1971, Dennis Jenkinson: pg.19]  In 1947 the A.I.A.C.R. was reconstituted and renamed Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile or FIA for short, and the international subcommittee or Commission Sportive Internationale (CSI) controlled the racing rules and drew up the various classes of racing to be held at international level. Red text is a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of July, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)
The principal interest of the CSI was Grand Prix racing, regarded as the premier category, and sports car racing and other events were left to national clubs, but in 1947 it was apparently that the sport was growing rapidly and something more than grand Prix racing was going to be needed internationally. Racing was therefore divided into groups or formulas.  
Grand Prix category was known as Formula 1, the Voiturette category became Formula 2 and 500 cc racing in Great Britain was called Formula 3. Red text: there was no Formula 1 yet in 1947 (Hans Etzrodt).

1947 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, 1961, pg.88] 1947  The CSI of the FIA announced the new Grand Prix regulations for the period 1948-1953, intended to include the pre-war cars. Two Formulae were drawn up - Formula I, for supercharged cars with a cylinder volume of up to 1,500 cc, and un-supercharged up to 4½-litres, which, it was thought, would equalize the performances that had been so widely separated under the pre-war rules of 3-litres with supercharger and 4½-litres un-supercharged. There were no limitations as to weight, fuel or type of body, apart from the obligation to fit two full-sized rear mirrors. Red text makes a wrong statement, compared to L’equipe of June 22, 1946. (Alessandro Silva, Nov. 1, 2001)

1947 [Giuseppe Guzzardi & Enzo Rizzo: The Century of MOTOR RACING, pg. 66, 1999] A number of early post-was events are worthy of particular mention including the formation of the FIA ( Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile), still responsible for all international motor racing events of European origins. The FIA took it upon itself to recognize the regulations for GP type racing within the context of a technological panorama in need of reconstruction and generally restricted economic resources. Thus was Formula 1 born in 1947 with its initial format dictated by the availability of cars developed before the war… (Hans Etzrodt)

1947 [David Hodges: A-Z of Formula Racing Cars, 1990, pg. 272]  
When racing picked up after the Second World War grids were made up of late-1930s cars, and formule libre rules were applied so that the organizers of events could at least get fields together. By 1947, however, there was sufficient confidence for the Formula A that had been framed for 1941 to be promulgated as Formula 1. (Richard Armstrong)

1948 Feb ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, February 1948, pg. 39] The FIA surprised a lot of people by announcing an additional Formula for 1948 Grand Prix racing..........FormulaI, and Formula II being for super-charged cars up to 500cc and unsupercharged cars up to 2000cc." Motorsport. The first I came across was in the February issue p.39. It would appear from this that FIA used the terms F I and F II. There is no mention of either F 1 or F 2, but there are other references to F I and F II in the same article. The next reference I found was not until the June edition when the GP de Roussillon was described as "for Formula II cars....". (Tony Kaye).


1948 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Speed Age 1948 July, p 21] ".....the Grand Prix of Pau......open to the Formula I cars....." The writer of this was none other than Count Lurani..... (Tony Kaye).

1948 Nov ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Motor Sport, November 1948, pg. 467] Despite all the races and race reports in the magazine during the summer months, the next reference I found was not until the November edition (p.467). Circuit of Florence. "This Formula B race was won by......" Now that's a surprise, F B not F II!
And that's it for the whole of 1948. But it really isn't so surprising that there should be so few references to the Formula as variously A, B, 1, 2, I or II. They simply referred to the events as Grands Prix or the cars as Grand Prix cars. (Tony Kaye).

1948 [D. S. Jenkinson: Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1949, p 105, published 1948] Despite its title, Denis Jenkinson's book "Motor Sport Racing Car Review 1949" was written in 1948 and is about the 1948 season. Throughout he refers to Formula A and Formula B. For instance on page 105 he states: As this small car racing was proving so popular, the International governing body of motor racing, the F.I.A., formerly the A.I.A.C.R., drew up two Formulae for International racing for 1948.  Formula A was for the existing Grand Prix cars and Formula B for the small cars... My take on this subject is that in the very early days the formulae were usually referred to by letter or by Roman numeral and hardly ever as F 1 and F 2. (Tony Kaye).  

1948 [John Eason Gibson: Motor Racing 1947, page 89, published 1949] The following are the current regulations governing Racing Cars including the 1948-1953 International formulae and Sports Cars as defined in the International Sporting Code.
RACING CARS
Formula 1, (F.I. 1)………….
Formula 2, (F.I. 2)………….
This was published in 1949 when the term Formula 1 became more popular (Hans Etzrodt).

1948 [Rex Hayes: The Vanishing Litres, 1957, pg. 147] In 1948 two Grand Prix  Formulae were accepted for the following year. The major formula, which henceforward was to be known as Formula 1 (sometimes A), was as before, namely, 1,500 c.c. supercharged or 4.5 litres unsupercharged. The upgrading of what was formerly the Voiturette class and in the future to be known as Formula 2 (sometimes B) was for cars of 2 litres unsupercharged or 500 c.c. supercharged. ……(Richard Armstrong)

1948 [Anthony Pritchard: A Century of GRAND PRIX Motor Racing, 1998 compiled by A. Pritchard, pg. 73] 1946-48 Motor racing resumed after the war with a Formula Libre (’free formula’) race held in the Bois de Boulogne in Paris. Initially the official formula was a continuation of the pre-war Formula A for cars of 3 litres supercharged and 4.5 litres unsupercharged. There was a minimum race distance of 500 kilometers (311 miles). In reality the races were contested by a rather mixed bag of pre-war Voiturettes (the 1500 cc supercharged equivalent of modern Formula 2), 3-to 4.5-litre unsupercharged cars (French Delage, Delahaye and Talbot) and the old 8C-308 3-litre supercharged Alfa Romeo. From 1947 there was a new formula, soon to be called Formula 1, but originally again known as Formula A, for cars of 1500 cc supercharged and 4500 cc unsupercharged. The minimum race distance remained unchanged. “Pre-war Formula A” was never heard before! (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 [Pablo Gimeno Valledor: The International Penya Rhin Grand Prix, 1997, page 152]  
In 1948 the Formula A and the Formula B were defined. In many fine books they mistakenly talked about Formula 1 and Formula 2, terms which were not used until 1950….. 
The subsequent F1 and F2 of 1950, which were in force until 1953, were exactly the same as the Formula A and B, only the name changed…… (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 [Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walkerley: The Motor Year Book 1949, p 37, 53, published April 1949] Racing Results of 1948  Formula B Races. Term used instead of Formula 2, (Hans Etzrodt)
International Sporting Calendar for 1949 The suffix “A” or “B” in brackets indicates that the event concerned is to be run under the International Grand Prix Formula A (1½-litres supercharged, 4½-litres unsupercharged) or Formula B (500 c.c. supercharged, 2-litres unsupercharged). (Hans Etzrodt)

1948 Karl Ludvigsen: Classic Grand Prix Cars, 2000, pg. 109] …..The choice of the CSI was indeed a formula for Grand Prix cars of 1½ litres supercharged and 4½ normally aspirated. Although it wasn’t officially in effect until 1948, the new formula was adopted earlier by the organizers of major Grand Prix events.
At the time consideration was given to a new secondary or Voiturette formula. This was eventually settled at 2 litres unblown. Initially, the two categories were distinguished as Formula A and B, but the usage of Formulas 1 and 2 was soon adopted. Thus by the end of the forties the term ‘Formula 1’ for Grand Prix racing was both established and accepted. (Hans Etzrodt)

1949 Jul ***ORIGINAL SOURCE [Das Auto, July 1949, No. 16, No. 17, No. 18] In issue #16, racing report of Reims, July 1949, both, Formel 1 and Formel 2 is written. Issue #17 writes about the Bari race Formel 2. In the report of issue #18, pg. 20, about the Lausanne race in August 1949, written by Paul Pietsch, it is typed Formel I and II instead of 1 and 2. (Hans Etzrodt)

1949 [Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walkerley: The Motor Year Book 1950, p 179, published March 1950] Racing Results of 1949  
Formula A.  Formula A events admit cars up to 1,500 c.c. supercharged and up to 4½-litres unsupercharged.
Formula B Racing.  Formula B admits cars up to 500 c.c. supercharged and 2 litres unsupercharged. (Hans Etz.)

1949 [David Venables: First Among Champions: The Alfa Romeo Grand Prix Cars, 2000, pg. 250] [regarding Brivio] ..and may be regarded as the father of the World Championship, as he made the initial proposal to the FIA in 1949. I had already seen this story (I forgot where) to the effect that Lurani and Brivio, brotherly friends, had discussed the matter between them and Lurani, who was on the FIM (Motorcycle Federation) board, had it passed first, in 1948. If confirmed, it would make Brivio one of the outstanding figures in motoring history! (Alessandro Silva)

1950 [Rodney Walkerley: Motor Racing, Facts & Figures, pg. 98] 1950 A new circuit, especially constructed, was opened in a natural amphitheatre at Brands Hatch, 20 miles south-east of London, for 500 c.c. racing. This branch of the sport, established in Britain soon after the war as a form of inexpensive racing, was now at a stage, which warranted its definition by the F.I.A. as an International Formula III. …
The International Calendar was now overcrowded with events for Formula I, II and III, and ... (Hans Etzrodt)

FIA Under the title F1 Q & A, I (Hans.E.) found the following information (supplied by FIA) at the Forix site:
History QUESTION: How far back does Formula One go? 
ANSWER: …Following the introduction of the first "formula" in 1904 by the FIA (which restricted maximum weight), categories were created for the smaller cars, but the name "FormulaOne" did not appear until 1948. The first Formula One race was at Pau on 29 March 1948 and was won by a Maserati. The FIA Formula One World Championship was created in 1950, and the first Formula One World Championship race was the British Grand Prix, at Silverstone on 13 May 1950. (Hans Etzrodt)"

 

DCN 



#38 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,568 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 31 December 2022 - 17:20

...

FIA Under the title F1 Q & A, I (Hans.E.) found the following information (supplied by FIA) at the Forix site:
History QUESTION: How far back does Formula One go? 
ANSWER: …Following the introduction of the first "formula" in 1904 by the FIA (which restricted maximum weight), categories were created for the smaller cars, but the name "FormulaOne" did not appear until 1948. The first Formula One race was at Pau on 29 March 1948 and was won by a Maserati. The FIA Formula One World Championship was created in 1950, and the first Formula One World Championship race was the British Grand Prix, at Silverstone on 13 May 1950. (Hans Etzrodt)"

 

DCN 

 

The FIA may have supplied this information but it comes with some spin on it.  In 1950 it was the Drivers World Championship, and Formula 1 was just the formula used by the majority of the races that counted towards it, all but one of which were Grands Prix.  Over time, the concepts of Grand Prix racing, F1 and the World Championship effectively fused together, and that was formalised when the FIA Formula OneTM World Championship began in 1982.  The FIA and other stakeholders have then tried to apply the concepts of the post-1982 F1 to the pre-82 era, with varying degrees of success.  

 

I always felt the 1982 change was primarily about the commercial exploitation of this top layer of the sport, which has been achieved with remarkable success.  

 

The most despicable of the changes is of course the pronunciation of the plural of Grand Prix as "Gran Preese".  I can cope with most things, but I have my limits.  



#39 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,591 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 14 January 2023 - 16:35

...The FIA and other stakeholders have then tried to apply the concepts of the post-1982 F1 to the pre-82 era, with varying degrees of success.  

 

I always felt the 1982 change was primarily about the commercial exploitation of this top layer of the sport, which has been achieved with remarkable success...

My recollections of the FISA/FOCA war are ferocity and frequency of change. One day something had been agreed and the next some teams would not be attending a race. If you divide news reports into time segments -- based on publishing dates perhaps -- you can create a history, pre-82 and post-82 F1. Races were cancelled or disrupted, and technical rules were handled arbitrarily. Somehow amidst the FISA/FOCA war, F1/GP teams conducted a few world championships, the results of none being challenged.

 

Another way of looking at those seasons is that commercial exploitation of the sport already predominated politics, and that the FISA/FOCA war was a phony. All sides (FISA, FOCA, manufacturers) had a few legitimate grumbles, but ultimately F1 was a great TV sport, and Bernie Ecclestone had wrapped up TV rights. Manufacturers really wanted to be part of it.

 

With a few hiccoughs, F1/GP racing continued through the FISA/FOCA war. There may be legal distinctions between pre-82 and post-82 F1, but I consider the sporting aspect of F1 to be continuous from 1950.



Advertisement

#40 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 3,639 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 14 January 2023 - 17:22

the FIA Formula OneTM World Championship began in 1982.  The FIA and other stakeholders have then tried to apply the concepts of the post-1982 F1 to the pre-82 era, with varying degrees of success.  

 

I always felt the 1982 change [...].  

:confused:  IMHO it was 1981, not 1982.



#41 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 16 January 2023 - 02:55

:confused:  IMHO it was 1981, not 1982.

 

Formula One series was created in 1980 to start from 1981, but it was created by FIA not for getting money out of it unlike Bernie whose actions from 1972 when he entered FOCA were aimed absolutely at getting as much money as possible. Creartion of Formula One series by Balestre meant all Ecclestone's efforts were in vain. He spent 1981 in finding solution which was found in form of Concorde Agreement which finally settled peace in 1982.

 

So we have two important dates: beginning of Formula One series in 1981 and signing the Concorde Agreement in 1982. Both event created what we now know as Formula One. 


Edited by Kvadrat, 16 January 2023 - 02:58.


#42 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 16 January 2023 - 02:58

I consider the sporting aspect of F1 to be continuous from 1950.

 

There was no F1 series in 1950. If you want to consider sporting aspects you should consider that there was Grand Prix racing, not F1. And it was continuous from much earlier times, at least 1922-23. Some people consider 1906, 1903 or even 1895.



#43 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 6,412 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 16 January 2023 - 09:35

So this discussion, about how many angels can balance on the head of a pin, ends by finding Bernie Ecclestone?



#44 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,591 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 16 January 2023 - 10:57

There was no F1 series in 1950. If you want to consider sporting aspects you should consider that there was Grand Prix racing, not F1. And it was continuous from much earlier times, at least 1922-23. Some people consider 1906, 1903 or even 1895.

That must have come as a surprise to Nino Farina and Alfa Romeo...

 

Although some races had been conducted to the post-WWII regulations, the majority of entries were  pre-war voiturettes. From 1950 onwards, the Alfa Romeo and Maserati factories had significantly reworked their cars and new ones specifically for F1 were built by Ferrari, BRM, Talbot-Lago, Gordini, Alta and others. There was a world championship for drivers, one with rules which were relatively straightforward. I'd say those factors make 1950 a suitable break point from pre-war GP racing



#45 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,759 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 16 January 2023 - 14:32

My Take: 
When the "voiturette Formula was introduced, the International Formula became Formula A or 1 or I, and the secondary formula became Formula B, or 2 or II.  Then when the 500cc formula became an international formula it was named Formula 3 or occasional Formula III but never Formula C.  The different terms were used indiscriminately sometime two forms being used in the same document.  The formula was for cars, not races or race series.

The Drivers' World Championship of 1950 et seq was contested over a series of races not for a nominated type of car.  The individual race regulations defined eligibility.

As Don Capps has frequently pointed out, there was a sea change in 1980.  The old World Drivers' Championship was rescinded and replaced by the FIA Formula 1 World Championship which was owned by the FIA from 1981.  Technically, there were two separate championships.  This was a political move by the FIA President Jean Pierre Balestre in the ongoing power struggle with FOCA, the Formula One Constructors' Association, to unequivocally state who owned THE Championship and the Formula 1 regulations..
Bernie Ecclestone and the FIA trademarking (and copyrighting) "Formula 1" and associated titles came later.

It's described fully here: http://8w.forix.com/...n-timeline.html



#46 opplock

opplock
  • Member

  • 1,037 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 16 January 2023 - 16:09

Step forward all those brave enough to tell Alan Jones that he never won an F1 World Championship. 



#47 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 43,431 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 January 2023 - 17:15

That must have come as a surprise to Nino Farina and Alfa Romeo...

 

Although some races had been conducted to the post-WWII regulations, the majority of entries were  pre-war voiturettes. From 1950 onwards, the Alfa Romeo and Maserati factories had significantly reworked their cars and new ones specifically for F1 were built by Ferrari, BRM, Talbot-Lago, Gordini, Alta and others. There was a world championship for drivers, one with rules which were relatively straightforward. I'd say those factors make 1950 a suitable break point from pre-war GP racing

Although there had been races in the pre-WW2 era for cars of up to 1500cc the 1938-40 Formule Internationale, with its sliding scale of weights v engine capacity, was the first time the CSI had set out definite rules for them. To compete in a race run to those rules a car (of whatever engine capacity) had to comply to one basic bodywork width rule - it must measure at least 85cm wide and 25cm high at the cockpit. This was a rule carried over from the previous 1934-37 '750kg' formula, so in practice, almost all European racing cars had been built to that standard. The most notable exceptions - apart from the occasional 'special' like the Irish-built single-seat Adlers and conversions like Parnell's MG - of course being the 750cc Austins and the MG R-type Midget.

 

A separate series of 'Junior Grand Prix' races - and possibly even a second level European Championship - had been suggested at a meeting of the manufacturers in 1935, but had never reached the stage of being a formal proposal put before the CSI.

 

So, the point I wish to make is that, as of January 1st 1938, pre-1938 1500cc racing cars like ERAs and Maserati 4CMs were actually Grand Prix cars. They complied with the cockpit width rule and were within the set weight limits. Five entirely new 1500cc racing cars appeared in 1938 and 1939 - the ERA E-type, the Maserati 4CL, the Alfa Romeo 158, the Mercedes Benz W165 and Reg Parnell's Challenge (later renamed Challenger). A sixth, from Alta, was almost complete by the autumn of 1939. The ERA was originally designed to be (ultimately) powered by a 3-litre engine, whereas the others were specifically drafted as 1500cc cars, with an eye on what was confidently expected to be a new 1500cc Formule Internationale from January 1st 1941. But they were all at least 85cm wide at the cockpit, so it was obviously expected that this rule would again be carried over. Ironically, when the first post-war formula arrived, there was no restriction on bodywork width ...



#48 Kvadrat

Kvadrat
  • Member

  • 987 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 17 January 2023 - 02:15

That must have come as a surprise to Nino Farina and Alfa Romeo...

 

In 1950, Farina had no any idea about Formula One series because it did not exist. Farina participated in Grand Prix racing and he probably knew that new Grand Prix class was described in press as Formula 1. He definitely knew there was World Championship for Drivers but he did not enter it because it did not requre filling entry forms. He probably wanted to be World Champion but did not participate in the World Championship because it wasn't organized tournament. Everybody who wanted to be a World Champion only imagined that they were taking part because no one told them that they were accepted patricipants. Championship decision was formal and was taken at CSI's meeting at the end of the year. Everything was so much different than you can see now that you probably can't understand it with the first attempt. You need to read a lot of period publications to feel how things were happening those days.



#49 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,943 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 17 January 2023 - 08:26

Sorry...but am I alone in believing this lecturing is assuming absurd proportions...  

 

DCN



#50 Porsche718

Porsche718
  • Member

  • 906 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 17 January 2023 - 08:59

If I had time to waste, I would scroll through the TNF archives and total how many threads have been hijacked by this ongoing argument of "when was it called Formula One" ... or when was it called "World Drivers Championship" ... or which power bloc instigated the "F1 Championship".

 

Surely this has been done to death!

 

I'm sure F1Frog has given up on his quest for an interesting discussion on the merits of Fangio v Farina. 

 

OK. Got that off my chest. I'm better now.

 

HONEY ... WHERE ARE MY PILLS?


Edited by Porsche718, 17 January 2023 - 09:06.