79 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Of course, you know, or maybe you don’t, that modern F.1 drivers choose the number that they want on their car and keep it no matter which team they drive for. Max Verstappen, bless him, opted to change to number 1 upon winning the 2021 Championship. Good on him, I say.

 

I pine for the days when the entry for a Grand Prix were numbered consecutively, be it it all numbers or even numbers only, and the cars from one team were numbered in sequence. (I know there were exceptions, like B.R.M. in 1974 etc etc etc}

 

Coming, as I am, to the end of a season of slot races - 1952 to be exact - I have reached the Newcastle Journal Trophy at Charterhall.  This is a rare case of extremely unusual numbering.  The lowest number in the race was Peter Whitehead’s Alta with #10. Bobby Baird had #16 on his Ferrari with Stirling’s G-type E.R.A. at #25.  
 

This in itself is rather strange but after SCM the numbers are all over the place, eventually reaching the H.W.M. of Ian Stewart which was #116.  I doubt there is anyone left alive who might explain this peculiarity and I don’t expect a huge response from the membership, but I haven’t posted for a while…..

 

As a postscript to this, the entry included a certain Albert Wake in an H.W.M. about whom Juan Fangio once said ‘Who?’

 

[Sterzo]

One possibility is that the organisers allocated numbers to the entrants of all races, as they received them, rather than giving numbers in each race. Creaky memory suggests this sometimes used to happen at UK race meetings.

[Collombin]

It looks like Moss used 25, 26 and 27 in his three races that day so that makes sense. Coincidentally just yesterday I was reading about Bob Gerard's remarkable win in a Formule Libre race there that day.

[Glengavel]

This link has all the races taking part on the day:

 

https://charterhall....y.com/1952.html

 

Numbers allocated according to the date or time entries were received?

 

(edit - missed Sterzo's post above which says the same thing)

Edited by Glengavel, 28 December 2022 - 12:48.

[sabrejet]

Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.

 

But why '00'? It's not even a number!

[10kDA]

Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.

 

But why '00'? It's not even a number!

For years Ted Field and Danny Ongais ran "0" and/or "00" in IMSA.

[Barry Boor]

Wonderful.

 

TNF triumphs again.

 

I should have known….

 

Thanks to those who have given such great info.

[Mallory Dan]

I recall when football teams were numbered 1-11, Barry. Much more sensible

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by sabrejet
Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.
 
But why '00'? It's not even a number!

Folks on the other side of the world might be aware that Peter Brock raced for years with (generally) the number '05' on his car.

The genesis of this was that when he became a 'privateer' one of the things he took on was to promote alcohol-free driving, with his home state of Victoria adopting a blood-alcohol limit of 0.05%. Naturally this was abbreviated to '.05' and '05' was the number which adorned his car.

[AJCee]

Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.

But why '00'? It's not even a number!

Was it not to pay homage to Dick Dastardly’s Mean Machine? Or did the practice start before that?

[marksixman]

One possibility is that the organisers allocated numbers to the entrants of all races, as they received them, rather than giving numbers in each race. Creaky memory suggests this sometimes used to happen at UK race meetings.

You beat me to it Sterzo, and I am pretty sure you are correct, as I remember my Old Man (who was a very occasional and very amateur driver around that time) telling me that this had happened to him once, and he had asked at the time where the logic came from.

 

He thought it might have been based on expected lap times, as he had been given a VERY high number, but actually just a very late entrant !

[d j fox]

Damon Hill had “0” on his Williams in both in 1993 and 1994

[Barry Boor]

A further question then…..

How were the starting grids arranged?  One photo clearly shows four cars in a line but was it 4-3-4-3 or maybe 4-4-4-4 ?

[D28]

Damon Hill had “0” on his Williams in both in 1993 and 1994

Jody Schekter used 0 on his McLaren for the N American F1 races in 1973.

[PCC]

Jody Schekter used 0 on his McLaren for the N American F1 races in 1973.

And on his Can-Am Porsche that entire year.

[Disco Stu]

I've never seen a 4 digit number, but there was a 5 digit number in an Indy Car race.  Alex Lloyd drove car 40202 at Homestead in 2009, the car number referenced a number you could text charitable donations to:

 

https://cdn-1.motors...gan-racing.webp

Edited by Disco Stu, 28 December 2022 - 16:21.

[Henk Vasmel]

Not nostalgia yet, but one day it will be.

Logan Sargeant has repeatedly been shown with number 02 for next year, although some sources have this simplified into 2.

We have to wait to see what the car looks like at the first test session, or maybe the public unveiling. My bet is on 02.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.

 

But why '00'? It's not even a number!

You may be thinking of 1984 when the Andrettis drove  the first 962 chassis, wearing race #1.  I don’t recall their ever driving a 962 as 0 or 00.

[D28]

And on his Can-Am Porsche that entire year.

Right. The 0 was traditional for Vasek Polak who entered the Porsche. Scheckter carried the 0 over to his F1 races, but only for the Canada US rounds.

Edited by D28, 28 December 2022 - 16:42.

[MCS]

Scheckter raced a F5000 Shadow under 00 in the US, as did others (Tom Pryce comes to mind), whilst Jackie Oliver regularly raced what was usually the singleton UOP entry under the number 0.

 

Long, long ago . . . 

Edited by MCS, 28 December 2022 - 17:04.

[john aston]

Shredded Wheat sponsored a BTCC Focus in about 2017 . I smiled when I saw that they hadn't missed the opportunity  to use race number 3. The firm had a long running ad campaign in which tough guys like Ian Botham (a player of ball games I believe, m'lud ) bet the viewer they couldn't eat three Shredded Wheat

 

  Triple Eight Racing , co-founded by Derek Warwick also competed in early noughties BTCC but sadly not with the number 888 on the car as far as I can recall  .   

[Roger Clark]

A further question then…..
How were the starting grids arranged? One photo clearly shows four cars in a line but was it 4-3-4-3 or maybe 4-4-4-4 ?

This picture shows the start of the 1953 race. your guess is probably better than mine. https://library.revs...le-libre/411371

I recall when football teams were numbered 1-11, Barry. Much more sensible

Yet we now get commentators saying that so-and-so is playing as a number 9 or a number 10. I wonder if they know what they're talking about. Who next for Canaries?

[Disco Stu]

Not nostalgia yet, but one day it will be.

Logan Sargeant has repeatedly been shown with number 02 for next year, although some sources have this simplified into 2.

We have to wait to see what the car looks like at the first test session, or maybe the public unveiling. My bet is on 02.

I haven't seen 02 anywhere, every article I've seen about it says 2

[sabrejet]

I've never seen a 4 digit number, but there was a 5 digit number in an Indy Car race.  Alex Lloyd drove car 40202 at Homestead in 2009, the car number referenced a number you could text charitable donations to:

 

https://cdn-1.motors...gan-racing.webp

 

Early starters in the Mille Miglia had 4-digit race numbers.

[Sterzo]

You beat me to it Sterzo, and I am pretty sure you are correct, as I remember my Old Man (who was a very occasional and very amateur driver around that time) telling me that this had happened to him once, and he had asked at the time where the logic came from.

 

He thought it might have been based on expected lap times, as he had been given a VERY high number, but actually just a very late entrant !

Now I come to think of it, the VSCC either does (or did) use this system. The logic would be that it avoids having to repaint numbers on cars which run in several different races during the day.

[D28]

Lella Lombardi used # 208  trying to qualify her Brabham for the 74 British GP. Reported as the highest number ever used in F1, but that may be limited to WC races. Anyone know of a higher number?

[sabrejet]

You may be thinking of 1984 when the Andrettis drove  the first 962 chassis, wearing race #1.  I don’t recall their ever driving a 962 as 0 or 00.

 

It was 1991.

[Rob G]

  Triple Eight Racing , co-founded by Derek Warwick also competed in early noughties BTCC but sadly not with the number 888 on the car as far as I can recall  .   

 

But Triple Eight Race Engineering in Australia used number 888 for many years. They've had plenty of other triple-digit numbers, the dumbest one being 021.

[Tom Glowacki]

Didn't the Andrettis race a Porsche 962 at Daytona with race 'number' 00 one year? Aston is another more obvious one with '007' on DBR.9s.

 

But why '00'? It's not even a number!

It seemed to work for the Rover-BRM

[Ray Bell]

But wasn't it running in a separate class?

 

Or without a class, perhaps?

[marksixman]

But wasn't it running in a separate class?

 

Or without a class, perhaps?

A BRM "Without Class" !  Raymond Mays would rev in his grave !

 

But I think you are correct, it was a 'wild card' entry for which there really wasn't a class. It would today be referred to as "Garage 56". 

Edited by marksixman, 29 December 2022 - 10:30.

[Stephen W]

In Ulster Hillclimbing drivers when registering can request any three digit number and if it is unallocated they will get it. These numbers then become a permanent allocation until the driver requests another number. Several drivers have requested the wave length of radio stations that sponsored them.

[Glengavel]

An early Bob Tullius' Group 44 entry had the number 44 accidentally cut back to front, and Tullius raced it like that for some time. Damned if I can find a picture, although I could swear blind I've seen pictures of the IMSA Jaguars with the reversed numbers.

[nexfast]

At least the logo has reversed numbers:

 

 

http://www.bfcc.biz/...vd/group44.html

[ensign14]

It seemed to work for the Rover-BRM

Not so well for Dick Dastardly.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Lela's 208 would be because she was sponsored by Radio Luxembourg

I have lots of programmes from the 50s and 60s including Charterhall etc and the competitors are listed numerically at the start of the programme and then by race as many would do more than one race in the same car.  

[Catalina Park]

In Australia one of the Supercar teams in the 90s ran a car with 00. They wanted to run 0 but the rules said something like "0 alone shall not be used", so I guess two of them is OK then?

[Henk Vasmel]

I haven't seen 02 anywhere, every article I've seen about it says 2

https://www.tubantia...93b6/225371514/

 

This seems to be a copy of the original FIA announcement. Lots of journalists appear not to be aware of the difference between 2 and 02. And if you type it in into Excel, the zero disappears anyway.

[Jim Thurman]

The numbers 0, and 00 through 09 have a long history and aren't uncommon in U.S. racing, especially on the short track level.

 

Three digit numbers used to not be unheard of in NASCAR. At Riverside in particular, a '1' in front of the number. Gurney won driving #121 and Parnelli Jones won in #115. This was often due to duplicates with drivers from NASCAR's Western series. Later a 'w' behind the number designated Western drivers.

 

At major short track events for stock cars or sprint cars, it wasn't uncommon to have many cars with the same number arrive from around a region or the entire nation, which led to adding a "1" in front, an 'x' or an 'a' behind the number, or in many cases, another letter. The annual Knoxville Nationals for sprint cars is a great place for these.

 

In Central and Northern California, NASCAR sanctioned many different tracks and gave a letter designation for each track for when visiting cars would compete at another track. Thus, car #23M was from Merced, #23W from Watsonville, #23A from Antioch, etc.

 

At short tracks in California in the 1970s, I saw a car #000 and a car #013. After the James Bond movies, there often were U.S. short track cars numbered #007.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 29 December 2022 - 23:15.

[Disco Stu]

https://www.tubantia...93b6/225371514/

 

This seems to be a copy of the original FIA announcement. Lots of journalists appear not to be aware of the difference between 2 and 02. And if you type it in into Excel, the zero disappears anyway.

It's definitely not 02.  The story on F1's website announcing his number includes a Williams tweet of a video which shows car 2:

 

https://www.formula1...vT1j5lIEXS.html

 

There's also the official entry list in another story that shows him as 2.  I would bet on that other link just being a typo.

[pacificquay]

Not nostalgia yet, but one day it will be.

Logan Sargeant has repeatedly been shown with number 02 for next year, although some sources have this simplified into 2.

We have to wait to see what the car looks like at the first test session, or maybe the public unveiling. My bet is on 02.

I haven’t seen him with 02 anywhere, but he’s definitely 2 on the FIA entry list and I’d be both astonished and appalled if 02 was allowed

[pacificquay]

  Triple Eight Racing , co-founded by Derek Warwick also competed in early noughties BTCC but sadly not with the number 888 on the car as far as I can recall  .   

88 on Warwick’s car and 8 on teammate John Cleland’s

[john aston]

But would they need to run together to enjoy have the good fortune ascribed to 888 by the Chinese ? Wonder if anyone raced 666 ?  I can think of a few candidates ...  

[Henri Greuter]

In the mid 80's there were numbers over 100 allocated to cars of a certain category at Le Mans, have to dig into it more intensly to sort this out but I believe it had something to do with the IMSA category entries.

 

for example: The unique IMSA GTX 4WD Porsche 961 used 180 and 203 in '86 and '87.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 30 December 2022 - 08:29.

[ensign14]

The WSC took a typical multi-class approach to numbering;.  It varied a bit over the years, but, in 1983, Group C Junior cars started at 60, and Group B at 80.   In 1984, as entries took off, C Jr numbers started at 70, and B at 100.  Those numbers kept going up until the logical step in 1987 had C2 start at 100 and other classes from 200 up.

[BRG]

Shredded Wheat sponsored a BTCC Focus in about 2017 . I smiled when I saw that they hadn't missed the opportunity  to use race number 3. The firm had a long running ad campaign in which tough guys like Ian Botham (a player of ball games I believe, m'lud ) bet the viewer they couldn't eat three Shredded Wheat

 

  Triple Eight Racing , co-founded by Derek Warwick also competed in early noughties BTCC but sadly not with the number 888 on the car as far as I can recall  .   

Jack Tordoff was a leading national level rally competitor in the 60s and 70s and had the personal number plate JCT 600 on his Cortina and later on his Porsche rally cars.  His family's car dealership was renamed JCT 600 after he won the Circuit of Ireland Rally in 1973 in his 911.  It still carries that name and is a billion £+ empire these days - a far cry from its origins as 'Brooklands Garage' in Bradford.

 

When Jack's grandson Sam moved from Porsche racing to run in the BTCC, he carries the number 600 on his car.  Some younger BTCC fans complained about this, not understanding the significance.

 

In rallying, car numbers 000, 00 and 0 are commonplace these days, being the usual numbering for the course cars which precede competitors through the stages.  Before that, course cars were un-numbered, so when my old car club was asked to squeeze Tony Pond into the entry for one of our rallies, we ran him as car 0.  He won.  Naturally.

[john aston]

I remember Jack's Saab and 911 rally cars well . In homage I bought a Golf GTi from JCT 600 in the late Eighties 

[kayemod]

 

Lots of journalists appear not to be aware of the difference between 2 and 02. And if you type it in into Excel, the zero disappears anyway.

Not true, as any regular Excel user knows. There's a simple box to tick that says "Show leading zeros", it's in "format cells - custom". You can set this permanently, leading zeros are essential in many spreadsheets, and there are loads more different display options of this kind, all permanent until you un-tick them.

[WonderWoman61]

I've never seen a 4 digit number, but there was a 5 digit number in an Indy Car race.  Alex Lloyd drove car 40202 at Homestead in 2009, the car number referenced a number you could text charitable donations to:
 
https://cdn-1.motors...gan-racing.webp

[WonderWoman61]

Shredded Wheat sponsored a BTCC Focus in about 2017 . I smiled when I saw that they hadn't missed the opportunity to use race number 3. The firm had a long running ad campaign in which tough guys like Ian Botham (a player of ball games I believe, m'lud ) bet the viewer they couldn't eat three Shredded Wheat

Triple Eight Racing , co-founded by Derek Warwick also competed in early noughties BTCC but sadly not with the number 888 on the car as far as I can recall .

Edited by WonderWoman61, 30 December 2022 - 11:16.