7009 replies to this topic

[pacificquay]

An exciting time for McLaren, new driver line-up in F1, expansion in IndyCar and a new team in Formula E.

 

The team itself is using 2023 to push some special activity about it being the 60th anniversary of being founded.

 

With a new team principal and work continuing on infrastructure improvements there’s plenty to look forward to this year.

 

Car launch date is expected to be mid February and should be confirmed very soon.

[mclarensmps]

Just wanna get closer to the front       

[Risil]

Any grounds for optimism that McLaren can keep pace with Alpine?

[Beri]

Any grounds for optimism that McLaren can keep pace with Alpine?

To be fair; reliability issues at Alpine were the only reason for McLaren to even come close. So Working does have to make a huge step forward to even have a genuine claim to 4th or better. And somehow the year 2024 seems to be coming up. The year where the new facilities will be ready. I do not expect any wonders from the team any sooner than that. But I do hope the McLaren form will be enough to keep Norris happy. Else he might very well be a prime target for Audi to lure him away from under his contract.

[pup]

To be fair; reliability issues at Alpine were the only reason for McLaren to even come close.

37 points from McLaren's star driver was how Alpine slipped through.

[Risil]

It's going to be so interesting to see where Piastri stands vis a vis Norris. I feel there's got to be something unusual or difficult about the McLaren and how you find its speed, but I'm not expecting Oscar to be as lost as Ricciardo was.

[pup]

I agree. Both Ric and Lando are adamant that the car is difficult, and I’m sure to some extent it is - but then it’s also been in both their interest to play that up.

[RPM40]

For Norris' first season agains Sainz as a rookie he scored roughly half his points. Piastri will be wanting to be around about there or better. If he can do that it will be a successful first season for him.

 

I don't think anyone expects him to really challenge Norris straight out of the gates, but it is F1 and I don't think Oscar has ever lost to a team mate before.

Edited by RPM40, 02 January 2023 - 00:09.

[BertoC]

Im not expecting much, whatever place we end up I just want to be closer to the top teams. I want to see some sign of progress. Would be a bonus if oscar performs close to lando as I fear this could be his last season with us.

[Clatter]

I agree. Both Ric and Lando are adamant that the car is difficult, and I’m sure to some extent it is - but then it’s also been in both their interest to play that up.

I doubt there is a driver on the grid who says their car is easy to drive.

[Red5ive]

Not expecting anything other than losing a bit of further ground to Alpine, AM and the top 3..

[Risil]

I'd be very disappointed if McLaren slipped behind Aston Martin.

[f1rules]

I hope not, but i fear this scenario also, they just suddenly realized they lacked people/competences… well no **** sherlock, they just seem so so slow and reactive

Not expecting anything other than losing a bit of further ground to Alpine, AM and the top 3..

[kumo7]

Not expecting anything other than losing a bit of further ground to Alpine, AM and the top 3..

The factory tunnel isn’t ready, so it is likely that 23 will not be an easy ride. Unless the top four makes issues and the second McLaren driver scores as much as the first.

P.s. I have too fat fingers for my small iphone11 pro.

Edited by kumo7, 04 January 2023 - 08:50.

[SparkPlug86]

I'm hoping PIA is on a similar pace to NOR after the first 6 races.

[Risil]

I've just seen an endorsement from Oscar Piastri for QUAD LOCK, which is a case that allows you to securely mount your phone to your car windscreen.

 

Zak works these boys hard!

[SparkPlug86]

I've just seen an endorsement from Oscar Piastri for QUAD LOCK, which is a case that allows you to securely mount your phone to your car windscreen.

 

Zak works these boys hard!

 

All about the £££ or $$$ 

[pup]

I've just seen an endorsement from Oscar Piastri for QUAD LOCK, which is a case that allows you to securely mount your phone to your car windscreen.

Zak works these boys hard!

I used to have a quad lock for my bike. So I also heartily endorse.

Where’s my check, Zac?

[BRG]

I'm hoping PIA is on a similar pace to NOR after the first 6 races.

Let's not set a target like that.  Piastri is a rookie - hopefully he will shine, but just give him some room to find his feet.

 

I used to have a quad lock for my bike. So I also heartily endorse.

Where’s my check, Zac?

Shouldn't you be asking Quad Lock, not Zak?

[MirNyet]

37 points from McLaren's star driver was how Alpine slipped through.

 

I'm a little surprised that this is being forgotten/ignored so quickly from a lot of the outlets reviewing the 2022 season and the McLaren/Alpine battle.  Much is made of Alpines fragility over the course of the season, but Riccardo basically going missing doesn't seem to being factored into the equation for many.

 

That said, yes, a far better and more stable car is required, and quickly.  If they roll out another dud then they could slip even further back as many teams will be running clones of the Red Bull this year.

[Risil]

I'm hoping PIA is on a similar pace to NOR after the first 6 races.

I'm looking for at least one performance on Norris's pace in the first half of the year, and some consistent good finishes at the tail end, by which time we'll have calibrated what a good finish for McLaren is.

 

If you look at Norris's first year with McLaren he was there or thereabouts with Sainz in qualifying but the Spanish driver had a clear edge on race day. But he showed clear improvement every year after.

[BertoC]

I'm a little surprised that this is being forgotten/ignored so quickly from a lot of the outlets reviewing the 2022 season and the McLaren/Alpine battle. Much is made of Alpines fragility over the course of the season, but Riccardo basically going missing doesn't seem to being factored into the equation for many.

That said, yes, a far better and more stable car is required, and quickly. If they roll out another dud then they could slip even further back as many teams will be running clones of the Red Bull this year.

Indeed. Lando was almost always faster/on pace/close to the faster Alpine.

[kumo7]

Indeed. Lando was almost always faster/on pace/close to the faster Alpine.

I know PIA is a rookie and we should not push him to perform. But at the same time I am thinking that it is PIA himself who wants to beat his contemporary such as de Vries. Go PIA the team will be behind you.

[Beri]

37 points from McLaren's star driver was how Alpine slipped through.

 

Selective memory considering Alonso missed out on a potential pole position at Melbourne, showing how competitive the Alpine actually was at times, and an additional heap load of points due to reliability issues. Same goes for Ocon. So even without the yoke of Wokings big earner weighing down, I sincerely think Alpine would have "slipped through" as well. And there is no shame in that. Its just that McLaren needs to improve itself as a team and the car as well to get back to the top 4. Because acting like last year in 2023, there is certainly no guarantee that they even would end up in the top 5. And I already think this will be a hard nutt to crack only because of the fact that Piastri will have a damn steep learning curve to climb to be of value to McLaren. And if it takes him as long as it took Mick Schumacher at Haas, then McLaren could very well end up somewhere down the pack in 6th.

[MattPete]

I agree. Both Ric and Lando are adamant that the car is difficult, and I’m sure to some extent it is - but then it’s also been in both their interest to play that up.

 

 

This has been going on since Sainz's time, despite the radical change in the rules.  It seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong in their design philosophy or in their tools, because they keep designing cars in which the drivers lack confidence in the front-end grip.

[Colbul1]

I think McLaren has an ace in the hole with Lando who is clearly up there as 1 of the very fastest on the grid.  He has driven their cars now since 2017 and surely he must have solid input about how to develop this year's car and iron out some of the difficulties from last year's concept.  I also think Oscar will be like a sponge and soak up all of the knowledge Lando has as well as build from what he has learnt at Alpine. He will bring that knowledge of the Alpine's strengths as well.  What did make me chuckle this week was a picture the McLaren social media posted of Oscar dressed in the clothes Lando wears and with his hair styled the same as Lando.  I had to double check it was Oscar!  Perhaps they will be more alike than expected and if they can drive in the same style then there could be a good season ahead.

Edited by Colbul1, 04 January 2023 - 15:46.

[GreenMachine]

Looking forward to a couple of years of OP in orange, and hope that he then cuts and runs.  The orange cars are obviously idiosyncratic, and need driving in a particular way, I wouldn't want him 'trained' in such a way that moving later would mean unlearning 'bad' habits, or put another way require him learning a different style of driving. Sainz seems to have transitioned successfully, but he had prior F1 experience in other cars.  Daniel's experience should be a warning for Oscar initially, and then Lando.  I am pretty sure that Oscar's management (MW) would have said 'do a couple of years at McLaren, benchmark yourself against Lando, and then we'll get you a seat at one of the top teams'.

 

I wonder about Lando in that context, he seems to be successfully adapting to the orange way of doing things, how quickly/easily might he transition to a different car that requires different things of the driver?  It seems the earliest we will find that out will be 2025.

[BRG]

Oh, please!  You are trying to make out that McLaren cars are fundamentally different for any other and always will be.  Just because they maybe built a difficult car for a couple of years does not mean it will always be the same.  The 2023 could be a sweetheart, so quick & easy to drive that they romp to both championships.  We shall see. 

 

Mercedes built wonderful cars for years and then in 2022, they......didn't.  Red Bull had a 2022 car that Max found difficult.  Both teams managed to sort it. 

[Nobody]

Do we have a date yet? 

 

Reckon Feb 16

[MirNyet]

Selective memory considering Alonso missed out on a potential pole position at Melbourne, showing how competitive the Alpine actually was at times, and an additional heap load of points due to reliability issues. Same goes for Ocon. So even without the yoke of Wokings big earner weighing down, I sincerely think Alpine would have "slipped through" as well. And there is no shame in that. Its just that McLaren needs to improve itself as a team and the car as well to get back to the top 4. Because acting like last year in 2023, there is certainly no guarantee that they even would end up in the top 5. And I already think this will be a hard nutt to crack only because of the fact that Piastri will have a damn steep learning curve to climb to be of value to McLaren. And if it takes him as long as it took Mick Schumacher at Haas, then McLaren could very well end up somewhere down the pack in 6th.

 

Not at all, The Race did a really good video on this, and Alonso didn't miss out on nearly as many points as he thinks he did, at the end of the year, the points between the two Alpine drivers was quite close - whereas the difference between the McLaren pair was huge.  While the car being fragile certainly cost Alpine points, Riccardo being so far behind Norris not only cost McLaren points, but gifted Alpine points as well, as Ricciardo should have been ahead of both Alpines whenever Norris was, thus robbing them of points, not just earning points for McLaren.  Once you start looking at things like this, even with better reliability (and if we improving Alpines reliability, then we should also improve McLarens), if Ricciardo had been performing at a similar level to Norris, considering the points difference between the two teams at the end of the year, Alpine would and should have finished behind McLaren.

Should we be entirely blaming Ricciardo for this?  No, as the car wasn't great, and as many are pointing out, McLaren don't seem to be solving their weak front end which certainly hurt Ricciardo and cost Norris higher finishes too as the car had a tendency to eat its fronts quickly, so I don't want to start a discussion where we all collectively throw Ricciardo under the bus, but at the same time we shouldn't ignore or discount his under performance and what it cost McLaren, even if McLaren are partly to blame themselves.     

[Rumblestrip]

This has been going on since Sainz's time, despite the radical change in the rules.  It seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong in their design philosophy or in their tools, because they keep designing cars in which the drivers lack confidence in the front-end grip.

 

I think they've said before that that's just the way that their tools say is the way to go, and both drivers have been giving the same feedback for the last few years. We may not see a change until later this year with the new wind-tunnel.

[GreenMachine]

Oh, please!  You are trying to make out that McLaren cars are fundamentally different for any other and always will be.  Just because they maybe built a difficult car for a couple of years does not mean it will always be the same.  The 2023 could be a sweetheart, so quick & easy to drive that they romp to both championships.  We shall see. 

 

Mercedes built wonderful cars for years and then in 2022, they......didn't.  Red Bull had a 2022 car that Max found difficult.  Both teams managed to sort it. 

 

Different - maybe?  Difficult, that seems pretty clear.  And Ferrari and RB did sort their cars, McLaren haven't (yet).

 

Regardless, if I was in MW's shoes I would want Oscar making his mark over two years, and leaving for greener pastures at the front of the field.  Things may change over time with their new facilities, but McLaren are a second rank team and I would want my star in first rank machinery.

 

FWIW I think (wearing my driver manager hat) Lando made a mistake allowing himself to be tied up by McLaren for such a period.  Like Daniel he opted for a big payday, only time will tell if his career suffers (he is still only a kid after all, plenty of time to get the results he no doubt wants).

[Ali623]

https://twitter.com/...377212321570818

 

Car launch 13th February 

[Red5ive]

The factory tunnel isn’t ready, so it is likely that 23 will not be an easy ride. Unless the top four makes issues and the second McLaren driver scores as much as the first.

P.s. I have too fat fingers for my small iphone11 pro.

 

 

Sorry but I just dont buy this magic bullet wind tunnel theory that gets rolled out on here every couple of pages.

 

Having their own wind tunnel doesnt give them any extra time in it so logically beyond a  familiarisation/conveinience angle I dont see it meaning anything like as much as some people seem to think.

 

Being McLaren come next year there will be another excuse rolled out i.e "just wait until 2026 when we have our new drinks machine in the canteen" etc

 

Plus if Piastri is as good as people think then both drivers will have jumped ship within 2 seasons.

[pacificquay]

Sorry but I just dont buy this magic bullet wind tunnel theory that gets rolled out on here every couple of pages.

 

Having their own wind tunnel doesnt give them any extra time in it so logically beyond a  familiarisation/conveinience angle I dont see it meaning anything like as much as some people seem to think.

 

Being McLaren come next year there will be another excuse rolled out i.e "just wait until 2026 when we have our new drinks machine in the canteen" etc

 

Plus if Piastri is as good as people think then both drivers will have jumped ship within 2 seasons.

I don’t think Zak Brown era McLaren does make excuses - if anything it tends to under promise,

 

2022 was disappointing, but that’s been acknowledged.

[kumo7]

Sorry but I just dont buy this magic bullet wind tunnel theory that gets rolled out on here every couple of pages.

Having their own wind tunnel doesnt give them any extra time in it so logically beyond a familiarisation/conveinience angle I dont see it meaning anything like as much as some people seem to think.

Being McLaren come next year there will be another excuse rolled out i.e "just wait until 2026 when we have our new drinks machine in the canteen" etc

Plus if Piastri is as good as people think then both drivers will have jumped ship within 2 seasons.

The whole point is that we donno about what it unfolds.

What I say is that
McLaren will have battle to fourth may be fifth;
Unless top four rolled out a dog;
Or when PIA scores twice as much as RIC.

I think if RIC scored twice himself, then there were an obvious change in order. I still doubt RIC was playing dumb for two years in McLaren as he did not feel the championship contender under him, just like HAM played dum the last season. None said George is a better driver.

I do not see any change if RIC was sleeping or at the limit as long as he is not earning points for two years, through which McLaren has dropped its championship order. Who knows if the car is ready then RIC will outpace Norris immediately or not. I believe what I see, I say RIC is not capable of beating Norris in any car he was given.

So, RIC was booted, and or but, RedBull picked him up. I hate to say it, but,… Looking at the past with Honda, McLaren has its own work to do. Hope Stella will do this.

Never the less, having own tunnel which makes all planning issue free, all logistics free from payments should be a good thing, as long as it could take max out of it.
I think McLaren needs an aggressive concept and aggressive developments. Fry did well at Alpine. If you ask me if the there is someone who I think McLaren should poach from other teams, it’s him.

I guess I am not too far off your points.

Edited by kumo7, 07 January 2023 - 00:27.

[propercare]

Sorry but I just dont buy this magic bullet wind tunnel theory that gets rolled out on here every couple of pages.

Having their own wind tunnel doesnt give them any extra time in it so logically beyond a familiarisation/conveinience angle I dont see it meaning anything like as much as some people seem to think.

It's far from only logistical advantage. The one now used by McLaren is relatively outdated thus limiting its efficiency. Even marginal refining in the wind tunnel model can make lots of difference in F1, so will definitely help them given they have good engineers that can make a good use to it.

[FLB]

Uhh... What???

 

We want to move McLaren HQ to Middle East, says Saudi Arabia - Motor Sport Magazine

[pacificquay]

Uhh... What???

 

We want to move McLaren HQ to Middle East, says Saudi Arabia - Motor Sport Magazine

Clickbait headline unsupported by the article

[kumo7]

Uhh... What???

We want to move McLaren HQ to Middle East, says Saudi Arabia - Motor Sport Magazine

It says, or Aston. Both are unlikely to move, I think.
Why should Saudi not house its own racing team, for example for extreme-E or Dakar? The location asks more for these new racing series to be there. I think Dakar could move the HQ and the entire base to Saudi?

[BRG]

Uhh... What???

 

We want to move McLaren HQ to Middle East, says Saudi Arabia - Motor Sport Magazine

Good,  I am fed up with the traffic jams at the McLaren roundabout when the road car factory shifts change.

 

And of course Saudi Arabia has all the necessary expertise and infrastructure.  They really believe that they can buy anything they want, don't they?

Edited by BRG, 08 January 2023 - 11:51.

[Risil]

Looking forward to a couple of years of OP in orange, and hope that he then cuts and runs. The orange cars are obviously idiosyncratic, and need driving in a particular way, I wouldn't want him 'trained' in such a way that moving later would mean unlearning 'bad' habits, or put another way require him learning a different style of driving. Sainz seems to have transitioned successfully, but he had prior F1 experience in other cars. Daniel's experience should be a warning for Oscar initially, and then Lando. I am pretty sure that Oscar's management (MW) would have said 'do a couple of years at McLaren, benchmark yourself against Lando, and then we'll get you a seat at one of the top teams'.

I wonder about Lando in that context, he seems to be successfully adapting to the orange way of doing things, how quickly/easily might he transition to a different car that requires different things of the driver? It seems the earliest we will find that out will be 2025.

I reckon Sainz's experience demonstrates that a reflective personality who is good at learning and curious about their own weaknesses can overcome a difficult or unfamiliar car. He did it at McLaren and managed it at Ferrari.

Ricciardo, who IMHO is a greater natural talent but -- as it became clear -- was not as thoughtful or rounded a driver as Sainz, struggled badly.

I have no clue what Norris or Piastri are really like to work with and how they deal with really difficult problems. Perhaps no one does as they are in the early stage of their careers and everything so far seems to have been a path to greater success and recognition.

Reminds me of Croesus's dictum in Herodotus that no one can say he is truly happy until the moment of his death. No driver is truly great until he retires. While you're in the arena, you naturally expose yourself to new experiences and changes of fortune and these may reveal unsuspected weaknesses and sudden failure. Ricciardo inspires gloomy thoughts.

But Piastri needn't have the same fate. A drive at McLaren is a great opportunity and he probably isn't worried about the car's difficult balance.

[FLB]

 

Reminds me of Croesus's dictum in Herodotus that no one can say he is truly happy until the moment of his death. No driver is truly great until he retires. While you're in the arena, you naturally expose yourself to new experiences and changes of fortune and these may reveal unsuspected weaknesses and sudden failure. Ricciardo inspires gloomy thoughts.

But Piastri needn't have the same fate. A drive at McLaren is a great opportunity and he probably isn't worried about the car's difficult balance.

 

 

[Risil]

It looks like a cartoon about cute American kids but it's actually daily existential pain.

[aray]

Only for those who have 'potential' or expectation of it.

[GlenWatkins]

It looks like a cartoon about cute American kids but it's actually daily existential pain.

Good Grief Charlie Brown!  

Edited by GlenWatkins, 10 January 2023 - 09:25.

[1player]

Cries in Lando Norris... can't wait for the lad to get a good car and silence all the naysayers.

[Nathan]

Oh, please!  You are trying to make out that McLaren cars are fundamentally different for any other and always will be.  Just because they maybe built a difficult car for a couple of years does not mean it will always be the same.  The 2023 could be a sweetheart, so quick & easy to drive that they romp to both championships.  We shall see. 

 

I think it makes sense.  Not forever and because it's McLaren, maybe for as long as the current James Key concept is in play.  Evolutions of concepts is what F1 cars design is, as you know.  Designs teams have many different concepts from how to put energy into tyres, how to move air around the car, where to locate the steering box.  All these are inevitably are going to create handling and performance signatures.

 

So yes, it can very well be the way a design senior management want to tackle aerodynamics creates a inherent effect elsewhere, either a pitch sensitivity, or a radical drop in performance within a certain speed window, or how tyres warm up.  This is all so sensitive we seen time and time again how differing engineering concepts can dictate how a car brakes.  Often it isn't because of design error, but because other design dictates the behavior.  And if a team always pursue that concept they will always get those effect to some degree.  

[Nobody]

unconfirmed 

https://www.foxsport...733480cd4ce1091

[1player]

unconfirmed
https://www.foxsport...733480cd4ce1091

I've been in a car together with people I'm not friends with. Probably they met up to talk Lando, the McLaren car and its stiff front end. Aussies are a friendly bunch.