10 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

I was just reading John Surtees biography where he said he set fastest lap at the 1970 South African GP in his modified McLaren M7C, and I thought what an impressive achievement that was.  So impressive, I thought I'd better factcheck it.  I pulled Autocourse from my shelf, and it confirmed this feat, a time of 1m 20.8s on lap 6 which was equalled by Jack Brabham later in the race. Motor Sport has the same, as does the relevant Black Book, Wikipedia, Formula1.com and even the very reliable statsf1.com.  

 

But Autocourse also had those meticulous lap charts, with the time of every lap, and that showed Surtees registering 1m 22.8s on lap 6, not 1m 20.8s.  He was in traffic at that time, and the cars around him were also in the 1m 22s and 1m 23s as well. 

 

Jack Brabham's time is confirmed by the lap chart, but the quickest I can see by Surtees was a banzai effort of 1m 21.1s on lap 15 when he overtook Siffert.  Still very impressive, and quicker than anyone else except Brabham.  

 

So is the official record wrong, and the last of Big John's 11 F1 fastest laps actually an error?

 

This is where somebody tells me we had a thread on this in 2002 

[funformula]

What lap times was Hulme running on lap 5, 6 & 7?

In the linked youtube video below at minute 13:50 you can see Brabham overtaking Ickx and Hulme pulling beside Siffert so most likely around lap 6.

I would estimate the gap between Hulme and Surtees about 0.5 - 1 seconds here.

Surtees never passed Hulme during that race, so if Hulme did for example a 1:22.5 on lap 6 I would doubt Surtees 1:20.8 as he then must´ve overtaken Hulme.

 

1970 South African GP Highlights - YouTube

Edited by funformula, 27 January 2023 - 18:49.

[cooper997]

Looks like some confusion crept in early in the race, perhaps a clue in the David Phipps report from 12/3/70 Autosport has some merit?

"For three laps the order at the head of the field remained unchanged, and Stewart pulled out a lead of 4 secs on Ickx. But further back there was a great deal of chopping and changing, defeating the official lap scorers for a while, ..."

 

The same issue has 2 pages of Alan Phillips credited event data. Where the shared fastest lap of 1min 20.8 / 113.614mph shows Surtees lap 6 and Brabham lap 71

 

The Surtees McLaren photo caption also makes reference to joint fastest lap.

 

 

Stephen

[Porsche718]

Motor Sport also has Surtees and Brabham sharing fastest lap. But apart from his retirement, Surtees was never mentioned in their race report. Where he was after the first lap melee is not said, but the big mover by the end of lap 6 was Brabham who had passed Oliver, Beltoise and Ickx.

 

So how Surtees could have run a 1:20.8 on lap 6 in mixed up traffic and on full tanks I think is beyond plausible.

 

I think we need to trust Autocourse's lap chart rather then their printed results.

 

I think I made mention in another thread about one mis-transposition of a number, becomes reality for ever.

[B Squared]

Automobile Year #18 also shows the two sharing the fastest lap.

[ReWind]

I don't expect a contemporary source to deny Big John the credit for shared fastest lap.
I recommend to add up the lap times of the first - say - ten laps from Autocourse and to compare the results to the lap chart.
Does 1 min 20.8 s instead of 1 min 22.8 s make a difference in the placings? (In other words: Would it lift Surtees in front of another driver whom he actually did not pass?)

[dgs]

Forix website has following

 

Jack Brabham 1'20.8" (on lap 71). John Surtees 1'21.1" (lap 15)  and next driver Jackie Stewart 1'21.3" (lap 3)

  

[Allen Brown]

I don't expect a contemporary source to deny Big John the credit for shared fastest lap.
I recommend to add up the lap times of the first - say - ten laps from Autocourse and to compare the results to the lap chart.
Does 1 min 20.8 s instead of 1 min 22.8 s make a difference in the placings? (In other words: Would it lift Surtees in front of another driver whom he actually did not pass?)

 

The Autocourse lap chart gives the total elapsed time after each lap as well as the lap time, and that ideicates the 1m 22.8s is correct.  The lap chart evidence fits in with the video evidence as well.

 

I think it's case closed, but who's going to tell Wikipedia?

[ReWind]

It is not just Wikipedia but various websites with F1 results, too.
I'm afraid there is no real chance for a change.
Nearly twenty years ago I proved the incorrectness of the 1977 Canadian GP results. And look what the Internet tells us, though.

[D28]

The correction would need to come from whichever org has the official statistics. But one can see reluctance to change, as there must be many instances in earlier years of incorrect FL. Timing to 1 decimal place ensures there will be overlapping. For example the 1954 British GP lists no fewer than 7 drivers posting 1.50, a very dubious result.

[Collombin]

For example the 1954 British GP lists no fewer than 7 drivers posting 1.50, a very dubious result.

That's more a case of inadequate levels of available precision rather than a suggestion of any error though.