796 replies to this topic

[thegamer23]

Updates not doing any good.

Magnussen doing his best Mazepin impression by spending most of the race nowhere.

At least Hulk tried.

[Laster]

Updates seemed fine. They started from pitlane while Magnussen unfortunately still struggled Hulk passed both Alfa Romeo and had the pace to beat the Williams if he hadn’t effectively started last. They weren’t nowhere by the end of the race as has been the norm this season, they were fighting with the rest of the lower midfield and Hulk was faster than all of them bar Tsunoda.

Edited by Laster, 22 October 2023 - 20:51.

[speedx]

It seems tires are not falling apart anymore, at least on Nicos car. The speed is not there...

[BoDarvelle]

After changing to the hards on the first stop KMag said the balance was all over the place. Didn't hear Hulk make any comments along the same lines.

 

They had Hulk doing a lot of lift and coasting. Basically 3/4's of the race and told him to lift even earlier at about half race until the end. Apparently went pretty light on fuel and didn't get the hoped for SC.

 

eta-I'd be surprised if they didn't have different setups on the two cars as it was essentially a test session. Steiner said as much pre race.

Edited by BoDarvelle, 22 October 2023 - 21:19.

[Laster]

Hulk seemed particularly positive from his post race interview suggesting they could have potentially contested for points had they qualified in the midfield rather than starting from the pitlane.

Kevin Magnussen:

“I think the race was better because of the changes we made. It still wasn’t enough though, we weren’t fast enough, and we finished in the position we started in from the pitlane, so we need to find more, but we live to fight another day. It felt better today after having done the changes, putting more downforce on and it was definitely a better set-up.”



Nico Hulkenberg:

“The car felt better and I think the relative performance looked a lot more promising than yesterday but it came at a price, having to start from the pitlane. I feel like if we had a half decent qualifying and qualified in the midfield, we might’ve been able to fight and challenge for points today. There are some positives and encouraging signs, but at the same time it was difficult out there with a lot of tire management going on, but that was the case for everyone.”



Guenther Steiner, Team Principal:

“It was a tough race, but obviously it was the right decision to start from the pitlane with the modifications to the downforce level. We learned quite a bit and hopefully we can look into the data and get a little bit better in Mexico. It’s not a magic solution that we’ve got now, but some of the comments from Kevin and Nico were encouraging, so let’s hope we can get closer to what is possible with the car in Mexico.”

[LolaB0860]

Alpha Minardi Rosso is only 2 points behind now in constructors championship. There's real danger of finishing P10 if they don't get their act together with the update. And seeing as they'll do terribly at least in one of the remaining 4 races (Vegas will be cold and Haas is crap in getting tires to temperature) it doesn't look great

[rocque]

Gannon: Sargeant is 1 behind, he has DRS. He is on two-lap used new medium, two lap old.

Hulkenberg: We could have ???... just create more tyre delta.

 

Next lap:
Hulkenberg: I don't understand why we... we know the tyre problem, you send me outright to push. Great tyre delta.

Gannon: Yeah, understood Nico. Understood.

Hulkenberg: Yeah, understood. It's too late...

 

Just before losing position to Sargeant:

Hulkenberg: Here we go. Used mediums, ciao for now.

They have chosen used mediums for 21 laps just to cover Sargeant. Hulk's second stint was just 15 laps on new mediums...

 

Tsunoda has gained 5 points thanks to DSQs. Both Williams in the top10, Hulk could have beaten them. Such a good opportunity, no points again. Just excellent...

Edited by rocque, 23 October 2023 - 19:30.

[BoDarvelle]

They need to hire someone that understands strat. They have been comically bad for years in that department.

[jcbc3]

Well, it's hard. We know Ferrari has been the Kings of screw-ups but equally both Mercedes and McLaren misread the necessities this race.

[rocque]

Correction on Sunday brought the turning point

In an effort to find the optimal setup from little data and at the same time understand the new aero package, the simplest task went wrong. The engineers decided on far too little downforce when setting the wings. This cost us speed in the fast corners and caused severe tire wear during sprints.

 

So as before. "At least we learned how not to do it," Komatsu admitted. "We observed in the first training session that many teams were one level below the maximum downforce. That confirmed to us that we were right. But many then went back to having more wings before parc fermé."

 

Haas took the step on Sunday. At the price that both drivers had to start from the pits. “It was worth it because we now have a lot more data,” Steiner agreed with his engineers. Nico Hülkenberg also saw it this way: "It wasn't ideal to bring such a big upgrade in a sprint. You just don't have a night where you can sleep on it and let the experience sink in. The conversion and the start out of the box have "It was worth it. We learned a lot from it."

 

Two seconds away from a World Championship point

After the disqualifications, Hülkenberg even came close to World Championship points. Logan Sargeant was only 1.9 seconds away. That's why his conclusion is cautiously optimistic: "Despite starting from the pits, we were close to the Williams. For the first time in a long time, I overtook other cars and I wasn't always overtaken. If we could have qualified in the middle of the field, points would have been possible."

 

The perplexity after the sprint was followed by at least a bit of enlightenment. “The car has improved in some areas, but it has also adopted a few weaknesses from its predecessor,” says Hülkenberg. The contact pressure seems a bit more stable and the car overall more predictable.

 

Tire wear is no longer quite as critical, but is still a long way from what is hoped for with the new concept. “When we were alone on the track, the tires no longer overheated as much as before. We still have a problem in traffic,” say the engineers. Team boss Steiner believes: "To completely solve the problem, we need a different rear suspension. That won't be available until next year. We're dependent on Ferrari for that."

 

The new car takes time

Austin was the first of five lessons. Magnussen encourages his technicians: "Things went better in the race because the setup was better. But we still need more." The Dane was driving with a handicap after the first pit stop. The steering wheel was crooked due to a problem with the power steering. Magnussen needed a stint to get used to it.

 

In Steiner's opinion, Hülkenberg should have extended the second stint a little instead of reacting to the Williams' pit stops. "The tires would have lasted for a longer stint. But we also lack a bit of self-confidence because of the bad experiences with the old car."

 

The South Tyrolean is happy that the premiere of the B version wasn't a crash. "There is always this danger with such major modifications. It was a step in the right direction. We'll only see in a few races whether it was enough." Hülkenberg also urges patience: "It will take time until we find out how we have to adjust the car to get the most out of it."

 

Operations manager Komatsu sees positive approaches: "There are signs that we are getting more downforce from the underbody. This creates more potential to improve the driving characteristics and protect the tires better." The show of strength with the new car should also give the engineers the direction for 2024. “We still have time to react now. It’s too late during the test drives before next season,” warns Steiner.

https://www.auto-mot...-erstes-urteil/

Edited by rocque, 30 October 2023 - 23:49.

[thegamer23]

10th in constructors.

Hulk tyres fading in the last 10 laps.
Mag's car destroyed

Dishaaaster.

.

Edited by thegamer23, 29 October 2023 - 22:15.

[just me again]

All those frontwings that Magnussen last year was forced to change, and Leclerc can miss an endplate with a virtual safety car as consequence, without himself suffer any kind of penalty!!!!

[search]

All those frontwings that Magnussen last year was forced to change, and Leclerc can miss an endplate with a virtual safety car as consequence, without himself suffer any kind of penalty!!!!

the rules were changed since then, though. In case of damages like that, it's now up to the teams to decide, and they only get penalized when they make the wrong call and it causes danger indeed.

 

Overall, I thought it was a promising race from Hülkenberg, btw. He looked quicker than the Williams and Alpine behind over the first half of the race, which I didn't expect at all.

[KWSN - DSM]

They did change the rules, allowing the teams to control the calling in or not, in order that a car capable of racing with a part sticking out, yet not in danger of falling off to be left out - Since we saw how it DID fall of, prompting a virtual this should have been the clear case of a penalty for running a dangerous car - As in that was exactly what the rules were changed to... You keep them out, if does not work you have a penalty.

 

But Ferrari ain't no Haas.

[Mark521]

My untrained eye saw HUL hang in there during that last stint far longer than one would expect.  While this new spec isn't as "Qually Fast" as the old one, it seems a bit easier on the tires. Hopefully next season's Ferrari rear suspension will be a bit more forgiving.

[Laster]

It was a shame Hulk didn’t come away with a point, but he’s been close these past two weekends. Without the red flag forcing him to go over half the race on the mediums he likely would have been able to keep the others behind him. There is pace there though I expect Alpine to bounch back as their engine is always lacking in power at Mexico.

They are now however bottom and need to pick up enough points to at least draw level with Alfa Romeo and Alpha Tauri - they would jump ahead of Alfa Romeo by virtue of Hulk’s 7th place in Australia.

[rocque]

Guenther Steiner, Team Principal:

“It looks like our heaviest downforce package is just not enough for here, we’ve struggled in the slower sectors because of the thin air at this altitude. It’s one of these things, we’ll work on it for next year – so that our high downforce package works here as well.

https://www.haasf1te...city-grand-prix

 

Degradation was fine, but this car massively lacks aero development.

 

The most bitter thing for Haas, however, is that Daniel Ricciardo's seventh place saw the team fall back to last place in the constructors' championship. “That was inevitable,” comments Hülkenberg.

 

"We are paying the price for not making any upgrades and not finding any performance for a long time. Hopefully this is a wake-up call for everyone at the factory. You can't survive in Formula 1 with such steps."

https://www.motorspo...wuerde-23103004

Edited by rocque, 01 November 2023 - 14:17.

[Mark521]

So today's qual didn't look too bad, HUL just missed Q3. If the car is now better on the tires then maybe, just maybe this upgrade/direction will pay off.

[BoDarvelle]

They said that Hulk and KMag were the only drivers to not go faster on their second run. Odd.

[AlexS]

So today's qual didn't look too bad, HUL just missed Q3. If the car is now better on the tires then maybe, just maybe this upgrade/direction will pay off.

 I think the upgrade is already positive. By how much is difficult to say.

[SophieB]

I split the right of review stuff off here:

 

https://forums.autos...es-split-topic/

[AlexS]

Very poor, The mediums did not worked at all.

[speedx]

Why didn't they put at least one car on softs, just to see how long they last.
But, they had massive problems even on mediums... Bad, really Bad.

[Mark521]

Did they bring back the old car?

[rocque]

Another pitlane start on cards?

[BoDarvelle]

Might as well. In the Sprint they were fading badly on mediums while everyone else was on softs.

[speedx]

Dropping like stone. The slowest car on track...

[speedx]

STRUGGLING HAAS TAKES UPGRADE OFF HULKENBERG'S CAR

https://www.the-race...ico-hulkenberg/

A bit weird, but it could help Hulk on this track next.

[Laster]

Well they got nothing to lose by trying it, they’re already last. If the fears for keeping heat in the tyres at Las Vegas come true then it may end up helping. I still suspect Haas will struggle with tyre deg regardless.

Edited by Laster, 13 November 2023 - 16:51.

[Mark521]

Hopefully Ferrari's 2024 rear suspension will be more forgiving on the tires than 2023. Combine that with the Red Bull downwash aero set up and they might just stay mid pack next year.

[AlexS]

Using the old car do not look good at all.

[rocque]

Haas splits its cars at the GP Las Vegas of its own free will. Nico Hülkenberg asked the team to give him the old car back. Simple reason: "Because it's faster." According to team boss Guenther Steiner, there is a simple reason for this: "The new car produces less downforce than the old one."

 

This is particularly effective in fast corners and in the first braking phase. The old Haas is more stable on the road. “Nico simply has more trust in the old car because it is more predictable in the moments that are important to him,” explains operations manager Ayao Komatsu. With Kevin Magnussen it's the other way around. The Dane feels more comfortable with the B version, which debuted in Austin.

https://www.auto-mot...sion-las-vegas/

 

Gannon: It's three more timed. We like to just see where this tyre wear goes.

Hulkenberg: That's ok. No problem. Just for the start.

Edited by rocque, 18 November 2023 - 00:26.

[KWSN - DSM]

Well done Kevin, well done indeed.

[search]

Going by the interview with Hülkenberg after qualifying, he plans to use the old car in Abu Dhabi as well. He said that he expects it work better there, particularly in the fast corners.

[KWSN - DSM]

Is that really his choice?

[Laster]

He hasn’t minced his words lately with the upgrades to the Haas. I’m sure the team would prefer him to use the new updates, it wouldn’t call them into question like this.

[search]

yeah, in that interview (on Austrian Servus TV) he said that he feels more comfortable with the old car, and that his numbers don't show any disadvantage either. After Abu Dhabi they'd do a proper analysis to compare both.

 

So I'd think it's his personal choice indeed. For tomorrow he doesn't expect much, though, as the car was bad on tracks like Baku, Monza and Montreal as well. Today's performance was much better than expected already.

[AlexS]

For me this shows the engineers did not understand the new concept.

[FLB]

Huuuuh.... What?!? (Deadline is a serious Hollywood source)

 

 

CBS Developing Workplace Comedy With Haas Racing’s Guenther Steiner – Deadline

Edited by FLB, 22 November 2023 - 01:56.

[JordanIreland]

CBS plans TV comedy show with Haas F1 boss Steiner

https://www.autospor...einer/10550070/

 

That sums up HAAS very well. 

[ARTGP]

This makes so much sense to be fair. 

[Astandahl]

https://www.auto-mot...sion-las-vegas/

I think i know why Kevin likes the new car more. Apparently the downwash concept, despite producing overall less DWF, seems beneficial for the diffuser and beamwing airflow. My theory is that makes the rear of the car more predictable, which probably helps Kevin more than Nico.

Edited by Astandahl, 22 November 2023 - 17:01.

[Mark521]

Great job by Nico, hopefully we get some early carnage up front and gain a few more positions as he'll sink like a stone during the long runs.

Might as well install the aero rake on Kevin's car and gather up some additional data for 2024.

[KWSN - DSM]

Last half of the season Hulkenberg have been the much better of the two.

[MortenF1]

…and also the first half.

[VamosVamos]

Another season of Steiner gloriously leading the team to P10 in the WCC.

Nothing summarises so much that Haas are not a serious team than keeping Steiner on

[Mark521]

Not a surprising outcome for the race, but certainly a disappointment over the season. I'd like to blame the seconded Ferrari engineers for the lack of positive developments but this issue has pre-dated their inclusion in the team.  While the downwash concept can be better incorporated with the 2024 tub/crash structure, I see no particular reason for optimism beyond a mid pack race car at pre-season testing, with the now traditional performance fade over the first half of the season and a "grasp at straws update" after the summer break. I personally hate the "fire the manager" solution it might be time for a fresh face/outlook at/near the top of the organization.  Might as well start looking for Nico's replacement too as unless a miracle happens, he'll have signed elsewhere by summer break. Oh well, hope springs eternal.