54 replies to this topic

[FullThrottleF1]

Based off the news that Honda has submitted interest in the 2026 engine regulations. I was just curious to see what people thought about Honda and F1. Have the board slowly started to change their minds, perhaps wanting to partner with another team (maybe Williams)? Perhaps even more, maybe buying a team.?

 

What does everyone think?

[Beri]

Williams, please.

[Dalton007]

They will be bankrupt because their EV transition is too slow.

[Stephane]

I think they won't be there.

But if they are, yes, the only teams could be Williams or McLaren, or a new one.

Haas or Aston are said to be too close to their current supplier

[eibyyz]

Ganassi-Honda.  Dixon and Palou.  :-)

[William Hunt]

new team please

[TheFish]

Whatever makes the least sense for them at the time. They’re spectacularly bad at timing.

[juicy sushi]

I think they will be out of F1, and the better for it.  They seem to have no coherent plan for how F1 fits into what they want to do, or how to do it.  I think the only reason they consider F1 is because Soichiro took them there twice in the past, so they think it is something they have to do, rather than because they want to race for a solid reason.

 

And the lack of available options for partners, regardless of their stated interest in the 2026 engine rules, means that corporate inertia should see them staying on the sidelines again.  Probably until 2027, when they will return late and unprepared because they still don't know why they race, so are unable to make a success of it.

[AustinF1]

new team please

Negative, Ghostrider. This is F1.  Apparently now there is a required minimum of 3 unused entries. New teams need not apply. Moose out front shoulda told ya.

[TomNokoe]

I hope they buy Alpha Tauri

[Beri]

They will be bankrupt because their EV transition is too slow.

EV isn't THE solution. It is A solution. Fully synthetic and carbon neutral fuels are likely to become very important very soon. And it will be a mean that is likely to change the plans now taken by many manufacturers exclaiming to go all electric by year X. And then we haven't talked about the leap that hydrogen has taken in the past 12 months. This transition is also not to be ignored.

I'd say electric is likely to be even the least best solution. Simply because many power grids arent suited for all electric. And the generation of electricity is also far off the level it should be.

So Honda might very well be in a great position to adapt to this changing market better than the manufacturers who have taken the electric road already.

[917k]

EV isn't THE solution. It is A solution. Fully synthetic and carbon neutral fuels are likely to become very important very soon. And it will be a mean that is likely to change the plans now taken by many manufacturers exclaiming to go all electric by year X. And then we haven't talked about the leap that hydrogen has taken in the past 12 months. This transition is also not to be ignored.

I'd say electric is likely to be even the least best solution. Simply because many power grids arent suited for all electric. And the generation of electricity is also far off the level it should be.

So Honda might very well be in a great position to adapt to this changing market better than the manufacturers who have taken the electric road already.

Agree, look at what MB have accomplished in 6 years with fuel burn efficiency….this and clean fuels could really upset the apple cart.

Edited by 917k, 06 February 2023 - 20:04.

[Nova]

Out of F1.

 

I can only speculate about the processes behind the spectacularly poor decisions they have done up to now. Hope I am wrong, but I just can't see how they can start with clean slates again.

[Mat13]

I don’t think we need to see Honda back for a while.

[AustinF1]

Agree, look at what MB have accomplished in 6 years with fuel burn efficiency….this and clean fuels could really upset the apple cart.

Exactly. This is exactly what I ranted about when so many were saying battery-electric was the only way forward. It's utter nonsense. There isn't just one possible solution out there, but many, and it's pure folly for all research efforts to be focused into one narrow path. With the cleaner-burning ICEs we have now, and the improvements in Hydrogen power and EV battery performance, imho the most likely way forward for a while is with continuing development and proliferation of hybrid power and with EVs with onboard range extenders a la hydrogen fuel cells or gas turbines, etc. Full battery-EVs just don't make nearly as much sense as those options imho. 

Edited by AustinF1, 06 February 2023 - 23:13.

[William Hunt]

 

Negative, Ghostrider. This is F1.  Apparently now there is a required minimum of 3 unused entries. New teams need not apply. Moose out front shoulda told ya.

 

 

If Honda decides to start a new team from scratch, they will be allowed in

[AustinF1]

If Honda decides to start a new team from scratch, they will be allowed in

One would certainly hope so, but ...

[Afterburner]

Would love to see them make it to the top with a works team, but I think the engine supply deal with RBR was their best shot as any of the teams potentially “for sale” are not based anywhere that facilitate ease of recruiting top staff. Too bad corporate faffed around with their commitment to things as they could have had a long run of success not seen since the early 90’s. I hope they stick around but wouldn’t want to see them just making up the numbers. A partnership with McLaren or Williams look like the two most viable options right now, but one doesn’t know where either of those may find themselves in the coming years.

 

2021/2022 may be the high point for another decade or so…

[CoolBreeze]

Meh, they should be chased out of F1. They bloody can't seem to make up their minds, year in year out, same nonsense.

[Baddoer]

History books.

[kumo7]

Honda is waisting money and resources. 

[pdac]

Exactly. This is exactly what I ranted about when so many were saying battery-electric was the only way forward. It's utter nonsense. There isn't just one possible solution out there, but many, and it's pure folly for all research efforts to be focused into one narrow path. With the cleaner-burning ICEs we have now, and the improvements in Hydrogen power and EV battery performance, imho the most likely way forward for a while is with continuing development and proliferation of hybrid power and with EVs with onboard range extenders a la hydrogen fuel cells or gas turbines, etc. Full battery-EVs just don't make nearly as much sense as those options imho. 

 

Not sure why they are all bothering, though.The climate is already screwed. It's a shame that they all seem to put their eggs into the same, one, basket. It's the same with F1 teams - they all avoid doing something different for the fear that the others might have the right solution, rather than believing that they have the right solution and the others are wrong. But I guess it's the "no one got fired for buying IBM" thinking.

[Zoe]

They will be bankrupt because their EV transition is too slow.

 

Is that another quality prediction of yours like the Brexit one? 

 

As for Honda, I don't really care, as most likely I will be out of F1 by 2026    Honda will be alive and kicking in 2026, regardless of their motor sport acitivites.

[Beri]

Not sure why they are all bothering, though.The climate is already screwed. It's a shame that they all seem to put their eggs into the same, one, basket. It's the same with F1 teams - they all avoid doing something different for the fear that the others might have the right solution, rather than believing that they have the right solution and the others are wrong. But I guess it's the "no one got fired for buying IBM" thinking.

 

EV's are somewhat the only solution that are readily available. Hop an electric engine on and add some off the shelve battery packs and presto.. here is your EV. So no one ever bothered to look any further. Short sighted (European) legislators included. With F1 prominently promoting fully synthetic and carbon neutral fuels per 2026, the discussion will lift off if electrification is really the solution and more routes will be explored. The big manufacturers committed to electrification, e.g. Volvo and Mercedes, will likely have a hard time U turing their ship on this. If not only for the marketing damage they will encounter when coming back from this strategy.

But for the forseeable future these E fuels are truly a solution also for the parts of the world where getting electricity is a challenge on its own. Think about rural areas of Africa and India. But even rural area's of China and even big cities in said countries do have issues with getting a stable powergrid. And these parts of the world see a lot of cars and bikes. More than all of the cars and bikes in the USA combined. So there is a lot to gain there simply by having clean fuels readily available rather than electricity which hasnt reached those parts of the world en masse for over 100 years already.

[Laster]

I’d love to see Honda start a new team, but I don’t imagine that ever happening. As others have said they are spectacularly bad at their timing, which is a shame because they have shown given time they do have the techinical expertise to fight their way to the front. But they’ve always got their foot halfway out of the F1 door. If they just properly full on committed to it, they could be a force to be reckoned with. Right now however it appears they lack real cohesive direction, like various leading figures in the company want to take it in different directions, or at least that’s the impression I get.

[kumo7]

I’d love to see Honda start a new team, but I don’t imagine that ever happening. As others have said they are spectacularly bad at their timing, which is a shame because they have shown given time they do have the techinical expertise to fight their way to the front. But they’ve always got their foot halfway out of the F1 door. If they just properly full on committed to it, they could be a force to be reckoned with. Right now however it appears they lack real cohesive direction, like various leading figures in the company want to take it in different directions, or at least that’s the impression I get.

 

I do not think that Honda will ever put up their effort to run it own F1 team. For Honda F1 is a test bed for their new technology, E-cars. Honda Motor Co., think that it put its own foot wrong by spending so much effort into the Formula-1 racing, Honda should have done more on E development. So now, there are bits of ways open for them to stress their technology with 2026 reg that allow more E power. It seems that the reg interest the a bit. Perhaps it look for new combination with a larger company, like as if it does share knowledge and resources on developing a road going car.

 

Perhaps Honda is thinking about making a tag with GM, or whoever who seems to think similarly. If Honda find one, them¥n, it will try to be on the grid. IMHO.

[Nathan]

McLaren Honda 3.0.  Neither have a choice.

[Beri]

McLaren Honda 3.0.  Neither have a choice.

 

Williams.

[mmmcurry]

Williams.

How easy would it be for them to separate from Merc now they get gearboxes and hydraulics from them? Have they lost that expertise?

[Risil]

This thread title is equally applicable for their MotoGP team, sadly. Or their World Superbike team, since about 2009.

[Beri]

How easy would it be for them to separate from Merc now they get gearboxes and hydraulics from them? Have they lost that expertise?

If so, then Honda must have some expertise to do this. Also there would even be manufacturers who can build Williams a tailor made gearbox. Xtrac and Hewland spring to mind. Of which the latter would be a great addition to have Hewland plastered all over the side of a Williams once more 😉 Melancholy, I know.

[Nova]

This thread title is equally applicable for their MotoGP team, sadly. Or their World Superbike team, since about 2009.

[Rumblestrip]

McLaren Honda 3.0.  Neither have a choice.

 

I'd argue that one of the things that held them back last time was only having McLaren. I'd assume that the sensible route would be to have McLaren as the factory effort and try to get Williams as a customer.

[Afterburner]

This thread title is equally applicable for their MotoGP team, sadly. Or their World Superbike team, since about 2009.

Nope. Elsewhere on the board recently I was lamenting what a year 2009 could’ve been: F1 WDC/WCC, victory at Le Mans and Indy… too bad.

[Anderis]

I'd argue that one of the things that held them back last time was only having McLaren. I'd assume that the sensible route would be to have McLaren as the factory effort and try to get Williams as a customer.

The problem is- if you offer factory support, an established team may choose you over a more established engine supplier but if you only offer a customer deal, why would anyone take this over a much safer option like a deal with Mercedes?

[Rumblestrip]

The problem is- if you offer factory support, an established team may choose you over a more established engine supplier but if you only offer a customer deal, why would anyone take this over a much safer option like a deal with Mercedes?

 

Quite true. But if Honda are limited to a single team I can see things going badly again 

[EvilPhil II]

Many many heads rolling at Honda right now

[Primo]

The general F1 landscape might look very different 2026. I think the next new team, or brand, will be Abu Dhabi F1. Will Honda be with them? Why not.

[kumo7]

The general F1 landscape might look very different 2026. I think the next new team, or brand, will be Abu Dhabi F1. Will Honda be with them? Why not.

 

I agree. It should be up to them unless it wants to set up it's own constructor team.

[Clatter]

The problem is- if you offer factory support, an established team may choose you over a more established engine supplier but if you only offer a customer deal, why would anyone take this over a much safer option like a deal with Mercedes?

Price? They could offer a cut price deal.

[PayasYouRace]

Nope. Elsewhere on the board recently I was lamenting what a year 2009 could’ve been: F1 WDC/WCC, victory at Le Mans and Indy… too bad.

Going by what people at Brawn told me at the time, they wouldn’t have won with a Honda engine in that car. They credited much of their success to having a Mercedes in the back.

[juicy sushi]

I think that I could write a really long post about what I think Honda should do and why, but it would be meaningless fantasy.  The reality is that this is a period of very rapid change in the industry, with no clear answers about what to do.  And that includes motorsports but is not limited to motorsports.  Given that, not racing is probably the best choice Honda can make, as until they have a clear idea of what they are going to do, and why, there is no point in throwing money at a racing program that does not align with other corporate activity.  

[kumo7]

I think that I could write a really long post about what I think Honda should do and why, but it would be meaningless fantasy. The reality is that this is a period of very rapid change in the industry, with no clear answers about what to do. And that includes motorsports but is not limited to motorsports. Given that, not racing is probably the best choice Honda can make, as until they have a clear idea of what they are going to do, and why, there is no point in throwing money at a racing program that does not align with other corporate activity.

As a former Honda fan I have to say this.
For the car maker like Honda, racing activities always supports its profile. Not racing make the identity vanished in the air and guys forgets its origin. Nothing is worse that revealing that the company do not know what it should.

Akio Toyota just stepped aside, but he builds peoples car and go racing and rallying. Its profile is much more visible. On the contrary Honda appears to be lost in the middle of nowhere. I will not chose Honda for my car.

 

 

BTW, what is the reason Honda is NOT racing Formula-E? If it wants to expose itself with E-Car, it should. 

Edited by kumo7, 09 February 2023 - 13:02.

[FullThrottleF1]

Initial contact made over possible McLaren-Honda F1 reunion - The Race (the-race.com)

 

Looks like we may have an answer

[AustinF1]

It could make some sense if they were to take on the current Honda PU until the new PU regs kick in. But damn, after the utter shitshow of epic proportions the last time around, I'm guessing it would be pretty difficult for McLaren brass to stomach the thought of relying on Honda in another new PU transition. Utter, years-long clown show, that was.

[Beri]

Going for McLaren will be a knee jerk reaction from Honda of epic proportions. If they have some dignity over there in Japan, I'd stay clear from any street connecting directly to Woking for the remainder of the universes life.
I mean, come on. They were treated so badly by McLaren, rightfully at times, that this is just a pathetic move if Honda even contemplates on getting back together with McLaren.

[Nova]

McLaren Honda have a historic name, before the latest shitshow, would be nice.

[Beri]

Williams Honda as well. Despite everyone remembering the McLaren dominance, let's nit forget that they were dominant, to a lesser extent, with Williams as well before that.

And yes, I might be not that objective on this matter as I'm a Williams fan, but I'd rather see Honda partnering up with Williams than with McLaren. Despite the fact that McLaren have way more facilities and other means available to accommodate factory support by a manufacturer better than Williams can.

[Stephane]

As long as Alonso is miles away, that might work

[kumo7]

Initial contact made over possible McLaren-Honda F1 reunion - The Race (the-race.com)

Looks like we may have an answer

the article is very interesting.
It would make a Honda’s North Pole to succeed with McLaren given the previous project, or else, …
The article Also elaborates that Zak Brown has visited Red Bull technology powertrain company for a possible customer deal. If it were for Setting up it’s own power train company, It would’ve made me astonished.

But now that many car companies, I mean big car building companies, joining the teams as collaborator or intellectual partnership partner, this pass might not be so bad for McLaren, me thinks as layman in this racing motor business. It will keep the stability of the team and it will open the joint business platform for many companies and teams can make much more direct decisions on how to proceed. Kicking off by Purchasing JUDD ????

For Honda, this pass might be interesting. If All what it want is IP business but no construction of the top end PU. Or, It might even give a glimpse of fresh knowledge.

By all means, if mass production road car business moves toward the E-car, The prestigious Sports Car company such as a Ferrari or McLaren, … they would want to have its own ICU. It might be even the criteria for their survival in this business. Like Swiss handmade watch versus smart watch.

Edited by kumo7, 09 February 2023 - 22:45.