51 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

This year's dreary F1 lauch season has got me thinking about what consistutes a change of livery. Most teams seem to have kept something very similar if not the same as last year, but for some, it seems to count as a difference. So what are your thoughts?

 

I tend to be of the opinion that small variations can't be called a new livery. I wouldn't consider Red Bull Racing to have changed their livery at all since 2005, for example, with the notable exceptions of the Honda car in 2021 and the Wings for Life car that Coulthard ran.

 

 

[Stephane]

And even the 05 livery was already an old livery.

Anyways, why liveries have to always be new ans different?

A lot of people moan about drivers changing helmet designs but teams must change livery each year...

People are only received by their own expectations...

[Risil]

What is the difference between option 2 and option 3? I feel like that's where I fall but I need to know which button to click!

[PayasYouRace]

What is the difference between option 2 and option 3? I feel like that's where I fall but I need to know which button to click!

 

I meant option 2 to say "minor". Hope that helps. My spelling and grammer isn't fully warmed up this Sunday.

[PayasYouRace]

And even the 05 livery was already an old livery.

Anyways, why liveries have to always be new ans different?

A lot of people moan about drivers changing helmet designs but teams must change livery each year...

People are only received by their own expectations...

 

Maybe that's a topic for another poll, but first let's define what is different.

[Disgrace]

Brabham in 1983 is a good example. The blue and white were inverted and the result was a very different (improved) livery.

[Risil]

Huh, I prefer the look of the Brabham with blue sides and white text!
 
Were Williams 1998 and 1999 different liveries? Same colours (except for that daring blue highlight at the end of the engine cover) but it's a lot more detailed and maybe cohesive.
 

[Risil]

When I search for 1983 Brabhams on Youtube I see both variants, for whatever reason.

[PlatenGlass]

Can a car keep the same livery from each year to the next for multiple years, but end up completely different like the Ship of Theseus?

[PlatenGlass]

This isn't a question I've ever really considered by the way. I'm not sure it needs an answer. I don't think a binary distinction is required for any of our day-to-day lives.

[Collombin]

When I search for 1983 Brabhams on Youtube I see both variants, for whatever reason.

I'm confused by which one he prefers! It's ambiguous.

[P0inters]

And even the 05 livery was already an old livery.

Anyways, why liveries have to always be new ans different?

A lot of people moan about drivers changing helmet designs but teams must change livery each year...

People are only received by their own expectations...

It's very silly. People will complain when liveries stay the same and then reminisce about iconic liveries like the Marlboro McLarens or the Camel/Canon Williams of the 80s and 90s when a big reason they're so iconic is their longevity.

[Disgrace]

When I search for 1983 Brabhams on Youtube I see both variants, for whatever reason.

 

Yep, they switched mid-season!

[PlatenGlass]

Yep, they switched mid-season!

I don't think most people noticed.

[Sterzo]

Were Williams 1998 and 1999 different liveries? Same colours (except for that daring blue highlight at the end of the engine cover) but it's a lot more detailed and maybe cohesive.

No. You'd hardly notice if it came round on successive laps with the "different" liveries. Much like your wife changing her earrings. It's still the same wife.

[Risil]

Can a car keep the same livery from each year to the next for multiple years, but end up completely different like the Ship of Theseus?

Trigger's broom!

 

[MP418]

It's very silly. People will complain when liveries stay the same and then reminisce about iconic liveries like the Marlboro McLarens or the Camel/Canon Williams of the 80s and 90s when a big reason they're so iconic is their longevity.

I don't find this a contradiction. If a specific livery is striking for people, then don't want it to change. Marlboro McLaren is such an example. The livery was simple yet standing out, and it was easily recognizable while not being flashy. Other liveries are just okay, and every change may makes it a bit more okay (but it's never going to be overwhelming). That's probably why people wish to see changes on "okay" liveries.

A driver's helmet is a different matter as it represents a human. And you don't wish your favourite driver to change his nose, lips and eye color every year. So you identify a lot with what you can see during the races, and that's the helmet livery.

[Beri]

Huh, I prefer the look of the Brabham with blue sides and white text!

Were Williams 1998 and 1999 different liveries? Same colours (except for that daring blue highlight at the end of the engine cover) but it's a lot more detailed and maybe cohesive.

White nose, blue engine cover at the end, white wings. Constitutes as a different livery to me.

Red Bull is a curious case tho. When one sees their first livery and now, there is a distinctive change. Yet year after year of minor tweaks got to this livery. So in effect the livery hasn't changed much from one year to the other. But nearly 20 years of livery show that it has been changed a lot. For the better that is.

[messy]

I think a livery changes when it’s a noticeable departure from the previous one, so for instance Red Bull for me changed between 2015 and 2016 because the effect of the livery was really different with the darker matte, you go back and look at a 2015 race now and the cars look quite weird with their purpley blue. Ferrari only ever change slightly, so I think last year was as close as you get to a livery change, while AlphaTauri have pretty much changed every year despite using the same colour scheme - their 2017-19 scheme as Toro Rosso was so, so perfect though that I’m not surprised they still haven’t hit on anything they really likes as much yet. Alfa Romeo too, same colour scheme but very different effect between 2021 and 2022 cars (from overly white at the front to overly Toyota).

Actually, with Alfa, Haas and AT looking a bit different already this season I think it’s shaping up quite well so far.

[New Britain]

Re Option 4:

 

It has to be a complete change of colours, patterns and sponsors to be a change of livery.

 

It seems odd that a team would not be considered to have changed livery unless it has also changed sponsors.

 

If in the early'90s McLaren were still sponsored by Marlboro but began to paint their cars the historic orange, that would not be considered a change of livery? Ferrari going from Rosso Corsa to BWT pink whilst retaining Shell and Santander would not be a change of livery?

[PayasYouRace]

Re Ferrari, I consider them to have had a few different main liveries. Dark red with black wings, Marlboro red with white wings, and the red and white ones such as in the 1970s, 1993 and 2016, etc.

[Jellyfishcake]

Red Bull 2015 to 2016 was a change in livery for me, it's harder to notice than some because Red Bull is effectively the main sponsor logo along with Total on the car, but it's a design change

 

WIlliams 1998-1999 is half way in between, it's a clear evolution but the original base is still there 

[Risil]

No. You'd hardly notice if it came round on successive laps with the "different" liveries.

This would be an impressive achievement and I'd like to see it happen.

I suppose what's tricky is that we're talking about something more than just cars being distinguishable from each other. But beyond that (and indicating which sponsors have paid for the car and driver) the livery markings move into the realm of aesthetics. How do I know that two folk ballads I've collected in different villages are the same song, when they have different words, a different verse here or there, or maybe the ending has changed? Etc. Substitute your own cultural touchstones as appropriate.

Are those two Williams liveries two ways of expressing the same idea? I think yes. So perhaps they're the same livery.

[PlatenGlass]

Trigger's broom!

https://www.youtube....h?v=56yN2zHtofM

A better example.

[PlatenGlass]

This isn't a question I've ever really considered by the way. I'm not sure it needs an answer. I don't think a binary distinction is required for any of our day-to-day lives.

But anyway, surely it's just a case of where an individual's personal cut-off is. Is there something that's triggered (not his broom) this like the FIA making some rule about livery changes?

[Stephane]

No. You'd hardly notice if it came round on successive laps with the "different" liveries. Much like your wife changing her earrings. It's still the same wife.

 

I don't agree. They are clearly different. Especially when viewed from the front. 

 

You can't clearly not recognize them at the first look.

[JimmyClark]

My definition would be that at first glance it looks obviously different from the previous year. So I would say AT this year is a change of livery, but not a change of the overall livery concept, although I understand those who say it isn't. Red Bull and Williams though look the same livery, although a longer look would spot the new or changed logos.

[noikeee]

This is like asking at which precise second does your hair go from wet to dry when you blow-dry it. Or at what percentage of wetness does a stew become a soup.

When does short term become mid term and when does mid term become long term. At what exact age do you stop being "young"? Do three people constitute a "crowd"? What about four people? Five? Fifty five?

Edited by noikeee, 13 February 2023 - 01:12.

[Anderis]

I've never seen 1998 and 1999 Williams as anywhere near close to the same livery and it really confuses me that some people do, apparently! If you asked me to describe the 1998 in one word, it would be "red" without hesitation, but the 1999 would be "chaotic" or "multi-colour" or that one word in Polish that I don't know how to translate to English accurately. I don't even think they're particularly similar, yet alone the same!

[Dolph]

I've never seen 1998 and 1999 Williams as anywhere near close to the same livery and it really confuses me that some people do, apparently! If you asked me to describe the 1998 in one word, it would be "red" without hesitation, but the 1999 would be "chaotic" or "multi-colour" or that one word in Polish that I don't know how to translate to English accurately. I don't even think they're particularly similar, yet alone the same!

Mostly agreed, except I dont understand what you are on about the Polish part.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I feel like there's 3 Red Bull eras. Gen1 which is the car with stripes(even with Infiniti on the sidepods), Gen2 is the 2015 car, and Gen3 is the 2016-current matte paint car and the Red Bull text no longer has white outline.

[Risil]

Because no stripes? I think 2016 is another good example of a livery that felt different but was actually a very incremental change. Effective design within tight constraints, you might say.

 

The grey highlights on the original 2005 RB1 look quite strange looking back. I feel they're one element too many getting in the way of the whole. Of course that's pretty common in first attempts at anything.

[Sterzo]

This is like asking...  ...at what percentage of wetness does a stew become a soup.

I'm pretty sure if we consulted our European history books, there'd be at least one war started by a dispute over that.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because no stripes? I think 2016 is another good example of a livery that felt different but was actually a very incremental change. Effective design within tight constraints, you might say.

 

The grey highlights on the original 2005 RB1 look quite strange looking back. I feel they're one element too many getting in the way of the whole. Of course that's pretty common in first attempts at anything.

 

Major stripe change + matte finish + change to Red Bull brand is enough for me to say "new balls please". It's always going to be a fundamentally blue car. It's nothing like the Toro Rosso evolutions, but there's enough to divide up the eras.

 

Vs say, Toyota. Their only major change was suit design one year.

[messy]

I agree on the 1998/99 Williams' - same base colour, completely different liveries. I quite liked both of them in truth.

Toyota changed one year to these weird jagged patterns, it wasn't particularly well received and the livery was back to the original version the following year. To say they didn't innovate much is an understatement although I thought their livery, colours and corporate identity was pretty strong, unlike their actual cars on track.

[PayasYouRace]

I wonder how many noticed Force India changing the arrangement of green and orange on their cars between 2010 and 2011?

[SenorSjon]

Talk about horrible liveries...

I agree with Payasyourace that RB's livery actually hasn't changed that much.

The ST/AT had proper livery changes. I still love the bright red/blue one before it was yet another blue/white car.

[Gyan]

It's less the color, more any little design/pattern/shape that makes for a new livery IMO (which often includes slight changes to color schemes as a result). Like how soccer home jerseys are mixed up slightly every year. But this year we don't seem to be even getting subtle changes from the teams without any new sponsors. And it does seem like a standout year in that respect. Even Red Bull, despite their galaxy-sized omnipresent charging bull, used to change a swoop or two or a dabble here and there every season.

[Stephane]

I wonder how many noticed Force India changing the arrangement of green and orange on their cars between 2010 and 2011?

 

Who remembers Force India, anyway ?

[Beri]

Who remembers Force India, anyway ?

 

Was that the team that took over the legendary Spyker team? After they had taken over the indelible Midland outfit that changed Formula One forever?

[Risil]

I liked Force India!

[Clatter]

But anyway, surely it's just a case of where an individual's personal cut-off is. Is there something that's triggered (not his broom) this like the FIA making some rule about livery changes?

 

The rules regarding liveries used to be controlled by Ecclestone and was in the Concorde agreement, I assume this still comes under FOM's control. There was the big fuss when BAR joined and wanted to run 2 cars in different liveries. They ended up with the half and half with the zip up the middle.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The last time we had different liveries within a team was DC*'s retirement race no? Which lasted....either the second or third turn of lap 1.

 

The closest we get is race specific designs, which was allowed in the Bernie Era.

 

 

 

 

*feel like the forum will split into knowing exactly what I'm talking about and having no idea who I'm talking about.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 14 February 2023 - 14:49.

[PayasYouRace]

There are rules in the sporting regulations about livery, about how they must be the same on both cars throughout the season or something. They’ve been around for ages, and potentially included after the BAR fiasco, which was so unfair to the team that had two great looking cars for 1999.

[Frood]

Red Bull had to have special dispensation from the other teams and the FIA to run that charity livery on DC's car at Brazil '08 IIRC. And yes, I think that was the last time a team had two different liveries in a race.

Obviously Kazuki Nakajima didn't agree with the decision.

I think the F2 ruling is that the livery doesn't have to be the same, but must be the same base colour.

Edited by Frood, 14 February 2023 - 14:56.

[Jellyfishcake]

There are rules in the sporting regulations about livery, about how they must be the same on both cars throughout the season or something. They’ve been around for ages, and potentially included after the BAR fiasco, which was so unfair to the team that had two great looking cars for 1999.

 

Speaking of 1999, I quite liked the Stewart approach of one car having a red number and the other a green one, 

 

I think Merc did something more recently too, but then these days the car numbers are usually so obscure most of the time 

[alframsey]

I honestly don't get why people think keeping with regular liveries is a bad thing, for one it is obvious from a brand recognition sense. Its the changes to the car we are excited about surely?

[PayasYouRace]

Personally I like each season to have its own visual signature. I want to be able to look at a photo of the field heading into turn 1 and instantly be able to tell what year it was. If every team has the same colours, year on year, that distinction gets harder, and it just gets boring, especially with 20+ races per year.

Brand recognition isn’t exactly something I can get excited about. I’m not a marketing executive.

That’s not really what I was asking in the OP, but fair enough.

[BRG]

Personally I like each season to have its own visual signature. I want to be able to look at a photo of the field heading into turn 1 and instantly be able to tell what year it was. If every team has the same colours, year on year, that distinction gets harder, and it just gets boring, especially with 20+ races per year.

How you must have suffered over 20 years of Marlboro McLarens!

[PayasYouRace]

How you must have suffered over 20 years of Marlboro McLarens!

Luckily, I started watching F1 in 1996.

But you are (I suspect purposely) missing the point. Teams are welcome to retain a livery, but when most teams do so, it becomes difficult to tell seasons apart. This is especially true when the visual differences in car design are much more subtle.