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* INDYCAR 2023 Indycar Season Opener at St. Pete


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#901 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 March 2023 - 22:39

Yes, we are in the phase of saying "the aeroscreen surely saved his life" several times a year. It's possible that something in the sport did happen that exactly coincided with the introduction of aeroscreen that made the sport 1000% more dangerous such that several drivers each year would die if not for the timely introduction of halo/aeroscreen. However, the more likely explanation is that the benefits of halo/aeroscreen are overstated. Something can both be beneficial and yet have its benefits overstated massively.

Bryan wasn't lucky in that accident. Unless his cockpit collapsed from the impact, there was no trajectory that Barron's car could take that would hit him in the head. Barron would have to be launched in the air and be coming down with just the right timing to clear the front roll bar but not clear Bryan's head.


Bizarre claim given the complete lack of protection ahead of Bryan’s head in those cars. Not sure where you’re getting this front roll bar from either. Single seaters from that era never had them. It was just the top of the monocoque. Just look at the thing.

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#902 jonpollak

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Posted 08 March 2023 - 23:14

More fun with observations with Calum And Armstrong.



#903 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 03:56

Bizarre claim given the complete lack of protection ahead of Bryan’s head in those cars. Not sure where you’re getting this front roll bar from either. Single seaters from that era never had them. It was just the top of the monocoque. Just look at the thing.

The front roll bar wasn't sticking out like the rear roll bar, but it was there, forming a slanted line that driver's head shouldn't cross.  As far as where I'm getting this front roll bar from, I forgot where I first learned of them, but if I'm imagining their existence, then so is Danny Sullivan.

 

Here is the same video, rolled back 20 seconds:

 

https://youtu.be/DRXymgWiRcY?t=110



#904 BRG

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 09:57

I thought we were past this phase of “but the safety feature didn’t actually do anything.”

We seem to be in the phase of "hardly anybody got decapitated so we don't need the glazed halo".  It beggars the imagination that race-fans would want to make the cars more dangerous for their favourite drivers.



#905 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 10:05

The front roll bar wasn't sticking out like the rear roll bar, but it was there, forming a slanted line that driver's head shouldn't cross. As far as where I'm getting this front roll bar from, I forgot where I first learned of them, but if I'm imagining their existence, then so is Danny Sullivan.

Here is the same video, rolled back 20 seconds:

That structure was, by the mid-90s, incorporated into the monocoque. It was to prevent the chassis being crushed over the driver’s waist and legs and provide an opening for escape. That what the slanted line the driver’s head should remain below was for.

Now actually look at the car.

1999hertawin1.jpg

There’s zero protection in front of the driver’s head. Nothing to prevent an object hitting him. In that incident, Bryan was extremely lucky that Barron’s car was launched over his head. Had it hit as a slightly different angle, he could have got a wheel, or other heavy component, straight to the face. A Henry Surtees/Maria de Villota situation.

This is the value of the halo and screen. It eliminates that possibility and doesn’t have to rely on luck.

#906 B Squared

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 10:07

"Bizarre claim given the complete lack of protection ahead of Bryan’s head in those cars. Not sure where you’re getting this front roll bar from either." Payas

 

Maybe a CART rulebook

 

A not so clear scan (due to book format) from my 1991 CART rulebook that illustrates the front rollbar mentioned by D_G. My 1986 rulebook doesn't have this illustration, the 1989 version does. My 1987 and '88 copies are loaned out right now, so I can't tell you the exact year this became a requirement in CART IndyCar construction.

CART-1991-rule-book.jpg



#907 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 10:09

"Bizarre claim given the complete lack of protection ahead of Bryan’s head in those cars. Not sure where you’re getting this front roll bar from either." Payas

Maybe a CART rulebook

A not so clear scan (due to book format) from my 1991 CART rulebook that illustrates the front rollbar mentioned by D_G. My 1986 rulebook doesn't have this illustration, the 1989 version does. My 1987 and '88 copies are loaned out right now, so I can't tell you the exact year this became a requirement in CART IndyCar construction.

Addressed in my reply. As you can see even in the late 80s, the structure was to prevent the front of the chassis from crushing over the driver, and took the form of a bulkhead. It would have no effect in preventing an object from hitting the driver’s head.

#908 B Squared

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 10:17

Well, you were replying at the same time as I, so I never saw your last post with Herta's car. You made the highlighted statements, I was only clarifying D_G's (rightful) claim regarding a roll structure that you said no formula car of the era had.

 

And still, in the 15 years I worked the series with this basic design of car, we never lost anyone in your scenario. 



#909 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 10:38

Well, you were replying at the same time as I, so I never saw your last post with Herta's car. You made the highlighted statements, I was only clarifying D_G's (rightful) claim regarding a roll structure that you said no formula car of the era had.

And still, in the 15 years I worked the series with this basic design of car, we never lost anyone in your scenario.

I’m not having a go. It’s just that a front roll bar and a structural bulkhead are two different things. While they both perform a similar function in a rollover, neither actually had anything to do with driver’s head protection. So D_G’s claim was incorrect from a structural design and design intent point of view.

D_G’s original claim was that the car was designed to launch another over the driver, which is a false conclusion drawn from the outcome of one incident.

Henry Surtees. Maria de Villota. Not in Indycar, but the laws of physics don’t change on the west side of the Atlantic. You can only rely on luck when an obvious danger is present for so long.

Edit: Surely Justin Wilson counts too?

#910 B Squared

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 12:07

My issue with this debate is that these were regarded as state-of-the-art machines when they were designed. The drivers willingly and excitedly tried out their new cars each year and I don't recall any drivers protesting the design, sitting out, striking on a race weekend, or retiring because of these now obvious flaws. The tone seems to be that designers, owners, sponsors and track operators of the era were intentionally neglectful in their work to protect drivers of the 1980s to '90s (when I was involved in CART Indy Car) and that is far removed from truth.



#911 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 12:29

That’s certainly not the case. I’m sure the drivers of the time were very happy with the safety levels they had to deal with, compared with what came before. After all, a 90s CART car is as removed from us as a late roadster was to them. They were not negligent. They were all doing their best.

Things have moved on now. We have the technology and the desire to protect drivers from these unlikely injuries. We’ve learned new things. Now we have evidence that our new design features have helped. We saw a terrifying accident and the driver was OK, with visible evidence that the screen did its job. Yet there are some who would rather take a chance on what might have happened without it.

#912 B Squared

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 12:36

Bruce Walkup at Indianapolis in 1970. Anyone could get on-board.......yet they didn't. Different thoughts at different times. 

 

CKX-4u-TUMAAA7-SI.jpg

 

After Grojean's accident and survival, I have not pushed back about the aeroscreen or halo being part of a modern formula racecar.



#913 Dolph

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 12:39

"Bizarre claim given the complete lack of protection ahead of Bryan’s head in those cars. Not sure where you’re getting this front roll bar from either." Payas

 

Maybe a CART rulebook

 

A not so clear scan (due to book format) from my 1991 CART rulebook that illustrates the front rollbar mentioned by D_G. My 1986 rulebook doesn't have this illustration, the 1989 version does. My 1987 and '88 copies are loaned out right now, so I can't tell you the exact year this became a requirement in CART IndyCar construction.

CART-1991-rule-book.jpg

 

Does anyone know if digitized copies of these rule books exists? Would love to read them.



#914 BRG

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 12:54

My issue with this debate is that these were regarded as state-of-the-art machines when they were designed. The drivers willingly and excitedly tried out their new cars each year and I don't recall any drivers protesting the design, sitting out, striking on a race weekend, or retiring because of these now obvious flaws. The tone seems to be that designers, owners, sponsors and track operators of the era were intentionally neglectful in their work to protect drivers of the 1980s to '90s (when I was involved in CART Indy Car) and that is far removed from truth.

Once upon a time, as you very well know, race cars had no protection at all for the drivers.  The drivers didn't wear crash helmets, or seat belts.  Cars were far more flammable.  There were minimal safety features at race venues, and no medical or emergency response capabilities either.  It was all hugely more dangerous to life and limb and the statistics bear that out tragically.  

 

So, how far back do you want to turn the clock?



#915 B Squared

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 14:04

I never said I did. I merely pointed out the differences of the times, people weren't intentionally trying to kill race drivers.

#916 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 14:06

I never said I did. I merely pointed out the differences of the times, people weren't intentionally trying to kill race drivers.


Nobody suggested otherwise.

#917 red stick

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 14:16

A blast from the past.  Roger Warrick's cartoon illustrating this week's Marshall Pruett TWII podcast.

 

TWIIC23_LongBeach20_SM9g82q.jpg

 

L to R:  Montoya, R. Gordon, Franchitti, Kanaan, Barron, Herta, others.


Edited by red stick, 09 March 2023 - 14:24.


#918 paulb

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 15:24

lol, that's fantastic!

 

off course marshall and the names of the corner workers.



#919 FLB

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 15:28

I was very partial to the livery on Robby Gordon's car in 1999  :love:



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#920 juicy sushi

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 15:51

And still, in the 15 years I worked the series with this basic design of car, we never lost anyone in your scenario. 

Quite true, but also, not something we can put down as being due to the cars being safe enough vs luck.  We've never had 2 cars collide on the front straight at Indy with one getting airborn into the pitlane, rather than the fence on the outside.  If we did, the scale of the accident could be catastrophic.  Is that due to luck, or are current track safety standards enough?  Accidents are thankfully rare enough that we can only conjecture on this stuff as the sample size is so small things are not easily predictable.  I think that we have seen a few unusual accidents in the last couple of years that justified the aeroscreen.  I think that they were not normal events, and we were lucky that they took place after the changes were made.  That doesn't mean they will happen frequently.  It just means that in this corner of the multiverse, the crashes happened after we already had a solution in place.  In another timeline, they never happened.  And in a third, they might have all happened in 2018.  Such is the nature of the cosmos.

 

But I do think that the specific accident that Pedersen had would have been much, much grislier without the aeroscreen.  And Herta's incident could have be much worse if he were driving that year's Lola rather than the Reynard, as I recall.



#921 djparky

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 17:24

More fun with observations with Calum And Armstrong.
https://www.youtube....h?v=Ykl_WKeyu9Y


Yeah watched it earlier...

#922 GlenWatkins

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 17:42

lol, that's fantastic!

 

off course marshall and the names of the corner workers.

of course marshall not off course marshall.  pun intended of course!


Edited by GlenWatkins, 09 March 2023 - 17:43.


#923 Risil

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 17:49

Just caught up with the race. Amazing! First time I've ever heard of a driver lose a race owing to a "plenum event".



#924 jonpollak

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 18:28

Yeah watched it earlier...

They really have a great rapport.

And we learn ALOTT from these two in their observations as €uropeans about Indycar.

 

Jp



#925 jonpollak

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 18:29

Just caught up with the race. Amazing! First time I've ever heard of a driver lose a race owing to a "plenum event".

To me, Plenum Event sound like a heart problem.

Jp



#926 djparky

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 19:59

They really have a great rapport.
And we learn ALOTT from these two in their observations as €uropeans about Indycar.

Jp


Illott has been on Screaming Meals( Armstrong's other podcast) a couple of times and they were house mates at Fiorano. But yeah I like the different observations they bring to Indy Car.

#927 jonpollak

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 21:46

Scotty Mac dealing with Hayters.
https://twitter.com/...2294808578?s=46

Jp

#928 GlenWatkins

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 22:33

Just caught up with the race. Amazing! First time I've ever heard of a driver lose a race owing to a "plenum event".

 

This article sums up pretty well what happened:  https://us.motorspor...e-win/10441457/



#929 Peat

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 22:42

Scotty Mac dealing with Hayters

Jp


I'm more of a Mountfield man, myself.

#930 jonpollak

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 00:53

My wife bought one on the advise of Crouchy’s wife.

Jp

#931 DS27

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 17:27

Scotty Mac dealing with Hayters.
https://twitter.com/...2294808578?s=46

Jp

 

 

Funny watching that, as it's how I imagine Pederson is while in the car   :lol:



#932 jonpollak

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 12:30

Full Race.

 

Jp



#933 FLB

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 12:38

Kirkwood/Harvey at St.Pete, from another angle:

 

LT sur Twitter : "Kirkwood/Harvey crash @GPSTPETE #firestoneGP @IndyCar https://t.co/OuCNY5vWwM" / Twitter



#934 paulb

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 13:21

Ahem, https://the-race.com...than-it-looked/

#935 Muppetmad

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 15:32

Chadwick seems very realistic about all this, and she deserves ample time to get up to speed. I'm glad she mentioned W Series hadn't given her much track time: therein lies the series' critical flaw.



#936 Afterburner

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Posted 23 March 2023 - 16:14

Was prompted by the race organizers with a survey on what they could do to improve the fan experience. I suggested they go back to the 80’s layout to include more GA areas where you can sit in the shade and add an overtaking area. Failing that, they should move the video board from the north entrance to Pioneer Park so people “camping” there can actually get an idea of WTF is going on…



#937 LolaB0860

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Posted 23 March 2023 - 20:14

Was prompted by the race organizers with a survey on what they could do to improve the fan experience. I suggested they go back to the 80’s layout to include more GA areas where you can sit in the shade and add an overtaking area. Failing that, they should move the video board from the north entrance to Pioneer Park so people “camping” there can actually get an idea of WTF is going on…

 

Is this survey online somewhere?