2047 replies to this topic

[Clatter]

So that wasn’t my example, which was disqualifying Renault and redistributing the points. There a no legal framework or justification to annul the race. I don’t know why you say there’s no prospect that they do this, when it’s the most likely outcome of any action was taken.

Went wouldn't they just do the same as they did with Schumacher in 97?

[Sterzo]

It's becoming more preposterous the longer this continues.

Preposterous, preposterouser, preposterousest. The FIA should give Massa the honourary title of "World Preposterousness Champion".

[PayasYouRace]

Went wouldn't they just do the same as they did with Schumacher in 97?

Usually when a team is disqualified from a race the results are shuffled up. I’d be happy for any examples to the contrary.

The Schumacher ‘97 case is a bit different, but I’m not saying it can’t be argued to be relevant.

[PlatenGlass]

Usually when a team is disqualified from a race the results are shuffled up. I’d be happy for any examples to the contrary.

The Schumacher ‘97 case is a bit different, but I’m not saying it can’t be argued to be relevant.

 

Brazil 1983 is an example to the contrary. Rosberg was disqualified from 2nd but no-one moved up.

[PayasYouRace]

Brazil 1983 is an example to the contrary. Rosberg was disqualified from 2nd but no-one moved up.

Was there any explanation as to why?

[ensign14]

No - the whole thing was mysterious because it cost Alain Prost a point, so it could have had an effect on the overall title.  I just recall that, at the time, the positions were simply voided (there were two others DQ'd as well but outside the point).

[PlatenGlass]

Dunno.

Edit - beaten by Ensign.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 09 October 2024 - 12:51.

[F1 Mike]

Preposterous, preposterouser, preposterousest. The FIA should give Massa the honourary title of "World Preposterousness Champion".

I was trying to think of a more suitable word for a good few minutes. I think it's the best available without a long list of swearing.
Every description of the word by dictionary is perfect for what Massa is doing.

[Beri]

No winner to the Tour de France's were named after Armstrong got the victories removed from his name. So its not uncommon in sports to just scrap a result without the following athlete automatically taking the disqualified's place.

[lustigson]

No winner to the Tour de France's were named after Armstrong got the victories removed from his name. So its not uncommon in sports to just scrap a result without the following athlete automatically taking the disqualified's place.

 

OT, but I vaguely remember an article describing how most top-10 finishers in the Armstrong years were either caught or later admitted to doping, so some relatively unknown Italian named Daniel Nardello basically won 3 or 4 of those Tours. 

[Clatter]

Usually when a team is disqualified from a race the results are shuffled up. I’d be happy for any examples to the contrary.

The Schumacher ‘97 case is a bit different, but I’m not saying it can’t be argued to be relevant.

There's no precedent of DQing 15 years after the event, so they can pretty much do what they want. Going the schumacher route means the results don't change.

[New Britain]

No winner to the Tour de France's were named after Armstrong got the victories removed from his name. So its not uncommon in sports to just scrap a result without the following athlete automatically taking the disqualified's place.

The 1999-2005 TdF is not really analogous, as many of the other top riders, not to mention their supporting teammates, were also illegally doping, and it was not possible in retrospect to know who had been riding clean.

In the case of Singapore GP, apart from Renault, all the teams and drivers raced within the rules and therefore were eligible for the final classification.

[PayasYouRace]

There's no precedent of DQing 15 years after the event, so they can pretty much do what they want. Going the schumacher route means the results don't change.

That sounds like the easiest route, but how would it be implemented to a race result? Schumacher kept his points and results but everyone shuffled up the WDC table. Frentzen was second, Coulthard third, etc.

So really, I’m not understanding how you could do the Schumacher route without everyone being shuffled up.

In fact, not that I’ve made this comparison the Schumacher disqualification makes perfect sense. When you’re disqualified from a race you keep your finish time; you’re just not included in the final results. Everyone else moved up (Brazil 1983 excepted). So it was for Michael and the 1997 WDC.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Also, Hamilton/McLaren were nothing to do with the scandal, so it would be harsh to penalise them in any way.

[loki0420]

 

If you reverse the stewards decision and have Ham P1, Massa P2, and then annul Singapore he is champion, so again I guess he’d take that offer.

Thats not correct.

[DJH63]

Thats not correct.

Final scores:

 

Ham 98

Mas 97

 

Take off 8 for Singapore for Ham and 0 for Massa = 90 v 97.

 

Move Ham from 3rd to 1st in Belgium and it becomes 94 v 97,

 

Move Massa 1st to 2nd and it becomes a final score of 94 v 95.

[loki0420]

Final scores:

 

Ham 98

Mas 97

 

Take off 8 for Singapore for Ham and 0 for Massa = 90 v 97.

 

Move Ham from 3rd to 1st in Belgium and it becomes 94 v 97,

 

Move Massa 1st to 2nd and it becomes a final score of 94 v 95.

Ham was 3rd in Singapore

[George Costanza]

That sounds like the easiest route, but how would it be implemented to a race result? Schumacher kept his points and results but everyone shuffled up the WDC table. Frentzen was second, Coulthard third, etc.

So really, I’m not understanding how you could do the Schumacher route without everyone being shuffled up.

In fact, not that I’ve made this comparison the Schumacher disqualification makes perfect sense. When you’re disqualified from a race you keep your finish time; you’re just not included in the final results. Everyone else moved up (Brazil 1983 excepted). So it was for Michael and the 1997 WDC.

Regarding Jerez of 1997, I think the Ferrari was just slower overall on the race pace..it was clear Jacques was going to catch him regardless.

Then you add McLaren into the mix, I don't believe Ferrari would have won.

Edited by George Costanza, 09 October 2024 - 16:23.

[cjm321190]

The thing with Massa it was his engine blowing in Hungary that did it.

The pit issue in Singapore stops that from counting in my opinion. If he had a clean race and then got screwed then i would understand.

[PayasYouRace]

Regarding Jerez of 1997, I think the Ferrari was just slower overall on the race pace..it was clear Jacques was going to catch him regardless.

Then you add McLaren into the mix, I don't believe Ferrari would have won.

 

Not sure that has anything to do with the crash and the subsequent punishment.

[piszkosfred]

The 1999-2005 TdF is not really analogous, as many of the other top riders, not to mention their supporting teammates, were also illegally doping, and it was not possible in retrospect to know who had been riding clean.

In the case of Singapore GP, apart from Renault, all the teams and drivers raced within the rules and therefore were eligible for the final classification.

From about 1993, no one finished in the TdF (or Giro, Vuelta, LBL, etc...) in the top 20 without being doped.

Edited by piszkosfred, 09 October 2024 - 17:41.

[New Britain]

From about 1993, no one finished in the TdF (or Giro, Vuelta, LBL, etc...) in the top 20 without being doped.

Quite possibly, and that is why the Tour organisers thought it made no sense to promote to higher finishing positions the riders whose only virtue was that they had not been caught yet.

 

Singapore 2008 was, for practical purposes, a perfectly normal race. Car crashes causing a Safety Car - normal. Some cars take the opportunity to pit - normal. All cars are going to have to pit at some point - normal.

The only thing that was abnormal was that Felipe Massa's team forked up his pit-stop. Whose fault was that?

 

Massa is suing the wrong counter-party: he should be suing Ferrari.

[PayasYouRace]

Quite possibly, and that is why the Tour organisers thought it made no sense to promote to higher finishing positions the riders whose only virtue was that they had not been caught yet.

Singapore 2008 was, for practical purposes, a perfectly normal race. Car crashes causing a Safety Car - normal. Some cars take the opportunity to pit - normal. All cars are going to have to pit at some point - normal.
The only thing that was abnormal was that Felipe Massa's team forked up his pit-stop. Whose fault was that?

Massa is suing the wrong counter-party: he should be suing Ferrari.

That sort of gets at the point made many times in this thread. There’s no grounds for annulling the race because the race was run according to the rules.

[New Britain]

That sort of gets at the point made many times in this thread. There’s no grounds for annulling the race because the race was run according to the rules.

Yes, and Felipe Massa's whining and crying like a little boy who's just dropped his ice cream cone on the ground is sadly diminishing whatever respect motor racing fans ever had for him. A quixotic exercise in futility is one thing, but if at the same time you make yourself look like a complete ass, you don't need a good lawyer, you need a good psychotherapist.

[F1 Mike]

I listened today to an episode of Marc Priestley's podcast featuring Rob Smedley, and his recollections of the Brazil round in 2008 painted a picture of how Massa should have been forever remembered.
I'm really disappointed Felipe has now tarnished it beyond recognition.

[7MGTEsup]

The only winners here are the lawyers.

[Radion]

Massa spun out of a podium position in Malaysia in 2008.

Massa's engine blew up while leading in Hungary in 2008.

 

Ultimately, it was in Ferrari's/Massa's hands to win the championship taht year, they failed, nobody else. Let crashgate go already.

[pdac]

The only winners here are the lawyers.

 

Always the case. It's always cheaper just to go with binding arbitration in any dispute.

[ensign14]

The only winners here are the lawyers.

[rodlamas]

Massa spun out of a podium position in Malaysia in 2008.

Massa's engine blew up while leading in Hungary in 2008.

 

Ultimately, it was in Ferrari's/Massa's hands to win the championship taht year, they failed, nobody else. Let crashgate go already.

Additonally, had Ferrari not botched the pitstop on the crashgate race he would have probably finished 3rd, ahead of Hamilton, and would have scored 1 point more than him on that race instead of 6 less.

[George Costanza]

Not sure that has anything to do with the crash and the subsequent punishment.

It is lot to do with it... If Ferrari were faster than Williams, there would be no need for what Michael did.

[MikeTekRacing]

Massa spun out of a podium position in Malaysia in 2008.

Massa's engine blew up while leading in Hungary in 2008.

 

Ultimately, it was in Ferrari's/Massa's hands to win the championship taht year, they failed, nobody else. Let crashgate go already.

i mean that's true for all the tiles.

Yet after 2021 the outrage from some on this forum.....

 

double standards? (not saying from you)

 

I think 2008 is done and dusted, any driver winning it was fair, Lewis came out on top and we should stop trying to rewrite history

[PayasYouRace]

It is lot to do with it... If Ferrari were faster than Williams, there would be no need for what Michael did.

 

Well OK, yes, if Ferrari were faster, Michael wouldn't have been caught by Jacques in the last phase of the race. But that's trivial to point out and doesn't mean anything.

 

And the point I was making was that when Schumacher was disqualified from the championship, everyone else moved up a place. So it fits with the usual standard of race disqualifications where everyone else moves up to fill the gaps too. So if Renault were retrospectively disqualified from Singapore (and/or other races that year), then you'd expect the rest of the drivers to be moved up a place too.

[Brackets]

It is lot to do with it... If Ferrari were faster than Williams, there would be no need for what Michael did.

 

As if there was a need to do what he did with a slower Ferrari.

[SenorSjon]

From about 1993, no one finished in the TdF (or Giro, Vuelta, LBL, etc...) in the top 20 without being doped.

 

Just like motorracing had 125, 250 and 500 cc, you probably had similar classes with the amount of dope used per round in cycling.

[George Costanza]

Well OK, yes, if Ferrari were faster, Michael wouldn't have been caught by Jacques in the last phase of the race. But that's trivial to point out and doesn't mean anything.

And the point I was making was that when Schumacher was disqualified from the championship, everyone else moved up a place. So it fits with the usual standard of race disqualifications where everyone else moves up to fill the gaps too. So if Renault were retrospectively disqualified from Singapore (and/or other races that year), then you'd expect the rest of the drivers to be moved up a place too.

I agree 100 percent on your second paragraph though.

[Clatter]

That sounds like the easiest route, but how would it be implemented to a race result? Schumacher kept his points and results but everyone shuffled up the WDC table. Frentzen was second, Coulthard third, etc.

So really, I’m not understanding how you could do the Schumacher route without everyone being shuffled up.

In fact, not that I’ve made this comparison the Schumacher disqualification makes perfect sense. When you’re disqualified from a race you keep your finish time; you’re just not included in the final results. Everyone else moved up (Brazil 1983 excepted). So it was for Michael and the 1997 WDC.

 

That's not correct. When a driver is DQd from a race the others don't just get shuffled up, the points are also adjusted to their new finish position. When Schumacher was DQ'd they didn't shuffle everyone up on a race by race basis and change the score, they simple moved everyone up in the final standing.

[DW46]

That's not correct. When a driver is DQd from a race the others don't just get shuffled up, the points are also adjusted to their new finish position. When Schumacher was DQ'd they didn't shuffle everyone up on a race by race basis and change the score, they simple moved everyone up in the final standing.

Fab, DQ Piquet Jr and rejig the standings, jobs a good un.

[PayasYouRace]

That's not correct. When a driver is DQd from a race the others don't just get shuffled up, the points are also adjusted to their new finish position. When Schumacher was DQ'd they didn't shuffle everyone up on a race by race basis and change the score, they simple moved everyone up in the final standing.

 

No I'm right. He wasn't disqualified from each and every race. He was disqualified from the championship and the championship only. The nature of the championship results as a result of that disqualification was perfectly analogous to when a driver is disqualified from a race. Everyone else moves up to fill the gap with everything that it entails. So where a driver disqualified from a race keeps their finishing time, and everyone else keeps their finishing times but their position improves by one, in the 1997 standings, Schumacher kept his points but lost his position and everyone else kept their points and gained a position.

 

And honestly until I realised, this, the nature of his disqualification didn't make that much sense. Now it does because it's the perfect equivalent to a race disqualification.

[Clatter]

No I'm right. He wasn't disqualified from each and every race. He was disqualified from the championship and the championship only. The nature of the championship results as a result of that disqualification was perfectly analogous to when a driver is disqualified from a race. Everyone else moves up to fill the gap with everything that it entails. So where a driver disqualified from a race keeps their finishing time, and everyone else keeps their finishing times but their position improves by one, in the 1997 standings, Schumacher kept his points but lost his position and everyone else kept their points and gained a position.

 

And honestly until I realised, this, the nature of his disqualification didn't make that much sense. Now it does because it's the perfect equivalent to a race disqualification.

 

OK, I see what you mean now. And this is why I suggested all the FIA needs to do is DQ Renault from the championship. Massa won't be happy though, as he is pinning all his hopes on annulling one race, and there really is no precedence, or reason to do that.

[Sterzo]

OK, I see what you mean now. And this is why I suggested all the FIA needs to do is DQ Renault from the championship. Massa won't be happy though, as he is pinning all his hopes on annulling one race, and there really is no precedence, or reason to do that.

In fact, picking a nit, he is pinning his hopes on a court ruling that the FIA should have annulled the race at the time, rather than on having it anulled now.

[Clatter]

In fact, picking a nit, he is pinning his hopes on a court ruling that the FIA should have annulled the race at the time, rather than on having it anulled now.

Still no presedence for that. The race itself was run correctly, Renault being DQd is the least that should have happened. He really is being a fool, and as the saying goes, a fool and his money are easily parted.

Edited by Clatter, 12 October 2024 - 15:08.

[BRG]

I can't find any sort of update on this story since October.  Anyone know what is happening?

[Larunss]

I can't find any sort of update on this story since October. Anyone know what is happening?

Felipe probably received invoice for the legal services and now has second thoughts

I remember an article from October with Massa hoping for a quick resolution to the legal proceesings. Still thoroughly convinced he deserves compensation for not being recognised as the rightful 2008 WDC. Same old delusional stuff.

[Marklar]

I can't find any sort of update on this story since October. Anyone know what is happening?

knowing how the courts work there wont be any meaningful news for years

[Autodromo]

Massa is working with Checo's father to root out the liars.  We will get the list any day.

[midgrid]

Autosport throwing some shade at Massa:

[Risil]

Ha ha ha good spot