142 replies to this topic

[YamahaV10]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now. This has implications for the sport. What Ferrari , Mercedes and McLaren would do to know those secrets now. 

 

What did Mr. Stroll pay to get Dan Fallows? Lets say he's making 3-4 million dollars a year and it goes against the cost cap. Sure. He has probably settled into his new role at Aston Martin. But what if Ferrari or McLaren offered him 10 or 20 million ? And they could structure it like a signing bonus and not count it under the cost cap or something. It would be worth it for them. McLaren is sitting at rock bottom with millions worth of problems to sort out. They have sponsors that want to see results. As does Ferrari. It would be worth it for them to just head hunt with big checks. 

 

Even under the cost cap, they could halt all development and just save all the money to sign Fallows. Pay him 20-30 million of the cap in one year. Then give him a normal salary the year after. What are the rules in this regard ?

 

Adrien Newey was offered movie star money (his words) from Ferrari. But this was before these new regs and the cost cap. The previous era of Mercedes domination was thought to be more about the engines than the aero. Now there is a few major teams on the back foot with tricky new regulations. And just a handful of engineers that know how to make it work.

[Beri]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now. This has implications for the sport. What Ferrari , Mercedes and McLaren would do to know those secrets now. 

 

What did Mr. Stroll pay to get Dan Fallows? Lets say he's making 3-4 million dollars a year and it goes against the cost cap. Sure. He has probably settled into his new role at Aston Martin. But what if Ferrari or McLaren offered him 10 or 20 million ? And they could structure it like a signing bonus and not count it under the cost cap or something. It would be worth it for them. McLaren is sitting at rock bottom with millions worth of problems to sort out. They have sponsors that want to see results. As does Ferrari. It would be worth it for them to just head hunt with big checks. 

 

Even under the cost cap, they could halt all development and just save all the money to sign Fallows. Pay him 20-30 million of the cap in one year. Then give him a normal salary the year after. What are the rules in this regard ?

 

Adrien Newey was offered movie star money (his words) from Ferrari. But this was before these new regs and the cost cap. The previous era of Mercedes domination was thought to be more about the engines than the aero. Now there is a few major teams on the back foot with tricky new regulations. And just a handful of engineers that know how to make it work.

 

Now that is a stretch to entitle all the credits to Fallows who started on the 2nd of April last year. The Red Bull esque solution, that debuted in Spain last year, was already in development when he joined.

[Clatter]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

[as65p]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

When the wrong team / driver has an advantage, everything about F1 becomes questionable and needs to be changed ASAP!

[Anderis]

If you ask me, I would facilitate head hunting even more by reducing the number of staff excluded from budget cap from 3 to 1, to spread out the engineering talent among teams even more.

[Beri]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

 

Barnard from McLaren to Ferrari

Murray from Brabham to McLaren

Newey from March to Williams to McLaren to Red Bull Racing

[YamahaV10]

Now that is a stretch to entitle all the credits to Fallows who started on the 2nd of April last year. The Red Bull esque solution, that debuted in Spain last year, was already in development when he joined.

 

The trappings of it were with the sidepods. But the real stuff is the underfloor and suspension.

[YamahaV10]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

 

It has. But I think there's a unique set of circumstances right now. I hope Ferrari and or McLaren make Fallows an offer he cant refuse.

[Beri]

It has. But I think there's a unique set of circumstances right now. I hope Ferrari and or McLaren make Fallows an offer he cant refuse.

 

You are handing Fallows way too much credit. The entire team of Aston Martin has doubled in size. I rather believe it is due to this investment that Aston Martin finds itself on the right end of the scale at the moment. Not due to the arrival of just one man. Paddy Lowe has shown that one man cant carry a (failing) team.

[Beamer]

Is engineer head hunting going to get out of control?

No

[Clatter]

It has. But I think there's a unique set of circumstances right now. I hope Ferrari and or McLaren make Fallows an offer he cant refuse.

 

The most unique thing about the current situation is that can't offer stupidly high salaries to all and sundry, without affecting the budget available for the car.

[AustinF1]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

Yep. It didn't just begin with Stroll. F1 has a long tradition of the big teams poaching engineering talent from the smaller teams, and even hiding it. But now that a smaller team has made it work, then 'surely something must be done about it' lol.

[pacificquay]

Answer to the OP is no.

 

All this would be made much more fun by introducing a rule that the blueprints of the championship winning car each year must be made available to all other teams the day after the last race

[Sterzo]

Head hunting has always been a thing, whether it's for the best engineers, or the best drivers. I don't see it as anything to worry about, unless it's your team losing someone.

Ernest Henry from Peugeot to Ballot. Vittorio Jano from Fiat to Alfa Romeo. Alfieri Maserati from Bianchi to Maserati. Ferdinand Porsche from Mercedes Benz to Auto Union.
 

 

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now.

And yes, we all know Dan Fallows has been the key to Red Bull's dominance. Nothing to do with that Newey guy.

 

Of course he's taken knowledge as well as skills with him, but you claim he stole intellectual property, i.e. drawings? What a hopelessly sloppy argument.

Edited by Sterzo, 07 March 2023 - 20:21.

[PayasYouRace]

Nothing new here. SQEP (Suituably Qualified and Experienced Personnel) are always in demand in any industry. In one as competitive as F1, that's just more noticeable.

 

The OP has got it wrong right from the start. Case in point.

 

 Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now.

 

This applies to any SQEP, at any team, throughout the history of motor racing. You get good people in your team, and your team does well. You're making an assumption that there's a natural pecking order in F1, so if something changes, it must be something wrong. No, all it is is that a team has done a good job.

 

Obviously, all the improvement at Jordan Aston Martin isn't down to one man. This is a team with a long history of using good people effectively. Now they just have a bit more money to make things work.

 

It has. But I think there's a unique set of circumstances right now. I hope Ferrari and or McLaren make Fallows an offer he cant refuse.

 

Because you think Ferrari or McLaren deserve to be winning instead of Aston Martin. This is stupid. Why should either of these teams make one man a crazy offer? Sure, he might take them up on it, because that's how the job market works.

[PayasYouRace]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success.

 

And no. Hiring an experienced individual is not buying intellectual property.

[jwill189]

If there is one good thing about the cost cap, it is that it has prevented the top teams from securing all of their talent. I think the rule is that the top 3 highest paid members are exempt from the cost cap? A top team could have 10 gifted engineers and potentially lose 7 of them to other teams due to money.

Edited by jwill189, 07 March 2023 - 20:24.

[YamahaV10]

Answer to the OP is no.

 

All this would be made much more fun by introducing a rule that the blueprints of the championship winning car each year must be made available to all other teams the day after the last race

 

Good idea

[loki]

Also, Dude, is “headhunter” the preferred nomenclature?…

[RacingGreen]

It has. But I think there's a unique set of circumstances right now. I hope Ferrari and or McLaren make Fallows an offer he cant refuse.

 

Yes but the phrase "I'll make you an offer I can't afford" doesn't have much of a ring to it does it as presumably they all already have nominated key staff, one of whom would have to then fall into the salary cap rules.

 

 

Answer to the OP is no.

 

All this would be made much more fun by introducing a rule that the blueprints of the championship winning car each year must be made available to all other teams the day after the last race

 

Publishing intellectual property is a horrible idea and a move closer to a spec series.

[alframsey]

It’s crazy how people jut put all his success on Fallows, as if the Aston is actual a legit copy of Red Bull. It’s a completely different car to my eyes, different fw and very different side pods.

People forgetting just and saying it’s a red bull copy based on last year is just lazy.

[FirstnameLastname]

If fallows came up with the concepts, it’s not realistic for him to ‘forget’ what he knows. The same as Redbull won’t forget anything they know about the Honda engine

That’s why teams pinch folk… and preferably from successful teams.

[PayasYouRace]

Also, Dude, is “headhunter” the preferred nomenclature?…

 

What alternative do you suggest?

[FirstnameLastname]

What alternative do you suggest?

Finderthem

[PayasYouRace]

Finderthem

 

Is that German?

[FNG]

This is nothing new. Is this outrage from salty Merc fans being beat buy a mid pack team ( not this year it seems)?

 

I'm confused at the talk about this all of a sudden. Teams poach talent and drivers. Been happening for decades

[revmeister]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now. This has implications for the sport. What Ferrari , Mercedes and McLaren would do to know those secrets now. 

 

What did Mr. Stroll pay to get Dan Fallows? Lets say he's making 3-4 million dollars a year and it goes against the cost cap. Sure. He has probably settled into his new role at Aston Martin. But what if Ferrari or McLaren offered him 10 or 20 million ? And they could structure it like a signing bonus and not count it under the cost cap or something. It would be worth it for them. McLaren is sitting at rock bottom with millions worth of problems to sort out. They have sponsors that want to see results. As does Ferrari. It would be worth it for them to just head hunt with big checks. 

 

Even under the cost cap, they could halt all development and just save all the money to sign Fallows. Pay him 20-30 million of the cap in one year. Then give him a normal salary the year after. What are the rules in this regard ?

 

Adrien Newey was offered movie star money (his words) from Ferrari. But this was before these new regs and the cost cap. The previous era of Mercedes domination was thought to be more about the engines than the aero. Now there is a few major teams on the back foot with tricky new regulations. And just a handful of engineers that know how to make it work.

Weren't you in the AM tech thread earlier, suggesting that the car was illegal somehow? And now they have somehow unfairly bought their way up to 3rd place? Perhaps you just would have preferred that Alpine had made the jump...

[vlado]

Didn’t RBR and AM go to court over Fallows? I think they knew what they were giving up and it’s also why Marko said there were 3 Red Bulls on podium last Sunday lol

Horner on Aston Martin:

"They say that imitation is the greatest form of flattery and it's a good thing that the old car works so well. Based on the result of the race, they are the second strongest team."

Uhh.

You know, it must be very hard to run a Formula 1 team in England because you have too many teams competing for the same pool of top engineers, and currently most of them seem to prefer working in Milton Keynes, Brackley, and now Silverstone, which then leaves Enstone, Grove, and most notably Woking, with less to work with.. at least that's my assessment based on results.

What I'm saying is that McLaren should've gone for Dan Fallows!

At least in Italy you only have one major player and two smaller teams so its a bit easier, I guess. There is also Ducati and Aprilia MotoGP programs but not sure how much those skills cross over to F1 and vice versa.

Any input on my theory from someone who is more familiar with the matter?

Edited by vlado, 07 March 2023 - 21:56.

[vlado]

This is nothing new. Is this outrage from salty Merc fans being beat buy a mid pack team ( not this year it seems)?

I'm confused at the talk about this all of a sudden. Teams poach talent and drivers. Been happening for decades

Doesn’t Toto own a share in Aston Martin? You would think if that’s he case the “secrets” should start to flow toward Mercedes soon enough..

[YamahaV10]

And no. Hiring an experienced individual is not buying intellectual property.

It was a metaphorical statement. And there was a court battle over Fallows. 

 

Im not even saying its a problem. It just wouldn't surprise me to see him on a new team at the end of next year. 

[JL14]

Oh no! Aston Martin took one guy from Red Bull and it's not fair they could therefore design a Red Bull clone!  (I think the car looks vastly different anyway)

In the mean time, last year Red Bull made to almost the entire Mercedes Engine team offers of at least twice what Mercedes was paying.

[PayasYouRace]

It was a metaphorical statement. And there was a court battle over Fallows. 

 

Im not even saying its a problem. It just wouldn't surprise me to see him on a new team at the end of next year. 

 

That's never happened before in F1 history? This happens when good quality individuals are in demand.

[flyboym3]

Crazy thread.

[YamahaV10]

Weren't you in the AM tech thread earlier, suggesting that the car was illegal somehow? And now they have somehow unfairly bought their way up to 3rd place? Perhaps you just would have preferred that Alpine had made the jump...

 

All I said was I hope its legal. AM is an aggressive team. I dont think its unfair. It will just get more nasty will big offers and more court battles over guys like Fallows. Just watch.

Edited by YamahaV10, 07 March 2023 - 22:10.

[YamahaV10]

Oh no! Aston Martin took one guy from Red Bull and it's not fair they could therefore design a Red Bull clone!  (I think the car looks vastly different anyway)

In the mean time, last year Red Bull made to almost the entire Mercedes Engine team offers of at least twice what Mercedes was paying.

 

Ppl talk like AM is spending the big bucks and that's why they are fast. It aint just about Fallows. As if teams spending big bucks equals instant success. Nothing is less true historically. See Toyota 

 

Im glad someone managed to do it. I just hope Fallows gets hired by a few other teams so we can have a good title fight. Ferrari and Alpine dropped the ball. They should have offered him the big bucks. Now they have to do it the hard way. Unless there's someone else like him around.

[P123]

Doesn’t Toto own a share in Aston Martin? You would think if that’s he case the “secrets” should start to flow toward Mercedes soon enough..

 

He doesn't own a share in the F1 team.  But him and the rest of Merc know that the Aston has the same engine, gearbox and rear suspension as them, so perhaps narrows down where they need to look for more performance.

 

As for the OP of the topic, Fallows was a headline signing, but AM have signed hundreds more, as well as adding Alonso to the mix.  And they have always been a team that have delivered above their means throughout their various periods of history from Jordan onwards.  It's a bit like Merc of 2013, where they started building the team up to the level of the RRA, and kicked on from there.  Alonso and Stroll will be hoping for something similar.

[dissident]

It’s crazy how people jut put all his success on Fallows, as if the Aston is actual a legit copy of Red Bull. It’s a completely different car to my eyes, different fw and very different side pods.

People forgetting just and saying it’s a red bull copy based on last year is just lazy.

 

Yeah, last year's car was a Red Bull copy (and not a great one, clearly) but this year's car is actually somewhat unique, far from a "clone".

[P123]

All I said was I hope its legal. AM is an aggressive team. I dont think its unfair. It will just get more nasty will big offers and more court battles over guys like Fallows. Just watch.

 

But it's nothing new.   Even Newey was coaxed away from McLaren to Red Bull for a sizeable sum.  And people have posted previous example of movement of technical directors between teams.  Red Bull themselves have been on a hiring spree for their new engine division.  It's just how the market is.  Marko was getting a little snotty in Bahrain about Red Bull people being poached, but his own team and the rest do the same.

[FNG]

Seemed to be a lot of shade thrown at AM and it's just Fallows ripping off a design. This design, no matter where it came from, has been implemented on a car with a Merc engine, gearbox and rear suspension. That's a hell of a feat. Also people seem to forget AM started last year pretty much last and finished the year maybe 4th fastest, certainly 5th. they developed well. And this year they have much more wind tunnel time compared to the ones in front of them and a couple behind them. I don't expect AM to drop off at all this year, maybe the opposite

[YamahaV10]

Yeah, last year's car was a Red Bull copy (and not a great one, clearly) but this year's car is actually somewhat unique, far from a "clone".

Last year was the trappings of a copy. This year's car was a real copy plus some added improvements from the designer himself.

[jwill189]

Last year was the trappings of a copy. This year's car was a real copy plus some added improvements from the designer himself.

 

There are elements from RB, Ferrari, and Mercedes on this car. It is false for Red Bull management or anyone to say it is a copy when the AMR23 is moderately quicker than last year's RB18.

 

Horner and Marko are notorious for stirring up controversy against its nearest competition, so it's kind of flattering that AM is being recognized as part of the upper echelon.

[YamahaV10]

I don't see anything wrong with what Mr.Stroll did. I just submit that we have a unique set of circumstances with these tricky new regs (thanks Mercedes & ride height rule), the cost cap , the popularity of F1 and struggling big $$ teams, for things to get nasty if there's no code or any rules of the road for head hunting.

Get out the popcorn. It's gonna be fun to watch.

Edited by YamahaV10, 07 March 2023 - 23:05.

[YamahaV10]

What happens when Toto gives Stroll a discount on engines for the Aston Floor blueprints? He's already lobbying his team for a new concept.

[New Britain]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now. This has implications for the sport. What Ferrari , Mercedes and McLaren would do to know those secrets now. 

 

What did Mr. Stroll pay to get Dan Fallows? Lets say he's making 3-4 million dollars a year and it goes against the cost cap. Sure. He has probably settled into his new role at Aston Martin. But what if Ferrari or McLaren offered him 10 or 20 million ? And they could structure it like a signing bonus and not count it under the cost cap or something. It would be worth it for them. McLaren is sitting at rock bottom with millions worth of problems to sort out. They have sponsors that want to see results. As does Ferrari. It would be worth it for them to just head hunt with big checks. 

 

Even under the cost cap, they could halt all development and just save all the money to sign Fallows. Pay him 20-30 million of the cap in one year. Then give him a normal salary the year after. What are the rules in this regard ?

 

Adrien Newey was offered movie star money (his words) from Ferrari. But this was before these new regs and the cost cap. The previous era of Mercedes domination was thought to be more about the engines than the aero. Now there is a few major teams on the back foot with tricky new regulations. And just a handful of engineers that know how to make it work.

Compensation to three highest-paid (non-driver) employees is exempt from capped expenses. If they hired Fallows for more than one of the top three (my guess is that he is now the highest-paid of all), the comp of the person who had been third on the list would then get bumped into the capped amount.

[FNG]

Last year was the trappings of a copy. This year's car was a real copy plus some added improvements from the designer himself.

Pretty hard to make a "real copy" with a different engine different gearbox and different rear suspension.

[vlado]

What happens when Toto gives Stroll a discount on engines for the Aston Floor blueprints? He's already lobbying his team for a new concept.

Nah, Stroll ain’t gonna fold for some discount.. I actually doubt he’d do it if the engines were free ;)

Edited by vlado, 08 March 2023 - 00:13.

[Brawn BGP 001]

What happens when Toto gives Stroll a discount on engines for the Aston Floor blueprints? He's already lobbying his team for a new concept.

No team would agree to that.

[Widefoot2]

Finderthem

I think "Recruiter" is an accepted term, but I quite like "Finderthem" too...

[AustinF1]

So, the car has a Merc PU, rear suspension, and gearbox, different front suspension, deeper ramps beside the sidepods, and ...

 

Can those of you with more technical knowledge than I have add to this list of major differences? I also read above that the AMR23 has design features inspired by Ferrari and Merc as well as RBR. Any detail on those would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Shambolic]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success.

And that's the point where I stopped reading.