142 replies to this topic

[KnucklesAgain]

They can if there's one floor design secret to know. Yes Fallows joined later. But they were preparing the groundwork for the RB copy before he got there

 

So he didn't do it single-handedly?

[AustinF1]

That's what Marko and Toto think

I don't think so. They know better.

 

Even Marko said it wasn't just the Fallows move, but rather the movement of Fallows and several others that made a bigger impact. And really, you still didn't answer the question.

[AustinF1]

They can if there's one floor design secret to know. Yes Fallows joined later. But they were preparing the groundwork for the RB copy before he got there

It's not a copy of the Red Bull. The more you type, the less sense you make.

 

Are there similarities? Of course, just as there are in most of the other cars. 

Edited by AustinF1, 09 March 2023 - 01:41.

[RedRabbit]

One more time - you can't accuse people of copying a design they helped create.

I sense a bit of saltiness at either Aston Martin or Alonso here. Why are McLaren and Ferrari entitled to a top engineer but not Aston?

McLaren already tried 10 years ago to sign Fallows. Red Bull convinced him to stay and came to an undisclosed agreement with Macca.

And seeing how that period went for McLaren, he was obviously grateful enough to RB that he committed nearly another decade to them.

[pdac]

I think AM's start to the new season has surprised and shocked a few people and some want to attribute it solely to the idea that "oh, they must have copied one of the big teams" because, otherwise, small teams are condemned to run around the back of the midfield forever.
 
But some saw beyond their scorecard and saw them putting the pieces in place. Nothing like quoting ones self  :
 

Indeed. I'm optimistic that they are going to really surprise a few people next season.

Edited by pdac, 09 March 2023 - 13:28.

[Clatter]

I think AM's start to the new season has surprised and shocked a few people and some want to attribute it solely to the idea that "oh, they must have copied one of the big teams" because, otherwise, small teams are condemned to run around the back of the midfield forever.

But some saw beyond their scorecard and saw them putting the pieces in place. Nothing like quoting ones self :

Seems to be just the one person in this thread that has a problem. I think Fallows must have run over their dog.

[muelte]

No matter how much RB cry about it, AMR23 is nowhere near a copy of RB. Different suspension scheme both front and rear, different FW concept, different engine with different layout (different layout for elements and its cooling that makes bodywork a lot different: wsterslides, engine cover, airbox..)

Of course there are similarities due to regulations and teams converging to similar concepts on 2nd year of regulations. RB has the best car so obviously they are a clear reference.

AM can't be blamed for bringing in talent and people that know how to make a good car. This is how F1 ha always worked.

Edited by muelte, 11 March 2023 - 18:26.

[YamahaV10]

No matter how much RB cry about it, AMR23 is nowhere near a copy of RB. Different suspension scheme both front and rear, different FW concept, different engine with different layout (different layout for elements and its cooling that makes bodywork a lot different: wsterslides, engine cover, airbox..)

Of course there are similarities due to regulations and teams converging to similar concepts on 2nd year of regulations. RB has the best car so obviously they are a clear reference.

AM can't be blamed for bringing in talent and people that know how to make a good car. This is how F1 ha always worked.

 

All that could be true. But objectively, it looks to me like Red Bull found one underfloor concept that is the game breaker here. And only Aston Martin is the only other team to know it. Sure. The car is dressed up differently. But dressing up cars differently for minute gains here and there is not how you typically vault up the order to the 2nd fastest in the field. 

[DeKnyff]

All that could be true. But objectively, it looks to me like Red Bull found one underfloor concept that is the game breaker here. And only Aston Martin is the only other team to know it. Sure. The car is dressed up differently. But dressing up cars differently for minute gains here and there is not how you typically vault up the order to the 2nd fastest in the field. 

 

So what?

[kumo7]

As long as constructors championship is the main achievement of F1, engineers, technology, knowledge exchanges remain as the main thing to talk about, prohibiting in an incorrect way will damage the sport. Rather I do believe that it must be made more fluent.

Why should an engineer the subject of gardening leave? What he can bring in his brain is the same as what a driver can brings to his new team?

Spying and so force, cheating should be prohibited!

But it is racing to build a better car and the harder he competition is between the teams, the better the championships will be.

Edited by kumo7, 11 March 2023 - 22:12.

[EvilPhil II]

Answers on a postcard.

Dan Fallows was removed by Red Bull Technologies from F1 activities to focus on contributing towards which road vehicle?

[kumo7]

Answers on a postcard.

Dan Fallows was removed by Red Bull Technologies from F1 activities to focus on contributing towards which road vehicle?

 

Is it? and he moved with the car? 

[RedRabbit]

Answers on a postcard.

Dan Fallows was removed by Red Bull Technologies from F1 activities to focus on contributing towards which road vehicle?

That would be some beautiful irony, haha, especially as I read an idea that Red Bull were using the Valkyrie project in preparation for these ground effect regulations.

[KnucklesAgain]

That would be some beautiful irony, haha, especially as I read an idea that Red Bull were using the Valkyrie project in preparation for these ground effect regulations.

 

It does say it was Valkyrie (which was of course developed between Aston Martin and RB Racing Technologies) in the Autosport article about the RB/AM/Fallows gardening leave disputes. 

[baddog]

This thread makes no sense. Things are immensely more civilised and legal than they were long in the past. Go back to the 60s-70s and tell teams they couldn't hire who they want at any time and do whatever the hell they wanted with information and designs and see where you would have got.

[george1981]

You are handing Fallows way too much credit. The entire team of Aston Martin has doubled in size. I rather believe it is due to this investment that Aston Martin finds itself on the right end of the scale at the moment. Not due to the arrival of just one man. Paddy Lowe has shown that one man cant carry a (failing) team.

 

Numerous teams have shown that just throwing money at F1 doesn't guarantee success. I saw a crazy figure on twitter a few days back that said Toyota spent $4 billion on their F1 programme. For that money they finished 4th in the constructors championship once, three poles, three fastest laps, 13 podiums but 0 wins over 8 full seasons. 

 

So I would give some credit to Dan Fallows as he's clearly helping to direct the spending of Aston Martin wisely. I'm not sure where their infrastructure spending comes into the cost cap. 

[muelte]

Big names only don't mean success: in the past we've seen folks like Nicholas Tombazis or Peter Prodromou not succeeding like in their previous teams. They need the right team and resources. Having said that, Fallows and Blandin are simply an stellar duo, and it seems they have now a big team and great resources, so it's hardly surprising they're already delivering results.

[RedRabbit]

It does say it was Valkyrie (which was of course developed between Aston Martin and RB Racing Technologies) in the Autosport article about the RB/AM/Fallows gardening leave disputes.

It's pretty funny that they put Fallows on the Valkyrie project during garden leave, when there was some gossip about them also using the project for ground effect research to help the F1 car.

On his way out the door, they helped him with unrestricted ground effect development ideas 🤣

[RacingFan10]

Its funny all the talk and complaints coming from RB about AM copying their car, when the RB3 of 2007 was the most blatant copy ever seen in F1 (from McLaren)

[PayasYouRace]

There have been far more blatant copies in F1 history, sometimes even getting a team in trouble (Arrows).

No, the RB3 wasn’t a particularly blatant copy. It just had Adrian Newey’s overall concept.

[Collombin]

There have been far more blatant copies in F1 history, sometimes even getting a team in trouble (Arrows).

Tony Southgate steals the design of a car designed by Tony Southgate. It's enough to make you an Arrows fan right there and then.

[New Britain]

Numerous teams have shown that just throwing money at F1 doesn't guarantee success. I saw a crazy figure on twitter a few days back that said Toyota spent $4 billion on their F1 programme. For that money they finished 4th in the constructors championship once, three poles, three fastest laps, 13 podiums but 0 wins over 8 full seasons. 

 

So I would give some credit to Dan Fallows as he's clearly helping to direct the spending of Aston Martin wisely. I'm not sure where their infrastructure spending comes into the cost cap. 

There is a separate cap on infrastructure spending:

 

"Capital Expenditure Limit" means:

1. (a)  in respect of the Full Year Reporting Periods ending on 31 December 2021, 31 December 2022 and 31 December 2023 and 31 December 2024, US Dollars 45,000,000, adjusted (if applicable) for Indexation;

[EvilPhil II]

Answers on a postcard.

What percentage of Aston Martin does Toto own?

[Sterzo]

Answers on a postcard.

What percentage of Aston Martin does Toto own?

0.95% of the separate road car company. Bought before Racing Point became Aston Martin.

 

https://www.independ...t-a9472266.html

Edited by Sterzo, 13 March 2023 - 21:19.

[EvilPhil II]

Increased to what shortly after?

[Sterzo]

You tell us!

[EvilPhil II]

Fernando Alonso’s sensational podium finish resulted in Aston Martin’s stock increasing by 15%, adding $300m (£250m) to its market cap inside 24 hours, according to sports-business reporter Joe Pompliano.

[pdac]

Fernando Alonso’s sensational podium finish resulted in Aston Martin’s stock increasing by 15%, adding $300m (£250m) to its market cap inside 24 hours, according to sports-business reporter Joe Pompliano.

 

Looking at the 1-month chart, it seems they were already on an upward trend, but they did jump a bit (and have since fallen back a little)

[EvilPhil II]

In April 2020, Wolff acquired a 4.95% stake in Aston Martin Lagonda Global Holdings plc as a financial investment, which subsequently diluted to less than 1%

[EvilPhil II]

I'm just saying...

[EvilPhil II]

Looking at the 1-month chart, it seems they were already on an upward trend, but they did jump a bit (and have since fallen back a little)

Since testing?

[New Britain]

Fernando Alonso’s sensational podium finish resulted in Aston Martin’s stock increasing by 15%, adding $300m (£250m) to its market cap inside 24 hours, according to sports-business reporter Joe Pompliano.

That is correct and, as of today, 5 trading days later, the stock has given up almost all the gain and is now 2.4% above where it was immediately before the Bahrain GP.

[RedRabbit]

There have been far more blatant copies in F1 history, sometimes even getting a team in trouble (Arrows).

No, the RB3 wasn’t a particularly blatant copy. It just had Adrian Newey’s overall concept.

So, not that different to the AMR23 then, is it? Which just follows Dan Fallows overall aero concept, which he already worked on at the fizzy drinks place 😁

[PayasYouRace]

So, not that different to the AMR23 then, is it? Which just follows Dan Fallows overall aero concept, which he already worked on at the fizzy drinks place 😁

No, I wouldn’t say so.

[RacingFan10]

AMR23 at least has a % of the mercedes car, which proves it is not that equal to the RB. 

[vlado]

Engineering Academy, how Ferrari works. - SalaStampaRacing

 

 

"It is often said that Scuderia Ferrari does not draw on the technicians of other teams, especially the winning ones, to become competitive again. This is partly true, but you have to think things up and understand why.

 

At the time of Luca Cordero di Montezemolo and Jean Todt, the technicians who made the fortune of Benetton arrived in Ferrari, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne above all; It opened a winning cycle that was difficult to replicate today. Prestige, substantial economic differences, but also a new personal challenge convinced these people to embrace this new project.

 

Now a thousand factors, from quality of life, to Brexit, passing through gardening but also and above all for the Budget cap, limit this "market" of technicians, With the application of the latter things have definitely changed because the financial regulation tells us that only 3 "Top Managers" have no influencs on the annual report, in order of logic they could be the CEO, the Tear Principal and the project manager. 

 

On the other members of the Scuderia you have to make good economic resources, otherwise you go to affect everything on the development of the car, having fewer resources to devote to it. So, it is no longer possible to take technicians from the outside and overpay them to convince them to work for the Red, but the same goes for all the other teams.

 

This is one of the fundamental elements when it comes to designing and developing during the season a car that needs upgrades to be competitive.

 

 

In addition, there is another aspect to explain: since 2017 Ferrari believes and invests in the Motorvehicle University of Emilia Romagna (MUNER) project: strongly desired by the Emilia-Romagna Region, it was born from the synergy between some prestigious universities (University of Bologna, University of Modena, University of Reggio Emilia and University of Parma) and car manufacturers that bring the excellence of Made in Italy to the world.

 

Sinking the historical roots in the territory, with Advanced Automotive Engineering and Advanced Automotive Electronic Engineering. MUNER aims to attract the best university students from all over the world to the region with the aim of training and integrating the engineers of tomorrow, including technicians who develop racing cars, into the world of work.

 

Project developed by one of the most important managers in the automotive sector: Andrea Pontremoli, with the ambition to enhance the territory and not only the companies involved. All this to train the

"talents" of tomorrow at home, preserving a unique heritage in the world.

 

This is one of the many reasons why Scuderia Ferrari often draws on internal resources, believes in its investments looking to the future.

 

We hear more and more about Driver Academy but I believe that Formula 1 now must invest as much as possible on internal human resources, to divert economic investments to other areas, thus looking into different areas within the Scuderia."

[kumo7]

I'm just saying...

That Toto dictate which team to win based on his shares?

[FirstnameLastname]

Fallows now left the team after 2 years

These guys seem to spend more time on gardening leave than actually working these days

Wonder where he’ll end up now. Williams or Audi perhaps?

[garoidb]

Fallows now left the team after 2 years

These guys seem to spend more time on gardening leave than actually working these days

Wonder where he’ll end up now. Williams or Audi perhaps?

 

Is Red Bull a possibility?

[Nathan]

He left the TD position, still with the team.

[taran]

He left the TD position, still with the team.

I think that's polite window dressing while they sort out the final details of his severance package.

Remember when Mike Elliot was replaced by James Allison? Elliot also "remained" at Mercedes before quietly leaving a few months later.....

If the stories of bad blood between Fallows and Newey are true, he won't stay. 

[kumo7]

If this thread is about a merry-go-round of engineers, I mean initiated by himself, then I think it is interesting.

But if this thread is about bosses of the team owners, like AUDI changing the engineers for the sake of making an F1 team of his creation, then I am much against it.

 

Do I think Fallows can find new job? Yes I think so even in the paddock, if he goes with his old pockets. 

[Deeq]

Mr. Stroll has proven that you can buy intellectual property from other teams and put it to work with instant success. Without Dan Fallows, they are probably a very average mid pack team right now. This has implications for the sport. What Ferrari , Mercedes and McLaren would do to know those secrets now.

What did Mr. Stroll pay to get Dan Fallows? Lets say he's making 3-4 million dollars a year and it goes against the cost cap. Sure. He has probably settled into his new role at Aston Martin. But what if Ferrari or McLaren offered him 10 or 20 million ? And they could structure it like a signing bonus and not count it under the cost cap or something. It would be worth it for them. McLaren is sitting at rock bottom with millions worth of problems to sort out. They have sponsors that want to see results. As does Ferrari. It would be worth it for them to just head hunt with big checks.

Even under the cost cap, they could halt all development and just save all the money to sign Fallows. Pay him 20-30 million of the cap in one year. Then give him a normal salary the year after. What are the rules in this regard ?

Adrien Newey was offered movie star money (his words) from Ferrari. But this was before these new regs and the cost cap. The previous era of Mercedes domination was thought to be more about the engines than the aero. Now there is a few major teams on the back foot with tricky new regulations. And just a handful of engineers that know how to make it work.

This has not aged well... Aston Martin is worse (relatively) now (post fallows), just saying